March On Washington

The one that happened on Saturday, September 12th, 2009. The one that had around 1.2-1.7 million people show up. The one that had people of every age and political group despite so many people saying only conservatives went.

I don't consider myself on either side of the political spectrum, which is why I don't think it's right to say that the protesters are all "radical conservative wingnuts". Just putting that out there. I don't want any mud-slinging about either political party going on in this thread like I see on other forums. No calling liberals drunk college kids and no calling conservatives crazy overly religious nutcases. Got it? Good. (yes, those are actually some of the things I see these parties call each other on forums)

Anyway, here are some articles for you to read and discuss:
Wall Street Journal
Associated Content

I will post more if I can find informative ones.

Do you agree/disagree with the protesters? Why?
What is your opinion on the protest itself?
What do you think will happen as a result of it?


PS: Several news stations are saying only conservatives attended and that it was only a few dozen thousand people. The 1.2-1.7 million attendees estimate is made by the Washing D.C. police department, so consider it a reliable source.

I think the whole thing was a waste of time. it looks to me like these are just a bunch of whiny people who want to bitch about actually having to pay to support the government they elected while trying to make themselves sound like a bunch of righteous freedom fighters. nothing is going to come of this. people can whine and complain all they want about how terrible that socialist Obama is, but it's not going to stop anything. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that our role in government starts and ends at the voting booth. After that we leave it up to our elected officials to get things done. That's how a representative democracy works and nothing bothers me more than when people ignore this fact to push their political agenda.

Originally Posted by Tyras

I think the whole thing was a waste of time. it looks to me like these are just a bunch of whiny people who want to bitch about actually having to pay to support the government they elected while trying to make themselves sound like a bunch of righteous freedom fighters. nothing is going to come of this. people can whine and complain all they want about how terrible that socialist Obama is, but it's not going to stop anything. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that our role in government starts and ends at the voting booth. After that we leave it up to our elected officials to get things done. That's how a representative democracy works and nothing bothers me more than when people ignore this fact to push their political agenda.

A lot of them didn't elect these people in.

Leaving out the "socialist Obama" thing (I don't really agree with that)

You should have a say in what your tax dollars are being spent on. Also, it's in the system that if enough people stand up about it, you can impeach almost anyone in office. If the entire nation actually stands up and says "No" to something congress has to listen (unless it has some extremely good reason not to).

What you're saying is that people who have an opinion should just shut up and let the government tell them what to do? That Martin Luther King Jr. should have just shut up and stopped whining about how bad the blacks were treated? That people who want gays to be allowed to be married should shut up and stop whining about not being allowed to have a wedding? That the women who protested to get their rights should have just shut up and accepted life as it is?

Nothing was ever done completely right by allowing the government to control everything and many times Americans have had to put their foot down and state that whatever the government is doing has to stop.

Leaving out whether or not they're right about what they're protesting it is wrong to tell someone that they shouldn't have an opinion, or should keep quiet about it, or shouldn't say that they feel something is wrong. That is one of the things I cannot stand.

Oh, for **** sake, I hate these people. Obama taking away our freedoms? Do they even remember Bush? First of all, the fact that they are practically lemmings to the Insurance Companies' 14 Billion dollar lobbying trough just takes all validity out of their argument. All of these negative things about Obama's health care plan are just festering cesspools of propaganda created by the CEOs of companies like Humana and AARP because they are worried that they will lose their million dollar salaries. You know why? Because Obama's health care plan, particularly the public option, would give them more competition, making the costs even out. They want more profit (which is why they **** us over when we need serious care). These protesters are like god damn petting zoo animals. They're eating out of the palms of the hands of the Insurance Companies and the Republican Leaders. They all scream, "They didn't even read the bill!" Well, you redneck ****tards, let me ask you something. Did you read the bill? Or did you watch thirty seconds of Hannity? I'm guessing the latter.

By the way, I could care less if the Insurance Companies go bankrupt. My mom used to work for one, and trust me on this. They are greedy little bastards, every last one of them. They care only about your money, and not your life.

Edit: If I sound like an ass, it's because I'm tired of idiots being against this bill. Sorry, but I'm just completely fed up with it.

Originally Posted by kreebby

What you're saying is that people who have an opinion should just shut up and let the government tell them what to do? That Martin Luther King Jr. should have just shut up and stopped whining about how bad the blacks were treated? That people who want gays to be allowed to be married should shut up and stop whining about not being allowed to have a wedding? That the women who protested to get their rights should have just shut up and accepted life as it is?

