Your Stance on Death

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

So there should be a dictator who doesn't abuse their power and who ONLY acts in the world's best interest? I thought you didn't believe in utopia.

It's the old story of the great ship-of-state, the philosopher king.

It's merely one image of a conceivable Utopia. It is ironically synonymous with dictatorship, minus the scary cultural overtones.

Thou, too, sail on, O Ship of State!
Sail on, O Union, strong and great!
Humanity with all its fears,
With all the hopes of future years,
Is hanging breathless on thy fate!
We know what Master laid thy keel,
What Workmen wrought thy ribs of steel,
Who made each mast, and sail, and rope,
What anvils rang, what hammers beat,
In what a forge and what a heat
Were shaped the anchors of thy hope!
Fear not each sudden sound and shock,
'Tis of the wave and not the rock;
'Tis but the flapping of the sail,
And not a rent made by the gale!
In spite of rock and tempest's roar,
In spite of false lights on the shore,
Sail on, nor fear to breast the sea!
Our hearts, our hopes, are all with thee.
Our hearts, our hopes, our prayers, our tears,
Our faith triumphant o'er our fears,
Are all with thee, -are all with thee!

also

Lo the seas are high, the black winds lace
Bitter black salt waters high, the good ship Academe
Founders. Strong planks spring, the mast yields,
Courses are torn to tatters, the college catalog
Gapes wide open. No hand on the helm, the rudder weaves
Now this way now that. The helmsman's gone
Overboard, the men are trying to oar a small dinghy
Capsizing, their cries unheard by Commissioner of Education.
Guide us, Commissioner, to wisdom, hear us now,
Straighten our ways and makes the mad waves straight.
Give us a destiny, a harbor safe, oil the waters raging
Glibly with the unguents of academic persuasion,
And let us sail smoothly into port, picking up
Along the way a few surviving Classical Studies Majors,
Seconded by favorable winds. At last a firm hand
Guiding our pathways over the purple sea,
At last success, and the double sweet savoring
Of harmony, better salaries, trust in tenure, TIAA
Coming at last after disaster, with a fair wind favoring,
Nothing less than sailing into Corinth's bay.

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

Then I edit my statement: You keep telling me that my world isn't a eutopia. :|

What's this Eutopia that you and Anann are going on about? Is it somehow different from Utopia?

Originally Posted by Devia Erasmus

It's the old story of the great ship-of-state, the philosopher king.

It's merely one image of a conceivable Utopia. It is ironically synonymous with dictatorship, minus the scary cultural overtones.

The problem with totalitarianism, even the most well-meaning, is that there is little incentive for the dictator to do what's best for the people once he's in power.

I just answered your question.

Originally Posted by Devia Erasmus

I just answered your question.

So a eutopia is a utopia by dictatorship? Ewww.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

What's this Eutopia that you and Anann are going on about? Is it somehow different from Utopia?

It is. Utopia means "no place" in Greek, and is a pun on the word "Eutopia", meaning "good place". Thomas More was basically saying "hurr no such thing as a perfect world", painting a "eutopia" as a place that can't actually exist much like you are, thus, "utopia" is a no-place.

The problem with totalitarianism, even the most well-meaning, is that there is little incentive for the dictator to do what's best for the people once he's in power.

Except for personal desire. Just because he's not getting anything from people other than obedience doesn't mean there's nothing in it for him if he gives them what they deserve.

if I read lord zero/annan's posts correctly then their version is highly compatable with the scenario painted quite well in book six of Plato's Republic.

Don't knock it till you've read it.

http://www.constitution.org/pla/repub_01.htm

http://www.constitution.org/pla/repub_06.htm

*edit*

also pay close attention to the spelling.

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

It is. Utopia means "no place" in Greek, and is a pun on the word "Eutopia", meaning "good place". Thomas More was basically saying "hurr no such thing as a perfect world", painting a "eutopia" as a place that can't actually exist much like you are, thus, "utopia" is a no-place.

I see. I'm not saying utopia is UTTERLY impossible, I'm just saying that that dictatorship definitely wouldn't accomplish it. Not permanently.

