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Old 08-09-2009, 07:19 PM
BEHIND THE MASK BEHIND THE MASK is a male United States BEHIND THE MASK is offline
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"To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

This topic references such points as past warfare, historical and current relations between states, and the belief of ownership to territory (mostly, that of a country to claim it as its own)

Such examples would be disputes such as:

::: East Prussia (Currently occupied by Poland) - Many consider East Prussia the rightful land of German, having traces as far back as the Teutonic Knights, and being part of the main power were Germany rose (Prussia)

::: Alsace-Lorraine (Currently occupied by France) - Another disputed territory considerd by some to be German, it was occupied by France, but lost in the Franco-Prusso War (1870) until won back following World War I. Some would dispute it is rightfully German Territory.

::: Gibraltor (Currently occupied by the UK) - Some would say this small little rock controlling the entryway to the Mediterranean Sea rightfully belong to Spain. This one however, isn't as disputed as others.

::: Israel (Currently occupied by Israel) - A vicious dispute with a war to go along with it. Some sides argue in favor of Israel, other for the Palestinians, and others for a two state solution. This can be a touchy subject, with aspects of racism, religion and violence thrown about.

::: South Ossetia (Currently occupied by South Ossetia/Russia) - A more recent conflict that ended with war between Russia and Georgia. Georgia considers the territory theirs but Russia supports the regions independance from Georgia, perhaps less so for the people and more in the favor of their own interests against the pro-Western Georgians.

These are only some examples. This topic is to explore, not so much the rightful owner of these regions, but what gives a state or power the right to govern these territories, or even claim land at all.

Can historical ties solely allow for a country to claim the rights of another? Sour feelings after a war where territory was lost, will that justify that country retaking said land? The say of the people in that region, even if such was effected by massacre or deportation (Kalingrad for example?)? What other factors might effect thiese disputes.

What effects do nationalism have upon these veiws? Can anyone be justified in occupying territory (whether it be the US with Manifest Destiny or The Soviet Union occuping the Baltic States or invading Finland so they can have a buffer for their own territory)? What are all your opinions comrades?

Also, please lets keep this civil, eh?
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:17 AM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

All of them belong to the human race.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:18 PM
Condi Rice Condi Rice is a male Condi Rice is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

Hmmm

Well I believe a country should only declare war against another country if they had attacked them first. The victor should be able to give a fair trial to the former leaders of that country and pass a sentence for the crimes they have committed. The public are innocent and the country that has won should not put them under any military oppression nor force their own ideology upon the public. The country that has won the war should remove any reasonable possible forms of threat within the country and establish a new government. A government that is elected by the people.

That is my opinion on the matter. I know it is not applicable to all circumstances however I strongly believe civilians should not be mistreated during and after the war. They should be given rights and not be put under any form of military oppression.

As for the Palestine and Israel conflict I believe the first step is to give Palestinian citizens rights and not be put under any form of military oppression. Jews, Muslims and Christians in the past did live peacefully in Palestine. After the Holocaust, the Zionist regime used the holocaust as an excuse to take Palestine. They are the cause for this conflict. That was not needed. In Iran, Jews are a minority and President Ahamainjead has given them rights and the Jews have their own representative in the law making system and how the country is governed. This can work in Palestine as well, were Jews and Muslim can live together. So there is no need for a two states. One state where both Jews and Muslims have equal share in power and all the citizens have equal rights.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:33 PM
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by Twilight Joker View Post

That is my opinion on the matter. I know it is not applicable to all circumstances however I strongly believe civilians should not be mistreated during and after the war. They should be given rights and not be put under any form of military oppression.
Would you say that standard is just to be applied to today or all of previous history, though it might be to late for that.

People will usually justify past evils, saying it was a different time or acceptable... that may be true, but they may use this arguement to justify their claims of land...

Such as some of the people who argue over German Territory, despite the fact that it was won through war, and before the unification there really was little move for a single German State, perhaps except for the Holy Roman Empire.

It does seem there is a bit of a double standard applied throughout history that some do not consider, or care for...

Such as people who argue that Poland, France and Russia stole land from Germany, while some centuries before it was Prussia (Germany), Austria and Russia who eagerly partioned Poland.

