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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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You can't have it both ways, God cannot be free from any guilt because he has no choice, but still be worth worshipping because he has choice. Quote:
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
I'm not so much arguing that God can't "make a decision", as that the idea of "making a decision" is meaningless (or at the very least unworthy of the connotations we give it) when an omniscient POV is involved. If we treat God as a program, for rhetorical purposes, an input of "worship" has an output of "salvation"; no notion of choice is required.
A conscious being is one who maps reality to an internal active symbology, and "experiences" an output. No particular ability is required. |

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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
But, once again, what is the practical difference between a God who is totally uncaring about humanity and one who cares but must act as if he is an uncaring one due to his knowledge of the future?
Either way everything that happens is set in stone. For all intents and purposes they are identical. As such, it would seem that Calvanism is right, we are all saved or damned before birth, may as well do as we please until we die.
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
The "practical difference" is none of my concern (I personally find the idea of omniscience a logical impossibility in the first place). I was simply pointing out that its contradictory to remove responsibility from Eve due to the pre-ordained nature of her actions, and not afford God the same luxury
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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Regardless of the composition of God's brain, regardless even of its physicality, it is necessarily random and/or deterministic because there is quite simply no other way for it to be. Maybe this isn't something Christians necessarily talk about, or indoctrinate, but it definitely follows from their premise. |

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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
Its always been my experience that theologians in academia dis-allow God contradictory or meaningless attributes/action (and thus avoid square circles, ultimately heavy rocks, and similar but certainly less trivial problems); this was certainly my policy when I believed. "Free will", in its most common usage, is a phrase with a boatload of connotations but no definition: an ideal example of a "meaningless" attribute.
idk, maybe its best to let the faithful speak for themselves? I think I'll drop this. |

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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
I thought "free will" was the ability to act in accordance with conscious, intelligent thought. And that the entire point of creating beings with this ability was so that they could exercise it.
Is there anyone who would argue that it is not good for beings to be free? And is there anyone who would argue that we could truly be free if God intervened to prevent people from doing bad [in the first place, before they act]? Moreover, why do people demonize God for giving people this basic freedom, yet complain whenever a government impedes upon lesser freedoms? |

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Re: Preordinance and Punishment
I'm arguing that he didn't give us this freedom, and that he's punishing us for a decision he made.
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