For the record, I object to these comparisons. Blacks were the victims of arbitrary discrimination. Women were the victims of arbitrary discrimination. Homosexuals still are the victims of arbitrary discrimination. These people who object to nationalised healthcare are not the victims of arbitrary discrimination. The way I see it, in drawing these comparisons you're suggesting that somehow, being taxed more because you can afford to pay more, and having that money pay for (*gasp*) an attempt at creating a healthy populace, is just as bad as being hung from a tree because of the colour of your skin. And that's just absurd.

Nothing was ever done completely right by allowing the government to control everything and many times Americans have had to put their foot down and state that whatever the government is doing has to stop.

Leaving out whether or not they're right about what they're protesting it is wrong to tell someone that they shouldn't have an opinion, or should keep quiet about it, or shouldn't say that they feel something is wrong. That is one of the things I cannot stand.

If they have the right to protest, those who oppose them have the right to counter-protest. The only thing that the right to free speech binds is your government - thus, those who are not the government can protest, and those who object to the protesting can complain about it. If you have the right to say that you think what Obama's doing is wrong, the others have a right to say that they think what you are doing is wrong. The only people who can't tell you to shut up are the government.

Originally Posted by Xeves

By the way, I could care less if the Insurance Companies go bankrupt. My mom used to work for one, and trust me on this. They are greedy little bastards, every last one of them. They care only about your money, and not your life.

My mom used to work for one too, and this is definitely a true statement.

Originally Posted by Xeves

Edit: If I sound like an ass, it's because I'm tired of idiots being against this bill. Sorry, but I'm just completely fed up with it.

No worries. I'm fed up with a lot of things too. I don't watch Hannity, and I don't agree with the entire propaganda thing. But I can tell you this: most of the people who don't have health care don't want it.

If you actually get a legitimate full-time job, you will have health care benefits. It's actually required by law that employers provide you with benefits if you work full time. I have dealt with the health care system a lot because my mom was in and out of hospitals constantly when I was growing up. The insurance company didn't want to pay her medical bills, so we took them to court. Of course, they immediately backed down and paid for everything without whining after that.

Our health care system does have major problems, I'll give you that much, but I just don't think that universal health care is the answer (especially with Canada and the UK screaming at us not to do it because it messed up their countries).


Thing is, whenever I say this, people call me a major righty wing-nut and act like I think Obama is a socialist. I don't think Obama's a socialist. I disagree with a lot of what the tea party members are saying. I just get lugged in with them when I mention my opinions on things, and that is REALLY unfair.

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

If they have the right to protest, those who oppose them have the right to counter-protest. The only thing that the right to free speech binds is your government - thus, those who are not the government can protest, and those who object to the protesting can complain about it. If you have the right to say that you think what Obama's doing is wrong, the others have a right to say that they think what you are doing is wrong. The only people who can't tell you to shut up are the government.

You misunderstood me. I was saying that I don't think anyone should tell anyone to just... shut up. Giving opposing views is fine, just don't tell someone to shut up about their opinion. By all means, if you disagree with the tea party members, disagree. Just don't tell them to shut up or call them whiny for protesting. You wouldn't like it if they did the same to you.

Originally Posted by kreebby

Also, it's in the system that if enough people stand up about it, you can impeach almost anyone in office.

Your system was founded on respect for the Rule of Law. "For as in absolute governments the King is Law, so in free countries the Law ought to be King, and there ought to be no other." Not one man, not a hundred people, not a million people, should supercede the law. Only violations of the law are to be punished, and I see no violation of the law being committed by Barack Obama. Impeaching him for his actions would be disregarding the system, not applying it.

You misunderstood me. I was saying that I don't think anyone should tell anyone to just... shut up. Giving opposing views is fine, just don't tell someone to shut up about their opinion. By all means, if you disagree with the tea party members, disagree. Just don't tell them to shut up or call them whiny for protesting. You wouldn't like it if they did the same to you.

I wouldn't, not because they'd be telling me to shut up, but because they're wrong. When my dad made some of the most ignorant and quite frankly retarded comments about an Indian person we knew, I told him he was stupid and to shut the hell up. I don't care if he doesn't like it - his views are horrendously flawed and need to change. Likewise, telling these protestors that they shouldn't be protesting isn't an attempt to stifle their free speech, it's an attempt to get the message across that their opinion is flawed and needs to change - just like their protests are an attempt to get the message across that they believe the government's opinion is flawed and needs to change.

Originally Posted by kreebby

Our health care system does have major problems, I'll give you that much, but I just don't think that universal health care is the answer (especially with Canada and the UK screaming at us not to do it because it messed up their countries).