Except for personal desire. Just because he's not getting anything from people other than obedience doesn't mean there's nothing in it for him if he gives them what they deserve.

Personal desire is subject to whim. If I were some great leader, and every once in a while I got bored with being perfect and had a man executed for my entertainment, then an otherwise perfect utopia wouldn't be worth it.

I am firmly of the opinion that human beings naturally test the boundaries of what they can and can't get away with, and so a man who has no boundaries imposed on him would naturally go a bit crazy. PERHAPS you could find a man who would resist the temptation for an entire lifetime, but consecutively perfect leaders? It's a crapshoot.

In any case, this is quite a far cry from discussing mortality, so getting back on-topic...

Originally Posted by Devia Erasmus

if I read lord zero/annan's posts correctly then their version is highly compatable with the scenario painted quite well in book six of Plato's Republic.

Don't knock it till you've read it.

http://www.constitution.org/pla/repub_01.htm

http://www.constitution.org/pla/repub_06.htm

*edit*

also pay close attention to the spelling.

I'll have to get round to reading that, but not now.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

I'll have to get round to reading that, but not now.

Oh, but it's SO GOOD. XD

Why wait?

Originally Posted by Devia Erasmus

Oh, but it's SO GOOD. XD

Why wait?

Because it's half two in the morning and I'm soon heading to bed.

Anyhoo, I'm sort of weird. I enjoy being alive, I love my family, I have fun with my friends and I derive great pleasure from my hobbies, but I'm not really worried about dying. As in, if I found out that I was going to die tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I'd be okay with it (though probably a bit startled at first). I can't really explain why. Death just doesn't seem like it'd be too bad. On the other hand, that's easy to say when since I'm 25 and have my whole life ahead of me, but I might not feel the same when actually confronted with my impending death.

What I can say with certainty, though, is that I'd be far more scared by the prospect of living forever. A couple of centuries might be fun, but after an eon or two, I can safely say the novelty would have worn off.

oh, so you're tired and you're not afraid of death but you might be afraid of dying.

that suffices I suppose.

Also, I didn't know you were 25.

I too would be more afraid of living forever.

As I said earlier, I'm sure I could find plenty of ways to occupy an eternity. Up until the destruction of the Earth anyway, at which point I'd hope we'd colonised elsewhere or I'd just be bored.

Sad that people can't imagine a benevolent dictator, but they can imagine benevolent gods. Am I the only one who finds that ironic?


Why should anyone need incentive to be good? You act like a world where progress is constantly being made is so boring that you need to kill people for amusement.

That's stupid. Maybe you just didn't read what we were proposing.

This ruler isn't being selfless, they are doing what will benefit EVERYONE, guess what? Everyone includes yourself.

Originally Posted by Devia Erasmus

oh, so you're tired and you're not afraid of death but you might be afraid of dying.

that suffices I suppose.

I'm not tired, I'm just a bit 'easy come, easy go' about it. If I died tomorrow, I could at least take comfort in the knowledge that I've enjoyed the ride while it lasted. No-one can ask for more than that, really.

Also, I didn't know you were 25.

I too would be more afraid of living forever.

What age did you think I was?

Originally Posted by Lord Zero

As I said earlier, I'm sure I could find plenty of ways to occupy an eternity. Up until the destruction of the Earth anyway, at which point I'd hope we'd colonised elsewhere or I'd just be bored.

No offence, but I seriously doubt you've thought that through. Forever is longer than 1,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years.

Originally Posted by Anann

Sad that people can't imagine a benevolent dictator, but they can imagine benevolent gods. Am I the only one who finds that ironic?

I can imagine A benevolent dictator. There have been rare instances. The problem is that they don't live forever, and their successors aren't usually as benevolent.

Why should anyone need incentive to be good? You act like a world where progress is constantly being made is so boring that you need to kill people for amusement.

As I've said, human being naturally test their own boundaries. They constantly try to see what they can get away with. A man who has NO boundaries will do a lot of testing, and not all of it good. It's one of the reasons why celebrities do ridiculous amounts of drugs and often drink-drive: because they subconsciously think they can get away with it, and are often proven right.

