The Three Types of Civilizations

The Kardashev scale is used by scientists to measure the advancement of our civilization, and would be used to measure alien civilizations should we find them.

The three types are

Type 1

This civilization has complete control of it's own planet, and is able to harness nature for it's energy needs. It would also have a global culture, language, and government.

Type 2

The second civilization has already exausted its planet's energy and has moved on to taking energy from its mother star. This civilization has spread beyond it's solar system and can explore nearby stars. At this point it is basically impossible to destroy this society as it has spread through its local cluster of stars. This means that even if it's home star dies, they can just pack up and move to another star.

Type 3

Type 3 civilizations have reached a point where they harness billions of stars for energy and have basically completly explored the galaxy, and possibly have begun inter-galactic exploration. This civilization could have colonized trillions upon trillions of planets and may even control other civilizations within the galaxy.

So where does humanity stand on this scale? Well, we don't. We are considered to be a Type 0 civilization, because we have not yet mastered our planet, and still get our energy from fossil fuels. Many predict that humanity could reach Type 1 status within the next hundred years, but it's not certain.

So, do you think we'll make it to Type 1, or will we see the end of humanity in the next century?

I hear about this a lot on the Science Channel, it is an interesting concept. But I don't see a Type 1 civilization, as a 'world government' coming anytime soon. Tons of cultures on this planet are still inferior to Western Civilization and it's not PC to say, but we can't live under the same form of government. I wouldn't even want to live under a North American superstate, imagine how horrificly unbalanced the politics would be. Canada & Mexico are extremely liberal, borderline Socialist, nations. How is that fair to the Conservatives in America? No Republican would go for it. So the whole idea to me seems a little far-fetched right now.

As for the European Union, it is ending up a disaster. In theory it's a good idea, but due theres already been a problem with immigrants & centralization. And the fact that the people didn't vote to be in the EU, I find disturbing & not heading into the right direction.


As for a world culture & world langauge we basically already have that developing.

Originally Posted by FlashX

I hear about this a lot on the Science Channel, it is an interesting concept. But I don't see a Type 1 civilization, as a 'world government' coming anytime soon. Tons of cultures on this planet are still inferior to Western Civilization and it's not PC to say, but we can't live under the same form of government. I wouldn't even want to live under a North American superstate, imagine how horrificly unbalanced the politics would be. Canada & Mexico are extremely liberal, borderline Socialist, nations. How is that fair to the Conservatives in America? No Republican would go for it. So the whole idea to me seems a little far-fetched right now.

As for the European Union, it is ending up a disaster. In theory it's a good idea, but due theres already been a problem with immigrants & centralization. And the fact that the people didn't vote to be in the EU, I find disturbing & not heading into the right direction.


As for a world culture & world langauge we basically already have that developing.

The EU, by and large, has been terrific for every member state. The ONE THING that I dislike is that they're trying to get the Lisbon Treaty passed without consulting the people. On the other hand, a lot of people are so xenophobic that they'd vote it down out of hand, so I can see why the governments are seeing if they can get away with it.

Originally Posted by FlashX

I hear about this a lot on the Science Channel, it is an interesting concept. But I don't see a Type 1 civilization, as a 'world government' coming anytime soon. As for a world culture & world langauge we basically already have that developing.

Well a world government isn't absolutly needed, but there needs to be a way for the world to adress its problems. Such as poverty and disease. We already have the UN, but it's simply not good enough to fufull our needs. What I see happening is that power centeralizes in the West and the leaders of the world will most likley be the US and the EU. People say China would also end up in a position of power, but anyone who's seen the situation in China knows that they have a long way to go before they have the same cultural, social and economic impact on the world as the United States does. Their military might match ours soon, but that's the only way they'll be able to stand eye to eye with us. So look to the West to lead the world into a Type 1 civilization.

This isn't gonna happen within 100 years. Unfortunately, No-one wants to be part of one giant Nation, with one Language and Government. I mean, the French will never embrace English.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

Well a world government isn't absolutly needed, but there needs to be a way for the world to adress its problems. Such as poverty and disease. We already have the UN, but it's simply not good enough to fufull our needs. What I see happening is that power centeralizes in the West and the leaders of the world will most likley be the US and the EU. People say China would also end up in a position of power, but anyone who's seen the situation in China knows that they have a long way to go before they have the same cultural, social and economic impact on the world as the United States does. Their military might match ours soon, but that's the only way they'll be able to stand eye to eye with us. So look to the West to lead the world into a Type 1 civilization.

