Preordinance and Punishment

So... you know where this is gonna go. Supposedly, God has "preordained" everything, He has a "plan".

But this... is wrong, right? Looking at the world today and the things that are happening... was this really all planned?

Also, more to the topic of this thread, if God has planned everything out, then... anything we do wrong, it was planned. At the very least he'd KNOW we were going to do wrong. But...we're still supposed to be punished for it. He still judges, even though he knows the that we were going to do something wrong, anyway.

I actually got this little pamphlet thingy that had this topic, but honestly, it beat around the bush and contradicted itself so much, that it made my head hurt.

What I feel about your statement about God having everything preordained is that God may have preordained the events of our time, how ever God can't preordain how we as humans would react to the events of our times. God judges us on how we react to the event. So we will be punished or rewarded based on our reaction's of the situations God gives us trough out our lives. And a little bit of advice some times to understand something you must not think to much about it.

I personally think God just created the world and didn't choose our fates. What's the purpose in giving us free will if our destinies are set in stone? The world works how God wants it to, but we humans were given the gift of doing as we will.

No God didn't predict the future, thats dumb if you give it a few seconds thought.

I don't really understand how you can have free will, as well as god having a plan. I don't think the two can really go together.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

No God didn't predict the future, thats dumb if you give it a few seconds thought.

What do you mean?

I like to look at it this way. Assume you have plans to go to the beach on Day X. It doesn't matter what you do in the time between now and Day X, in the end, you're still going to the beach. It's the same way with God's plan. He has a plan for your life. A purpose, if you will. You have free will, yes, but in the end, you'll eventually fulfill that purpose.

Of course, like all things, I could be dead wrong, but that's my conviction on the whole deal.

Originally Posted by The Great Panda

I like to look at it this way. Assume you have plans to go to the beach on Day X. It doesn't matter what you do in the time between now and Day X, in the end, you're still going to the beach. It's the same way with God's plan. He has a plan for your life. A purpose, if you will. You have free will, yes, but in the end, you'll eventually fulfill that purpose.

Of course, like all things, I could be dead wrong, but that's my conviction on the whole deal.

How exactly do you have free will if you always end up in the same place? If you truly have free will, you should be able to avoid following a path set in stone.

The way I see it, it's less of a path and more of a point with infinite paths connecting to it.

In all honesty, though, I can't answer that question because, well, I don't know the answer. I am no theologian and I'm not going to try to pass as one.

Originally Posted by The Great Panda

The way I see it, it's less of a path and more of a point with infinite paths connecting to it.

In all honesty, though, I can't answer that question because, well, I don't know the answer. I am no theologian and I'm not going to try to pass as one.

So your theory is that there are multiple journeys a person can travel, but they will all eventually lead to the same place? Then what happens to people that go to Hell? Do you think our wise, loving God would plan for one of his children to be sent the Hell as part of his plan?

Of course not. His plan is for our life here on earth as a means of furthering his kingdom. As for Heaven and Hell, it is my conviction that we as humans can never fully comprehend God, so I'm not entirely sure how that works. Again, I'm not a theologian.

Which God are we talking about? I'm going to have to assume we're talking about the Judeo-Christian God, or maybe the Abrahamic God.

Aiight, so, God has "planned" everything because God, if we're talking about the same God here, is omniscient. So, God knows everything. Past, present, future is known. This would mean that God is at least a 6th dimensional being, because all of the possibilities occur, and then tied together. So, that's how that works.

Free will can happen because God is omnipotent, and can allow free will to happen. If God is really omniscient and omnipotent, then God can easily contradict God, and never be wrong.

That's the breaks of the Abrahamic God's knowledge and free will.

Originally Posted by Insaney

Also, more to the topic of this thread, if God has planned everything out, then... anything we do wrong, it was planned. At the very least he'd KNOW we were going to do wrong. But...we're still supposed to be punished for it. He still judges, even though he knows the that we were going to do something wrong, anyway.

Indeed. Even if someone doesn't openly believe in predestination, the Bible requires it. Psychology has shown us that free will is just an abstraction of unconscious processes - an illusion that the decisions we make are actually conscious. In everyday life, we have to ignore this fact because it just makes things unnecessarily complicated, and we'd go crazy trying to apply it to everything. Brains are too complicated for any human to predict their output. But an all-knowing god would have no trouble, so this is one case where it is very relevant.

Why did Eve choose to eat the fruit? Partly from environmental factors (the serpent), and also because of internal factors (neurology). God made the brains of Adam and Eve knowing that the way he wired them would lead them to eat the fruit. If our prefrontal cortices were slightly larger, we'd still be in Eden. For this reason, I don't see how it could possibly be fair to punish someone for an action you led them to do. Forcing someone to break your own rules and then condemning them for it does not fall under my definition of "all-loving".

I've made this argument several times, and have yet to get a satisfactory answer (and some of you who know me must admit...I'm pretty fair when it comes to this stuff!). Or maybe I have and forgot. Either way, I'd like to see a good response

What do you mean?

Well firstly, if we know of infer God can see the future, wouldn't simply knowing this affect the way we act? One would purposely try to do something unexpected simply for this reason. Would God know he would do that? Of course he would, because God knows everything, if God knows the future then the future is set, otherwise he doesn't know the future, but, since he knows the future and everything we are going to do, no one actually has any free will because it is all preordained. This is just a way of endowing God with absolute supremacy, as most religious folk would. This is just a filler, nothing more. "Oh, that was unexpected it must be part of God's plan." It's just an excuse. Which is why I think it's dumb. You can't say God gave people free will and that he knows the future, it isn't logical. Of course, religion doesn't have to be logical for people to believe in it so why argue with logic against something illogical?