Then there is also the hypocracisy of some of the crazier people who argue that Turkey should return Thrace (I believe) which also has Istanbul/Constantinople... There arguements usually claim that this land either belonged to Ancient Greeks (making it traditional land) or was occupied by the East Roman Empire, and many argue the Byzantines were more Greek then Roman. However, some of these people forget that, in the case of the ancient Greeks, they were never really united, rather a collection of differing City States ranging from the militaristic Spartans to the Democratic Greeks... The case of the Byzantines can be argued because it was founded from the Roman Empire, and though as history may have made it more 'Greek' the fact remains that doesn't really make the territory Greek... Course, this is not really a credible arguement, rather more nationalistic between Greeks and Turks.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:50 PM
Condi Rice Condi Rice is a male Condi Rice is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

^
I think if the past conflicts have been resolved there is no need start another war to claim land back. If the countries are in stable conditions, all the citizens have rights and are safe...there is no need to start another conflict. We should try not to use past events to justify more bloodshed all for the sake of pride, land, nationalism and religion.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:58 PM
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Joker View Post
^
I think if the past conflicts have been resolved there is no need start another war to claim land back. If the countries are in stable conditions, all the citizens have rights and are safe...there is no need to start another conflict. We should try not to use past events to justify more bloodshed all for the sake of pride, land and nationalism.
I absolutely agree, I'm just stating other arguements...

Though, in relevance to what you have said... had World War II not have involved things such a racial superiority, or genocide, would the Germans have been justified in there wars (Though, its arguable if they would have stopped after retaking their land)

Afterall, it is hard to say if the Treaty of Versailles was really an acceptable end... all blame on the Germans, stripping of land, payments and all the other things done so the allies could take revenge... Its no good excuse for war, and by no means an excuse for what followed, but most seem to accept that World War I was not trully resolved with the Treaty...
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:34 PM
Hell Hawk Hell Hawk is a male United States Hell Hawk is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

I believe in the event of a war, the losing country should be allowed to keep all of its original territory (but none of the territory it may have taken in the course of the war), as long as it gives monetary compensation for the damages it caused to neighboring countries.
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:40 PM
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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I believe in the event of a war, the losing country should be allowed to keep all of its original territory (but none of the territory it may have taken in the course of the war), as long as it gives monetary compensation for the damages it caused to neighboring countries.
Perhaps, however in alot (possibly most) of the cases, it seems one of the reasons for war is for territorial expansion, whether it be to attain (or so they may claim) farmland, make room for settlers, attain much needed resources, or create independent states (Kosovo, Palestine, Ossetia, in these cases it seems quite difficult to end a war without the lose or gain of territory)

The UN would have a good hand in enforcing what you propose, however confidence in the UN is waning and it seems to be going the way of the League of Nations, some would argue.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:01 PM
Condi Rice Condi Rice is a male Condi Rice is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK View Post
I absolutely agree, I'm just stating other arguements...

Though, in relevance to what you have said... had World War II not have involved things such a racial superiority, or genocide, would the Germans have been justified in there wars (Though, its arguable if they would have stopped after retaking their land)

Afterall, it is hard to say if the Treaty of Versailles was really an acceptable end... all blame on the Germans, stripping of land, payments and all the other things done so the allies could take revenge... Its no good excuse for war, and by no means an excuse for what followed, but most seem to accept that World War I was not trully resolved with the Treaty...
Well I don't know much about World War 1 (feel free to correct me if I make any mistakes), however if it was the case where Germany did loose land that belonged to them after the Treaty of Versailles then they should deserve to be the ownership of that land.

However I believe there should be criteria to be met. If land has been taken forcibly and if the citizens have no rights/under oppression, and these two criteria are met, then they should be allowed to have their land back. I personally would like to prevent any further conflicts from developing.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:10 PM
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by Twilight Joker View Post
Well I don't know much about World War 1 (feel free to correct me if I make any mistakes), however if it was the case where Germany did loose land that belonged to them after the Treaty of Versailles then they should deserve to be the ownership of that land..
Somewhat, but not entirely... Alasce-Loraine was a territory that France lost in 1870, but regained following World War I. It is debated who rightfully owns it, and the French entered the war believing they were rightfully taking it back.