No offense, but if the United States keeps going the way it is, I don't think any region is going to 'lead'. To be honest, I don't see a Type 1 happening any time before Africa and South America stabilise.

Originally Posted by Figaro

This isn't gonna happen within 100 years. Unfortunately, No-one wants to be part of one giant Nation, with one Language and Government. I mean, the French will never embrace English.

You've misunderstood me. What I mean by a planetary language I mean that the people of the world will most likely be bi-lingual. You can already see it happening in Europe and parts of Asia. To give you an example of how far this has progressed, the nation with the largest population of people who can speak English is India. And as I said one world governmen isn't vital, what is vital is a sense of unity among humanity, and in much of the world that seems to be developing. People in North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia are working to try and improve the condition of the world.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

No offense, but if the United States keeps going the way it is, I don't think any region is going to 'lead'. To be honest, I don't see a Type 1 happening any time before Africa and South America stabilise.

What do you mean "keeps going the way it is?" People throughout Europe seem to have this assumption that the US is headed for doom, but TBH I don't see it. South America has become much more stable over the years, and I'd be surprised if by 2109 Africa is still in the same condition it is now.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

What do you mean "keeps going the way it is?" People throughout Europe seem to have this assumption that the US is headed for doom, but TBH I don't see it. South America has become much more stable over the years, and I'd be surprised if by 2109 Africa is still in the same condition it is now.

I'm not saying it's headed for doom, I'm saying that it's stretching itself rather thinly. And although it won't implode, its influence is likely to recede as times change, the same as the British 'Empire'.

I don't see America as an Evil Empire, but I do think that, like the old British Empire, a lot of its prosperity is founded on colonial interests. This is not manipulative on the part of the US, merely a natural reaction to opportunity. I would actually blame corrupt or inept local governments for this more than I would America - these governments are doing good short-term business but are representing their own people poorly. As the people of these nations begin to chafe under such regimes and start movements for reform they will eventually keep their natural resources for their own consumption. This can be seen in South America most prominently. And although 99% of Americans would never have exploited these nations themselves, they will suffer financially as a result of the shrinking fortunes of those 1% that did. This will also reduce America's ability to wage wars far away from US soil, which will lead to a receding influence on third world affairs, further accelerating the effect.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

As the people of these nations begin to chafe under such regimes and start movements for reform they will eventually keep their natural resources for their own consumption. This can be seen in South America most prominently. And although 99% of Americans would never have exploited these nations themselves, they will suffer financially as a result of the shrinking fortunes of those 1% that did. This will also reduce America's ability to wage wars far away from US soil, which will lead to a receding influence on third world affairs, further accelerating the effect.

This is actually a huge concern for the US, and has not been ignored, but you see unlike the British Empire the United States exsists in a point in time where it can begin to make reforms so that they don't have to rely so heavily on other nations for resources. There's a new energy bill that just passed the House this week that will push the counrty toward "green" energy, such as wind, solar and geothermal. If this passes the Senate, and with a 60 Democrat majority, I'm sure it will, it'll mean that soon America won't need the resources you mentioned.

I see a type 1 human civilisation emerging around 2200, as that's about 100 years following a predicted drop in population, creating a similar environment to that of the enlightenment in which land cheapens and the undereducated become educated, which created modern capitalism. Thus, I see world socialism coming to be at around that period.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

This is actually a huge concern for the US, and has not been ignored, but you see unlike the British Empire the United States exsists in a point in time where it can begin to make reforms so that they don't have to rely so heavily on other nations for resources. There's a new energy bill that just passed the House this week that will push the counrty toward "green" energy, such as wind, solar and geothermal. If this passes the Senate, and with a 60 Democrat majority, I'm sure it will, it'll mean that soon America won't need the resources you mentioned.

LOL, I love the way capitalism works-

Reformist: Maybe we should switch to green energy?
Capitalist: Nope.
Reformist: It'd remove some of our responsibility for the oppression of third world nations?
Capitalist: Nope.
Reformist: It'd help preserve the environment for future generations?
Capitalist: Nope.
Reformist: It makes financial sense?
Capitalist: WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO?!!!

