Regarding the death of Jesus Christ.

Christianity teaches that Jesus had to die, or God couldn't forgive the world. So why isn't Judas a "Saint?"

Source: http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/history/origin_cross.html

I'm sorry, but am I the only one who was just blown away from this statement? The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

Judas betrayed Christ for silver. Even if it was "written" (he was punished for something that was preordained. Yes, I know), he was still greedy enough to take the silver, turn over Christ and then kill himself.

Originally Posted by Insaney

Judas betrayed Christ for silver. Even if it was "written" (he was punished for something that was preordained. Yes, I know), he was still greedy enough to take the silver, turn over Christ and then kill himself.

Someone had to bring him in.

Originally Posted by Eggys

Someone had to bring him in.

This does not make what he did a good thing though. Had he honestly turned Jesus in because he knew it would lead to his glory and the human race being forgiven, that would be one thing. But Judas turned Jesus in for thirty pieces of silver, a far less noble cause, wouldn't you say?

assuming Jesus was really the son of god and not just a random nut case, we can say that he indeed should be a saint, being that it was not his fault because it was preordained.

Originally Posted by Shinespark

This does not make what he did a good thing though. Had he honestly turned Jesus in because he knew it would lead to his glory and the human race being forgiven, that would be one thing. But Judas turned Jesus in for thirty pieces of silver, a far less noble cause, wouldn't you say?

Yes, good point.

Even still, someone had to bring him in. It happens that the person who did was motivated by money.

Originally Posted by Shinespark

This does not make what he did a good thing though. Had he honestly turned Jesus in because he knew it would lead to his glory and the human race being forgiven, that would be one thing. But Judas turned Jesus in for thirty pieces of silver, a far less noble cause, wouldn't you say?

And Jesus didn't want to die. :/

Originally Posted by fratey

And Jesus didn't want to die. :/

This is true. Jesus was prepared to undergo the crucifixion if it was the only way, but he did not really want to.

Judas isn't a saint because he betrayed Jesus for a lot of measly reasons, though disputable.

a) money (though it's disputed since he had access to the money being the treasurer of the group and he did toss the 30 silver coins back at the priests)

b) jealousy (Jesus' getting all the fame, not him)

c) betrayal (he thought Jesus was going to go Rambo, God style, on the Roman Empire. Jesus didn't, so Judas got ticked.)

d) he's trying to get his butt out of the group (of course, he could've very easily just gone up to Jesus instead and said: "look, it was cool traveling with you, Lord, but I kinda want to do my own thing now. Bye." (but then Jesus would've replied that Judas wasn't a follower anymore because he chose earthly things over the Lord himself. :/))

This topic is very interesting. I'll watch this.

Of course, there's also the interpretation that Judas didn't betray Christ, the entire "betrayal" was an attempt to force Jesus's hand, to get him to reveal the divine power that Judas knew he had and was tired of him hiding.

It's still rather an evil thing to do, but not as evil.

And yes, the validity of punishing someone for a pre-ordained act really should be thought of more.

I never got the odea of Sainthood. Christians believe in judgement, which means that the dead are dead and cannot hear you -- and monotheism, which means that normal people should not be raised to a level of divinity that results in worship.

Since the Christian God is ineffable, he knew that Judas had his part to play in this -- and that's one half of the free will of humans. I agree, however, that if he gets divine punishment for this act that's a bit harsh.

But if a God guides our hands, is there any accountability? Should people get medals for war heroics, or snetences for war crimes? If God is mooching around and changing things in a way we cannot understand, surely the idea of any single entity becomes obsolete, and we are all helpless extentions of a being so Omniscient that the idea of freely learning from our own mistakes stops making sense?

Originally Posted by John

Of course, there's also the interpretation that Judas didn't betray Christ, the entire "betrayal" was an attempt to force Jesus's hand, to get him to reveal the divine power that Judas knew he had and was tired of him hiding.

It's still rather an evil thing to do, but not as evil.

And yes, the validity of punishing someone for a pre-ordained act really should be thought of more.

I must be missing the point here but...

Was Judas not paying attention at all in the three years he travelled wtih Jesus? Was he just sitting in the corner, twiddling his thumbs while staring at the clouds? XD Let's see, Jesus:

Healed the blind, deaf, lame, diseased, raised dead, stopped storms, walked on water, turned water into wine, etc.

If that's not Jesus showing his divine powers, then I don't know what is. If this were Judas' "Let's see if this guy can come back to life after dying..." then that's pretty demented of him. I think Jesus showed more than enough miracles without him having to get killed.

If it were pre-ordained that Judas betray Jesus to die, then yeah, this guy got the short end of the stick here. In my mind, Jesus already knew that Judas was going to do something that would lead to Jesus' death. In the Last Supper, Jesus told Judas "Go do what you're about to do and do it quickly." or something to that effect. The disciples made no apparent attempts to restrain Judas. Maybe Jesus kept them at bay while Judas left the building to do his betrayal thing?

I always wondered what Jesus must've thought of Judas after the former came back from the dead.

Originally Posted by Link the Zora

Let's see, Jesus:

Healed the blind, deaf, lame, diseased, raised dead, stopped storms, walked on water, turned water into wine, etc.