To the east, the Germans had a better case with Gdansk and surronding land controlled by Poland. However, one could claim if hypocritical as before the war, Germany occupied some of Poland, Prussia having taken part in its partioning.

The occupation of the Rhineland, perhaps that could have been done with out.

The loss of Asian and African colonies to Great Britian and Japan, no case for Germany, this is the way of Imperialist powers.

Hoewever, despite their losses, this does not excuse Germany's later invasions and taking of Austria, Czeckoslavakia, France, Yugoslavia, Greece or the swathes of Russia lost during the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Joker View Post
However I believe there should be criteria to be met. If land has been taken forcibly and if the citizens have no rights/under oppression, and these two criteria are met, then they should be allowed to have their land back. I personally would like to prevent any further conflicts from developing.
True, but one must consider the effects of migration, birthrates, the effects of previous invasions with populations being shifted or uprotted... I agree, I would prefer there be no more conflicts as well.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:48 PM
3heartchallenge 3heartchallenge is a male 3heartchallenge is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

Quote:
As for the Palestine and Israel conflict I believe the first step is to give Palestinian citizens rights and not be put under any form of military oppression.
Really? do you mean Arabs have no rights in Israel? and they are oppressed? Because I understand Muslims have the same rights as any Jewish citizen, except they are not obliged to join the army.
Quote:
Jews, Muslims and Christians in the past did live peacefully in Palestine. After the Holocaust, the Zionist regime used the holocaust as an excuse to take Palestine. They are the cause for this conflict. That was not needed.
Do you really blame "the Zionist Regime" for wanting a state of their own after being so highly discriminated and massacred. Also, there ARE 21 arab states, and there's the catholic vatican city. What's so terrible of having a Jewish state (with 20% of the citizens not being jewish).
Quote:
In Iran, Jews are a minority and President Ahamainjead has given them rights and the Jews have their own representative in the law making system and how the country is governed.
And still, President Ahmadinejad claims the Holocaust never happened and that Israel must be wiped off the map. On the second point, Arabs also have representatives in the lawmaking system. (currently 13 in the knesset)

Quote:
This can work in Palestine as well, were Jews and Muslim can live together. So there is no need for a two states. One state where both Jews and Muslims have equal share in power and all the citizens have equal rights.
"Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where women may vote."-Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 2001.

I'm sorry for going somewhere that you didn't want this to go, but I really felt like I need to comment on that.

Getting more on the current discussion: Of course we would all love if no more conflicts develop, but wishing won't help anything. Were a long way to becoming a "planetary society", but conflicts will go on until we ever achieve it.
I believe there are no rightful claims by which a land can be claimed of someone. It might not be the nicest thing, but power is the only true measure as to who can occupy what land. It might not be the correct way, but it's the way things go.
Even so, the taking of other lands through power have in the end helped the human race in many ways, by a sort of natural selection if you will. But of course, you could also argue that the powerful should be morally obliged to simply help the less powerful, and help them grow without just taking control. But once again, we are human, and that's not the ways things have gone most times throughout history.
Please do not confuse this comment as me saying "leave things the way they are, in the end things will work out", I am simply saying that the way things should be are almost always not the way things are, there are no "rightful" owners of ANY land. And yes, at every land were there is oppression, everything possible should be done to disestablish it.
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:03 AM
Condi Rice Condi Rice is a male Condi Rice is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by 3heartchallenge View Post
Really? do you mean Arabs have no rights in Israel? and they are oppressed? Because I understand Muslims have the same rights as any Jewish citizen, except they are not obliged to join the army.
Actually I'm not talking about the Arabs in Israel. I'm specifically talking about the Palestinian citizens in Gaza Strip and the West Bank. There are Israeli Human Rights lawyers fighting for Palestinians to be free from military oppression.

Quote:
Do you really blame "the Zionist Regime" for wanting a state of their own after being so highly discriminated and massacred. Also, there ARE 21 arab states, and there's the catholic vatican city. What's so terrible of having a Jewish state (with 20% of the citizens not being jewish).
And still, President Ahmadinejad claims the Holocaust never happened and that Israel must be wiped off the map. On the second point, Arabs also have representatives in the lawmaking system. (currently 13 in the knesset)
I blame the Zionist regime for killing innocent Palestinian citizens in the process of wanting their own state. Whether they want their own state or not, is not my concern. Though I prefer one state however if the Jews and Muslims prefer two different states then I don't mind, as long as everyone is happy. Any group has been discriminated and massacred that should not be tolerated, however it should not be used to justify unlawful actions.