Thing is, whenever I say this, people call me a major righty wing-nut and act like I think Obama is a socialist. I don't think Obama's a socialist. I disagree with a lot of what the tea party members are saying. I just get lugged in with them when I mention my opinions on things, and that is REALLY unfair.

To be honest, I'm going to call you out as a "right-wing nut" (your words, not mine) right now, because you seem to only be paying attention to the more conservative MPs from our country who are dissing our NHS, as opposed to everyone else in this country, including the head of the conservative party, who want to keep the NHS around and are quite frankly grateful for the right to government-funded healthcare. Many of those who do have a problem with the NHS are more bothered by the beauracracy within the organisation in practice that could be improved with a bit of reform, rather than the actual idea of nationalised healthcare. The Daily Mail also jumps at any chance to highlight medical negligence, but don't try to tell me that negligence doesn't happen under privatized healthcare, or even that it's less likely to occur - knowing that you could lose not just your salary but your job will keep anyone in line, private or national.

And I know of no prominent Canadian figures who are smashing nationalised healthcare to bits, but I know that whatever problems the UK and Canada may be having, European countries with nationalised healthcare are mostly not.

Originally Posted by kreebby

You misunderstood me. I was saying that I don't think anyone should tell anyone to just... shut up. Giving opposing views is fine, just don't tell someone to shut up about their opinion. By all means, if you disagree with the tea party members, disagree. Just don't tell them to shut up or call them whiny for protesting. You wouldn't like it if they did the same to you.

I wouldn't say they were whining if they had a solid argument. However, all in all, they are whining. I don't think they should shut up though. If anything, they should keep it up! It's wonderful entertainment. By the way, if these people are so concerned about their freedoms being raped and our tax-payer money being wasted, where were they back when we entered an illegal war that practically caused this recession?

Edit: Make that TWO illegal wars

Originally Posted by kreebby

A lot of them didn't elect these people in.

ithink Obama got about 52% of the popular vote and the democrats were given a fillibuster-proof majority in congress. I think that means most people voted for a democrat government.

You should have a say in what your tax dollars are being spent on.

That's why we have elections. If so many people don't like what the current congress is doing, then they are more than welcome to vote in a new group of *******s to screw us over in 2010.

Also, it's in the system that if enough people stand up about it, you can impeach almost anyone in office.

not without it being an absolute mockery of justice. the president actually has to do something illegal before they can be impeached. Obama has done no such thing so all of these people calling for his impeachment are just blowing hot air.
If the entire nation actually stands up and says "No" to something congress has to listen (unless it has some extremely good reason not to).

What you're saying is that people who have an opinion should just shut up and let the government tell them what to do? That Martin Luther King Jr. should have just shut up and stopped whining about how bad the blacks were treated? That people who want gays to be allowed to be married should shut up and stop whining about not being allowed to have a wedding? That the women who protested to get their rights should have just shut up and accepted life as it is?

Those were at least valid concerns. These protesters are complaining about taxes. the federal government has the right to charge taxes. We are given the proper representation to ensure that our taxes remain fair. No one likes to pay taxes, but we are the only people I know of who expects their government to fix everything when things go wrong and then get angry when we find out that we have to pay for it. That's like telling the doctor that you shouldn't have to pay for him to fix your broken arm. These protesters are complaining about having to do something that is vital to the country's survival. So in this case, yes they should just shut up and pay their taxes just like everyone else has to.

Nothing was ever done completely right by allowing the government to control everything and many times Americans have had to put their foot down and state that whatever the government is doing has to stop.

Got any examples of this?

Leaving out whether or not they're right about what they're protesting it is wrong to tell someone that they shouldn't have an opinion, or should keep quiet about it, or shouldn't say that they feel something is wrong. That is one of the things I cannot stand.

turnaround is a real bitch isn't it? I generally have no problem with people protesting. But I've never seen something such a pointless protest before in my life

Originally Posted by Tyras

turnaround is a real bitch isn't it? I generally have no problem with people protesting. But I've never seen something such a pointless protest before in my life

There were people protesting in D.C. a few years ago saying that the Government should be abolished and that we should all become Anarchists.

I'm just sayin'.

Hey wait, that ****'s old news. Dr. King's speech is over 40 years old and nobody cares for this Civil Rights bull**** anymore. Get over it.

Oh wait, wrong one. My bad.

The only time I will ever care for these protests if they are riots. These peaceful "tea party" protests are having no effect. America, get some balls and start rioting if we wanna get our point arcoss.