Originally Posted by 8bit

I see a type 1 human civilisation emerging around 2200, as that's about 100 years following a predicted drop in population, creating a similar environment to that of the enlightenment in which land cheapens and the undereducated become educated, which created modern capitalism. Thus, I see world socialism coming to be at around that period.

Well, that's one possibility, but what people seem to forget is that this is mostly based off of how a civilization obtains it's energy. So humanity could become Type 1 under it's current system. Hell, we could reach Type 3 like this. It's also possible that once we reach Type 1 or 2, a Type 3 civilization could assimilate us with them, this is what happened in Mass Effect.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

LOL, I love the way capitalism works-

Reformist: Maybe we should switch to green energy?
Capitalist: Nope.
Reformist: It'd remove some of our responsibility for the oppression of third world nations?
Capitalist: Nope.
Reformist: It'd help preserve the environment for future generations?
Capitalist: Nope.
Reformist: It makes financial sense?
Capitalist: WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO?!!!

Well they're on board now, so I really couldn't care less about their motives.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

Well, that's one possibility, but what people seem to forget is that this is mostly based off of how a civilization obtains it's energy. So humanity could become Type 1 under it's current system. Hell, we could reach Type 3 like this. It's also possible that once we reach Type 1 or 2, a Type 3 civilization could assimilate us with them, this is what happened in Mass Effect.

Yes, to be honest I'd prefer a Type 2. Simply for the 'if planet dies, race survives' part.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

Well they're on board now, so I really couldn't care less about their motives.

That's my point: that capitalism works - eventually, once the financial sense is seen in doing 'the right thing'.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

Yes, to be honest I'd prefer a Type 2. Simply for the 'if planet dies, race survives' part.

I'd prefer a Type 3, because at the point we'll be able to begin exploring the Universe. Of course this raises the question of a Type 4 civilization. One that has control of multiple galaxies. Now that would be pretty damn awsome.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

I'd prefer a Type 3, because at the point we'll be able to begin exploring the Universe. Of course this raises the question of a Type 4 civilization. One that has control of multiple galaxies. Now that would be pretty damn awsome.

Meh; exploring the universe is icing on the cake, but not necessary. We'd NEED Type 2 in order to survive the inevitable expansion of the Sun.

Originally Posted by 8bit

I see a type 1 human civilisation emerging around 2200, as that's about 100 years following a predicted drop in population, creating a similar environment to that of the enlightenment in which land cheapens and the undereducated become educated, which created modern capitalism. Thus, I see world socialism coming to be at around that period.

Quite a substantial amount of nations are tending towards socialism already. 200 years is a conservative estimate.

Originally Posted by CVN-76

Well, that's one possibility, but what people seem to forget is that this is mostly based off of how a civilization obtains it's energy. So humanity could become Type 1 under it's current system. Hell, we could reach Type 3 like this. It's also possible that once we reach Type 1 or 2, a Type 3 civilization could assimilate us with them, this is what happened in Mass Effect.

I see change in technology tagging along with change in economy and social structure, as it has done in the past.

The only issue I see with the predictions of a drop in population is also the prediction that many of us (those under the age of 50) will likely never die, however, if you think about it long enough, it starts to make sense. First, those in their early 50s and late 40s will start dying off at around 2100, developing nations will, unfortunately, not be up to speed with developed nations, so the majority of their populations will die off, (and thus a majority of the human population will eventually die) at the same time they will reap a somewhat extended lifespan, and thus, birthrates will drop, and a large population of the conservative lower and middle classes will refuse to live indefinitely, thus thining out the population even more, and as life spans rise, birthrates drop.

Now you may ask, "If the population rises above 10 billion by 2100, as it's expected to do, how will we get it bellow what it is today?"

The answer is that it doesn't need to drop bellow what it is today, it only needs to drop bellow a high point, so if it goes up to 10 billion, then drops down to 9, despite being much larger than it is today, it'll still create an environment reminiscent of the enlightenment, and, with a lot of the old people and a lot of the conservatives gone, the world population will be much more open to both economic and technological change.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

Quite a substantial amount of nations are tending towards socialism already. 200 years is a conservative estimate.

Yes, I know. I'd rather be overly pessimistic, than overly 0ptimistic, thus, the 100 year extension.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

Quite a substantial amount of nations are tending towards socialism already. 200 years is a conservative estimate.