Actually listen to President Ahamdinejad. He said if the Holocaust happened in Europe, and then why Palestinian citizens are are suffering. What did they do wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-E7oZ4iFtg

Watch this interview. I believe he raises an important question.

Quote:
"Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where women may vote."-Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 2001.
Again I'm talking about the West bank and the Gaza strip. I never read that guide. I prefer History books however can you please summarise what that book was stating? A couple of points would be sufficient.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:06 PM
Flames of Valor United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

If someone invades your territory, and fights you out, it's their territory now. That was easy.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:25 PM
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

I hate it how people personify themselves with there country.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:29 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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All of them belong to the human race.
This. I have no concept of "territory" as far as nationality goes, and see the practice of it as stupid in general. All land is public property, not just of the public of a nation but of the whole public of the whole world.

The only exceptions to this are when someone occupies a plot of land that they have invested capital in for residential or business purposes, in that case they have jurisdiction over the land.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:40 PM
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

It's a simple case of might makes right. People own their territory because they have the power to, if they didn't someone could (and would) just force them out and take it from them. Humans are by nature territorial animals, that takes precedence over any superficial concept of ethics.
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:35 PM
3heartchallenge 3heartchallenge is a male 3heartchallenge is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Joker View Post
I blame the Zionist regime for killing innocent Palestinian citizens in the process of wanting their own state.
Before I comment on this. Could you specify as to what you're talking about? pre israel? post israel? gaza strip?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Joker View Post
Actually listen to President Ahamdinejad. He said if the Holocaust happened in Europe, and then why Palestinian citizens are are suffering. What did they do wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-E7oZ4iFtg

Watch this interview. I believe he raises an important question.
Ok, although President Ahmadinejad HAS said the holocaust to be a myth, I can see the point of why should the palesinian pay the price... But wasn't palestine in british mandate before the creation of Israel? then why would they have had to pay the price of the british being there? I am trying to find complaints like this about the british mandate, but can't find any. This is if the suffering he is talking about is a suffering of not owning the land.
If the suffering is about killing of palestines, then I won't give in to that, since wars following the creation of israel were all started by arab countries, mainly trying to destroy israel.


Quote:
Again I'm talking about the West bank and the Gaza strip. I never read that guide. I prefer History books however can you please summarise what that book was stating? A couple of points would be sufficient.
Here's an online version.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ths/mftoc.html
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:58 PM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by Artemicion View Post
This. I have no concept of "territory" as far as nationality goes, and see the practice of it as stupid in general. All land is public property, not just of the public of a nation but of the whole public of the whole world.

The only exceptions to this are when someone occupies a plot of land that they have invested capital in for residential or business purposes, in that case they have jurisdiction over the land.
Property belonging to an individual is in my view different to the arbitrary divides between nations and governments, so even under a one-world government of the human race, there would still be individual property, but not a matter of "national" territories unless one person owned a patch of land that big (unlikely).
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:39 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by Lord Zero View Post
Property belonging to an individual is in my view different to the arbitrary divides between nations and governments, so even under a one-world government of the human race, there would still be individual property, but not a matter of "national" territories unless one person owned a patch of land that big (unlikely).
I suppose I was getting at "no ownership of land" being the rule, and "except for residence and business" being the exception. That I think would create a better model for fairness, not "private property" first and "public property" being the exception.
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:42 PM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
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Re: "To The Victor Goes The Spoils" - War and the Rightful Ownership of Territory

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Originally Posted by Artemicion View Post
I suppose I was getting at "no ownership of land" being the rule, and "except for residence and business" being the exception. That I think would create a better model for fairness, not "private property" first and "public property" being the exception.
To be honest, since I'm not keen on "rule/exception", the rule to me is more "the Earth belongs to the human race, and property is to be divided only among individuals. Any unowned property is public property." Which automatically exempts national governments from being able to stake a claim on any particular patch of land in which their jurisdiction resides.
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