Originally Posted by Snow_Storm

The only time I will ever care for these protests if they are riots. These peaceful "tea party" protests are having no effect. America, get some balls and start rioting if we wanna get our point arcoss.

All rioting does is give your opponents an excuse to demonize you.

Originally Posted by kreebby

If you actually get a legitimate full-time job, you will have health care benefits. It's actually required by law that employers provide you with benefits if you work full time.

One thing so many conservatives want to say is that "You can get health care if you work really hard and get a good job. If you can't afford healthcare, it's because you're lazy and a Welfare leech."

That's so rude and classist.

There are millions of people who work hard every day, have families, and are good people, yet they can't afford healthcare, or they work 2 or 3 jobs, all part time because that's all they can find in this job market, and they don't work enough at either job to qualify for healtchcare. Or maybe they have it but then end up getting screwed by the insurance company and going bankrupt anyway.

The fact is is that Healthcare should not be tied to employment. Every American citizen deserves to be treated like a human being and have access to basic healthcare. none of this $70- $100 just because you got strep throat, or draining your savings just for breaking a pinky.

I find it laughable that you really think that the majority of uninsured people like it that way.

Might I remind you that in order for a society to function, there has to be part-time and menial jobs. Someone has to stock store shelves. Someone has to cash out your groceries. Someone has to work a machine for $9 an hour. Does that mean those are lazy people who don't deserve to be respected and valued by their society and government?

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

Thank you so much! I've been looking for that cartoon for months

The right to live, in Its basic form is the strongest right. Waiting on a hospital bed and not being touched until your insurance details are cleared, Is awful in any context, Having people recovering from cancer living in parks as they had to sell there house to pay for the bill is worse and its time for people to just grow up and stop being so greedy for a few extra pence, The NHS has flaws but having a service there that helps you no matter how poor you are, Cancer or Pregnancy its a safety net worth having.

Originally Posted by Margar

One thing so many conservatives want to say is that "You can get health care if you work really hard and get a good job. If you can't afford healthcare, it's because you're lazy and a Welfare leech."

That's so rude and classist.

That is extremely rude. I would never call someone lazy and a Welfare leech because they couldn't find a full time job. Especially not with this economy.

Originally Posted by Margar

The fact is is that Healthcare should not be tied to employment. Every American citizen deserves to be treated like a human being and have access to basic healthcare. none of this $70- $100 just because you got strep throat, or draining your savings just for breaking a pinky.

Why not require part time jobs to offer you health care benefits instead of making everything universal? Make it so that if you're 18 or older (or emancipated) and not currently covered by health insurance, the place you work for part-time MUST provide you with benefits. That would be a much easier and cheaper way of doing things, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Margar

I find it laughable that you really think that the majority of uninsured people like it that way.

I have never met a person in my life who lacks health care because they can't get it in the first place. Many of them simply refuse health care because they don't think they need it. A lot of people I know haven't been to a doctor in years and haven't had any real health problems. Perhaps in other areas, it's different.

Originally Posted by Margar

Might I remind you that in order for a society to function, there has to be part-time and menial jobs. Someone has to stock store shelves. Someone has to cash out your groceries. Someone has to work a machine for $9 an hour. Does that mean those are lazy people who don't deserve to be respected and valued by their society and government?

I am not warranting this with a response, because I never called anyone lazy. Also, I am not a fool who thinks part-time jobs aren't necessary. Perhaps you should stop assuming you know what other people are thinking.

Originally Posted by kreebby

Why not require part time jobs to offer you health care benefits instead of making everything universal? Make it so that if you're 18 or older (or emancipated) and not currently covered by health insurance, the place you work for part-time MUST provide you with benefits. That would be a much easier and cheaper way of doing things, don't you think?

the point of part time labor is that the employer doesn't have to provide benefits because it makes the labor cheaper. If you force employers to give benefits to absolutely everyone then businesses are going to be burdened with extra costs or they'll drop part time jobs entirely. alternatively, we could have single payer insurance through the government and then businesses would have more money to devote to other things since they don't have to shell out for health insurance.

I have never met a person in my life who lacks health care because they can't get it in the first place. Many of them simply refuse health care because they don't think they need it. A lot of people I know haven't been to a doctor in years and haven't had any real health problems. Perhaps in other areas, it's different.

Really? because I've met plenty of people who can't get insurance and can't leave their jobs because they'd be uninsurable if they did. In fact, if it weren't for employer based coverage most Americans wouldn't be able to afford the current ammount of coverage that they have.