What I see happening is that most nations will adopt a moderate socialist/capitalist mix. This will be purely to ensure the stability of the world economy, and will most likley not be created with communism as the goal. I'd say that it would be something like what the European nations currently have.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

The EU, by and large, has been terrific for every member state. The ONE THING that I dislike is that they're trying to get the Lisbon Treaty passed without consulting the people. On the other hand, a lot of people are so xenophobic that they'd vote it down out of hand, so I can see why the governments are seeing if they can get away with it.

True. EU in the long run is a good idea, don't get me wrong. However I just am angry at the people having little to say about it. But yeah, a union is needed for Europe. Especially with neighbors like Russia and economic superpowers like America.

This isn't gonna happen within 100 years. Unfortunately, No-one wants to be part of one giant Nation, with one Language and Government. I mean, the French will never embrace English.

I bet if the East Asian states of Japan, China, North & South Korea were able to unite they'd be unstoppable. Too bad East Asians are extremely nationalistic & would oppose the idea.

I can see French & other European ethnicities speaking English as a second language, they already do in most parts of Europe, right?

I'd prefer a Type 3, because at the point we'll be able to begin exploring the Universe. Of course this raises the question of a Type 4 civilization. One that has control of multiple galaxies. Now that would be pretty damn awsome.

May be in Type 4 you'd be able to transcend Universes or comprehend other Dimensions.

Originally Posted by 8bit

I see change in technology tagging along with change in economy and social structure, as it has done in the past.

The only issue I see with the predictions of a drop in population is also the prediction that many of us (those under the age of 50) will likely never die, however, if you think about it long enough, it starts to make sense. First, those in their early 50s and late 40s will start dying off at around 2100, developing nations will, unfortunately, not be up to speed with developed nations, so the majority of their populations will die off, (and thus a majority of the human population will eventually die) at the same time they will reap a somewhat extended lifespan, and thus, birthrates will drop, and a large population of the conservative lower and middle classes will refuse to live indefinitely, thus thining out the population even more, and as life spans rise, birthrates drop.

Now you may ask, "If the population rises above 10 billion by 2100, as it's expected to do, how will we get it bellow what it is today?"

The answer is that it doesn't need to drop bellow what it is today, it only needs to drop bellow a high point, so if it goes up to 10 billion, then drops down to 9, despite being much larger than it is today, it'll still create an environment reminiscent of the enlightenment, and, with a lot of the old people and a lot of the conservatives gone, the world population will be much more open to both economic and technological change.

We've spoken on this before, but I'll reiterate: I plan on eventually dying, no matter what technology is capable of. If you genuinely want to live forever - not for just a million years, but FOREVER - then I'm sorry to say that I think you're naive. How old are you, as a point of interest?

Originally Posted by CVN-76

What I see happening is that most nations will adopt a moderate socialist/capitalist mix. This will be purely to ensure the stability of the world economy, and will most likley not be created with communism as the goal. I'd say that it would be something like what the European nations currently have.

Yes, I'd be inclined to agree - I don't really see anyone aiming for communism proper for quite some time.

Originally Posted by FlashX

True. EU in the long run is a good idea, don't get me wrong. However I just am angry at the people having little to say about it. But yeah, a union is needed for Europe. Especially with neighbors like Russia and economic superpowers like America.

You and I are on the same wavelength, then. However, there are even more reasons why I want the EU to succeed: its example may inspire other unions, strengthening (and simplifying) international relations. The financial benefits of a single market are too tempting for nations to pass up.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

We've spoken on this before, but I'll reiterate: I plan on eventually dying, no matter what technology is capable of. If you genuinely want to live forever - not for just a million years, but FOREVER - then I'm sorry to say that I think you're naive.

I think it's important to note that the goal will be to remove all unwanted death. You are perfectly welcome to off yourself.

This only issue is the eventual universal heat death in a trillion years... While it might not make logical sense that we would be able to overcome that today, perhaps once we're vastly more intelligent we'll be able to think of a way. Afterall, we do have a trillion years at minimum.

How old are you, as a point of interest?

Today? 19.1612 years. Yourself? (Not to the hour, obviously. I was just bored, and felt figuring that out.)

Yes, I'd be inclined to agree - I don't really see anyone aiming for communism proper for quite some time.

World socialism must come first, and then the state should slowly wither away. Sure, we're not going to see world socialism in 50 years, but 200? I think 200 is a pretty good bet.