That's stupid. Maybe you just didn't read what we were proposing.

As before, OBVIOUSLY me disagreeing with you means that I'm so stupid that I must have misunderstood you.

This ruler isn't being selfless, they are doing what will benefit EVERYONE, guess what? Everyone includes yourself.

Do you honestly think it humanly possible to give everyone exactly what they want? No, what's 'best for anyone' is not the same as what's 'best for each individual'. Compromise is required. And someone with the power to make decisions for everyone will do what's best for themselves while PERHAPS attempting to get other people a half-decent deal.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

No offence, but I seriously doubt you've thought that through. Forever is longer than 1,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years.

Okay firstly "the destruction of the Earth" is going to be a lot sooner than whatever the number you've posted is, like ten billion years from now maximum because our sun will die and consume this planet. Secondly, in 9 (googolplex zeroes) years, molecules will actually just fall apart because protons only have a capacity for existence of so many years, meaning I would eventually die as soon as existence itself dies.

I can imagine A benevolent dictator. There have been rare instances. The problem is that they don't live forever, and their successors aren't usually as benevolent.

The only historical instance I can think of involving a "benevolent" dictator is the famous Draco, and despite the use of the term "Draconian", people often forget that he was actually popular.

You can only imagine evil, I feel bad for you.

Sorry but what is good for this world may in fact not be good for people who enjoy exploiting others and their environments.

Too bad for them.

I don't need to know what you think is good for you. If I had the power, I could make the world better quite easily. This is with just human resources.

All this world needs is direction.

Originally Posted by Anann

You can only imagine evil, I feel bad for you.

That's the thing; I'm not. I'm imagining a person who is mostly good, but who can be selfish sometimes. So basically: everyone.

Sorry but what is good for this world may in fact not be good for people who enjoy exploiting others and their environments.

Too bad for them.

Such as a dictator.

I don't need to know what you think is good for you. If I had the power, I could make the world better quite easily. This is with just human resources.

All this world needs is direction.

Sounds like election year promises to me.

EVERYBODY claims that they would be able to run things better. What have you accomplished in your life already to back up this claim?

There are checks and balances in place for a reason.

For the wrong reasons.

You keep making these assumptions but you are neglecting how it worked in the past.

Ever heard of the Roman Empire?

You also completely ignore the selfishness inherent in making the world a better place.

That is in no way selfless because YOU live on this planet too.

They would be giving nothing up, they'd still exist in this world, and all progress would positively affect their lives as well.

Dictatorship can work.

Yeah, dictatorship could work if you had a benevolent person running the show. But he would also have to be very saavy and keen on keeping his opponents in check. He wouldn't have them killed or imprisoned, instead he would make them politically impotent. He would convince the people to ignore them like a bunch of ludicrous flies. He wouldn't legislate anything constricting their basic freedoms like speech and owning land. This wouldn't just require an exceptional quality of character but also skill.

So yeah a dictatorship like that would work...for about the duration of the dictator's life. When he dies, there isn't much guarantee that his replacement would be like him. Unless there is a measure he implemented to find such a successor or a means avoid death. Then it still work beyond his lifetime.

So with those given circumstances. But for some reason it still creeps me out.

Originally Posted by Red Dingo

Yeah, dictatorship could work if you had a benevolent person running the show. But he would also have to be very saavy and keen on keeping his opponents in check. He wouldn't have them killed or imprisoned, instead he would make them politically impotent. He would convince the people to ignore them like a bunch of ludicrous flies. He wouldn't legislate anything constricting their basic freedoms like speech and owning land. This wouldn't just require an exceptional quality of character but also skill.

So yeah a dictatorship like that would work...for about the duration of the dictator's life. When he dies, there isn't much guarantee that his replacement would be like him. Unless there is a measure he implemented to find such a successor or a means avoid death. Then it still work beyond his lifetime.

So with those given circumstances. But for some reason it still creeps me out.

Distrust of another person to be capable of that is what's creeping you out.

In this hypothetical there are no opponents.

this is like emperor of the world.