Originally Posted by kreebby

No worries. I'm fed up with a lot of things too. I don't watch Hannity, and I don't agree with the entire propaganda thing. But I can tell you this: most of the people who don't have health care don't want it.

What on earth?

Perhaps in it's current form where you pay into a system that later drops you when you get sick, I could understand people not wanting to be a part of that, but certainly no one is going to say that they'd prefer not having health coverage.

It's nearly impossible to afford most medical treatment without insurance, and those without insurance are certainly not going to yearly check-ups to catch their cancer early or prevent their oncoming heart disease. Preventative medicine does quite a good job of cutting costs in the long run, and I guarantee no one that is uninsured is getting such preventative treatment.

Originally Posted by kreebby

If you actually get a legitimate full-time job, you will have health care benefits. It's actually required by law that employers provide you with benefits if you work full time.

The problem is, not everyone who lacks a full-time job deserves to be unhealthy and face untimely, preventable deaths. People working part-time jobs are not worthless, whether we're experiencing the good times or bad times economically. Everyone alive deserves to stay so.

Even those lacking jobs entirely should be treated (and they are at your expense). A large number of homeless people are held back because of mental illnesses that are not treated.

Originally Posted by http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/Mental_Illness.html

Mental disorders prevent people from carrying out essential aspects of daily life, such as self-care, household management and interpersonal relationships. Homeless people with mental disorders remain homeless for longer periods of time and have less contact with family and friends. Many of the mentally ill (especially those with severe disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depression), both the homeless and others, often misinterpret the guidance of others and react irrationally because of their condition(s). This pushes away friends and family and other caregivers occasionally leading to homelessness or a longer a period of homelessness (Mental Illness, Chronic Homelessness: An American Disgrace, 2000).

And providing mental treatment saves money and often gets homeless individuals off of the street.

Originally Posted by http://www.calpsych.org/publications/access/homelessness.html

AB 34 (Steinberg, 1999) funds community mental health programs that provide voluntary outreach, access to medicines and a variety of support services for the homeless who suffer from mental illness. An initial investment of $10 million produced millions in savings by reducing hospitalization and incarceration. Because of AB 34’s success, the program was expanded in 2000 to 34 cities and counties, helping 4,720 homeless mentally ill individuals. As a result, state and local governments are seeing a $23 million savings through an 81% reduction in jail days, a 66% reduction in hospital days and an 80% reduction in homelessness.

Oh and did I already mention: if someone is poor and enters the Emergency Room, you're picking up the tab anyway. Just making sure you know. The real people getting screwed by the current system is people who can technically afford treatment, like middle class families.

Originally Posted by kreebby

Our health care system does have major problems, I'll give you that much, but I just don't think that universal health care is the answer (especially with Canada and the UK screaming at us not to do it because it messed up their countries).

I think overall most people with universal care like it. I must say, I've never heard of them screaming for us not to or crying out to prevent the tragedy of universal care.

And really, of all the things we're wasting our tax dollars on, is health care really the worst? I think it's a lot more worthy an investment than a lot of the earmarks we throw into bills.

Originally Posted by kreebby

Why not require part time jobs to offer you health care benefits instead of making everything universal? Make it so that if you're 18 or older (or emancipated) and not currently covered by health insurance, the place you work for part-time MUST provide you with benefits. That would be a much easier and cheaper way of doing things, don't you think?

This puts even more of a burden on businesses, and aren't we supposed to be trying to lift the burden off of them during an economic recession? They could certainly be using these theoretical funds for better things like hiring more people, expanding, upping wages, investing, etc.

Originally Posted by kreebby

I have never met a person in my life who lacks health care because they can't get it in the first place. Many of them simply refuse health care because they don't think they need it. A lot of people I know haven't been to a doctor in years and haven't had any real health problems. Perhaps in other areas, it's different.

I know a number of people whose families are unable to afford to buy health care on their own, but would really like to have it there just in case. I also know a few who can't be insured on their own because of pre-existing conditions and their only chance of insurance is employer based.

To me, this is wrong. We're all people here, we all deserve to live and live healthily.

Originally Posted by Snow_Storm

Hey wait, that ****'s old news. Dr. King's speech is over 40 years old and nobody cares for this Civil Rights bull**** anymore. Get over it.

Oh wait, wrong one. My bad.

The only time I will ever care for these protests if they are riots. These peaceful "tea party" protests are having no effect. America, get some balls and start rioting if we wanna get our point arcoss.

The problem is, these idiots are protesting against the wrong thing. The "tea party" protests were nothing but idiots *****ing about having to pay taxes. No, the real revolution is when Congress itself is no longer being lobbied.