If that's not Jesus showing his divine powers, then I don't know what is. If this were Judas' "Let's see if this guy can come back to life after dying..." then that's pretty demented of him. I think Jesus showed more than enough miracles without him having to get killed.

Where in the Bible is it written that Judas witnessed all this?

Lol @ fratey good point

To give a bit more of a different answer to LtZora:

Jesus is like "I'm going to bring Salvation guys! And you'll all be free of sin!"

Meanwhile, his disciples are finding huge amounts of people with disease, demons; the temples are full of "sinful acts", and the priesthood is riddled with "spiritual corruption". And Jesus is just getting angry and overturning tables in the temple?

You might say that the Apostles were hoping for something a little more concrete. Say, lightning bolts and a chorus of angels kinda thing.

But that would be how I would've thought if I was a disciple. I'm no Christian, so don't look at me when you say this sounds REALLY idiotic (because I said it sounds idiotic first!)

~read~

Originally Posted by Link the Zora

I must be missing the point here but...

Was Judas not paying attention at all in the three years he travelled wtih Jesus? Was he just sitting in the corner, twiddling his thumbs while staring at the clouds? XD Let's see, Jesus:

Healed the blind, deaf, lame, diseased, raised dead, stopped storms, walked on water, turned water into wine, etc.

If that's not Jesus showing his divine powers, then I don't know what is. If this were Judas' "Let's see if this guy can come back to life after dying..." then that's pretty demented of him. I think Jesus showed more than enough miracles without him having to get killed.

Er, no. You miss my point.

Judas was, apparently, one of the disciples who wanted Jesus to raise an army to overthrow the Romans. Jesus repeatedly refused to do this, giving needlessly cryptic answers about why he wouldn't.

So, at least in the version I heard repeatedly, Judas decided to force his hand. He'd let him get captured, and then Jesus would have to use his divine abilities to save his life, and the war would be started, with Jesus finally leading that army he was prophesied to use.

As such, part of Judas's later breakdown is because Jesus didn't do any of that. So he actually had condemned him to death, despite thinking that Jesus was in no real danger to start with. (After all, if you knew that the person you were betraying was God, it seems hard to believe that they'd be in any actual danger, doesn't it?)

I see.

Thanks for clearing me up. :3 I just assumed that since Judas was with Jesus for the better part of three years, then he would have had to see him do at least SOME miracles.

I'm no expert on the Bible, so again thanks.

Healed the blind, deaf, lame, diseased, raised dead, stopped storms, walked on water, turned water into wine, etc.

If that's not Jesus showing his divine powers, then I don't know what is. If this were Judas' "Let's see if this guy can come back to life after dying..." then that's pretty demented of him. I think Jesus showed more than enough miracles without him having to get killed.

A common explanation for the miracles Jesus performed was that he wasn't doing it to prove his divinity, but he was proving that things could happen beyond the common human understanding.

This isn't happening because I'm of some almighty grace, this is happening because of something you don't understand. You need to stop being so close-minded and accept the fact that anything can happen, and that you can do anything.

A whole avenue of explanation that was rather lost by the church over the centuries, I feel -- but it's not that Jesus only performed miracles to give his statements validity. If someone had some kind of ineffable 'proof' of divine powers today, people would still not convert to that religion. It wasn't a case of 'This proves I'm the son of god follow my word', but rather served to give part of his message.

How much silver did Judas recieve for betraying christ? I remeber someone telling me it was similiar to $30-50 today. So, Judas really didn't betray Christ for the money.

It doesn't say what happened to Judas does it? And it seems fishy to me that he would straight up betray him. I mean, who is the one that wrote about it anyway? How do we know they were there? Maybe Judas was somehow tricked, or he was forced to tell of Yeshua's location and they gave him the 30 coins for doing so. When he thought about it he ran back and threw them back at them, and went to kill himself. He obviously hated himself for doing it. And the truth is, we don't know the real story. We have something that has been passed down, translated through several different languages, and written by a second or maybe third hand witness... who knows?

And hey, he didn't hurt Yeshua all that much anyway. Sure it was a horrible death (there have been worse in the world), and he rose from the dead three days later. No big deal. That's one thing that pisses me off about Christianity. Yeshua barely made a sacrifice at all! He died the life of a criminal, and got to be resurrected... a REAL sacrifice would have been for him to go to Hell in our place don't you think? Not that I would hope that on the poor guy.

And yeah, the cross was always annoying to me. It was actually adopted from pagan practices, and I guess some early Chritians (usually gentiles) saw the similarity and started using it. The use of artifacts and relics as little idol-like things is so contradictory to everything that YHWH ever said. Actually many things about Christianity have a closer tie to the pagan beliefs of the day than Judaism, the religion that worshiped YHWH, the god supposedly worshipped in Christianity.

Originally Posted by linksmolecules

How much silver did Judas recieve for betraying christ? I remeber someone telling me it was similiar to $30-50 today. So, Judas really didn't betray Christ for the money.

30 pieces of silver, apparently, which would definitely be worth more than $30-$50 today.

I've no idea how much it'd be worth, but any coins made of actual silver tended to buy a very, very, very large amount of stuff.