Originally Posted by Eternal Paradox

I don't really understand how you can have free will, as well as god having a plan.
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Currently Reading: Bakker

I lol'd

Originally Posted by Hatter

Why did Eve choose to eat the fruit? Partly from environmental factors (the serpent), and also because of internal factors (neurology). God made the brains of Adam and Eve knowing that the way he wired them would lead them to eat the fruit. If our prefrontal cortices were slightly larger, we'd still be in Eden. For this reason, I don't see how it could possibly be fair to punish someone for an action you led them to do. Forcing someone to break your own rules and then condemning them for it does not fall under my definition of "all-loving".

Why did God "choose" to create Eden? Certainly due to some causal sequence of events (his internal reasoning) and also - perhaps - due to an element of randomization (initial conditions). Logic dictates that the "Whys" behind God's actions have either knowable "Becauses" (and so are entirely mechanical from an omniscient POV) or can be reduced to truly random processes. Perhaps if some cosmic dice had come down 6 instead of 1, we'd still be in Eden. For this reason, I don' see how it could possibly be fair to hold the function that is God responsible for its actions. A slot machine which takes money from everyone but doles out prizes to a lucky few does not fall under my definition of "accountable".

Omniscience precludes choice; not just in human biology, but even in a deity... which is kinda the point of EP's book

God has a plan for the entire universe that's preordained, but because humans were given free will since the beginning of time, there is no set in stone way this plan will be fulfilled through people. God will get what he wants done eventually, but if a human he wants to complete the task refuses, he will simply find another. In my opinion, God can force events to happen, but will never tamper with someone's will.

To answer someone's question, God cannot be held responsible for our actions. In the beginning, it is said that God created man as his near equal, but once Eve and Adam became greedy for the power to be EXACTLY like God, he condemned them to a fate that was less than their previous existence. God clearly doesn't want someone to overthrow him, as apparently it happened already with Lucifer. The reasoning behind his will to control everything is probably beyond human capacity to understand, but I can only assume it is in the goodwill of everything. Perhaps good and evil is much more complicated than we give it credit for.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

Why did God "choose" to create Eden? Certainly due to some causal sequence of events (his internal reasoning) and also - perhaps - due to an element of randomization (initial conditions). Logic dictates that the "Whys" behind God's actions have either knowable "Becauses" (and so are entirely mechanical from an omniscient POV) or can be reduced to truly random processes. Perhaps if some cosmic dice had come down 6 instead of 1, we'd still be in Eden. For this reason, I don' see how it could possibly be fair to hold the function that is God responsible for its actions. A slot machine which takes money from everyone but doles out prizes to a lucky few does not fall under my definition of "accountable".

But God, supposedly, is the initial condition. And while I don't know where randomness would come in (again, God was perfectly aware of the future outcome of his decisions), but even if it were the product of randomness, it's still not fair to punish someone.

Basically, it is God's omniscience that makes him guilty. If I were a chef and, despite washing my hands and taking proper sanitary measures, the food I served to someone made them sick, I'm not guilty. If I serve someone food knowing it's contaminated with salmonella, when I could just make it without salmonella, then I'm a complete douchebag.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Moo

To answer someone's question, God cannot be held responsible for our actions. In the beginning, it is said that God created man as his near equal, but once Eve and Adam became greedy for the power to be EXACTLY like God, he condemned them to a fate that was less than their previous existence. God clearly doesn't want someone to overthrow him, as apparently it happened already with Lucifer. The reasoning behind his will to control everything is probably beyond human capacity to understand, but I can only assume it is in the goodwill of everything. Perhaps good and evil is much more complicated than we give it credit for.

Yes, that's how the story goes, but I'm saying it's God's fault that they became greedy.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

I lol'd


Omniscience precludes choice; not just in human biology, but even in a deity... which is kinda the point of EP's book

I've only just started reading it, about 75 pages in. Pretty good so far, except for the annoyingly hard names to pronounce.

Originally Posted by zombiefragger

What I feel about your statement about God having everything preordained is that God may have preordained the events of our time, how ever God can't preordain how we as humans would react to the events of our times. God judges us on how we react to the event. So we will be punished or rewarded based on our reaction's of the situations God gives us trough out our lives. And a little bit of advice some times to understand something you must not think to much about it.

The past, present and future all exist at the same time which is why god knows what will happen what has happened and what is happening.

Which God are we talking about? I'm going to have to assume we're talking about the Judeo-Christian God, or maybe the Abrahamic God.

arent they one and the same?

Basically, it is God's omniscience that makes him guilty. If I were a chef and, despite washing my hands and taking proper sanitary measures, the food I served to someone made them sick, I'm not guilty. If I serve someone food knowing it's contaminated with salmonella, when I could just make it without salmonella, then I'm a complete douchebag.

What about a robot chef, who feeds information (including salmonella content) into a simple program which outputs a "serve/don't serve" order the robot necessarily follows? Is the robot to be held responsible for any food poisoning? Surely the fault is with the programmer! But what if variables in the code were dictated by the result of some truly random quantum event? Is the universe at large now to blame?

From an omniscient POV all reasoning - even God's - reduces to a computer program. If that program, or at least some of its elements, came into being (or "eternally existed") without some previous cause then they are, by definition, random values. Where do God's responsibilities diverge from the robot's?