Are you scared to die?

Originally Posted by Beh

It's more like worrying about being eaten by a shark when you're in an ocean where you don't know if there are sharks or not. :3

Actually, no. It is just as I stated it.

You cannot experience oblivion. So why worry about it?

You can't experience anything if you are non existent.

You keep assuming that there is danger out there, when there is none. You either die and that is that, no ability to be concerned in that scenario.

Or there is more, and well again no need for concern, unless of course you completely neglect this life you have now, and lead a terrible, hateful, and intolerant life.

Worry about the crimes you commit in this life and the good you achieve. That is all that matters, all that can matter.

Dispense with the nonsense. You will breathe easier.

this is what i think happens after you die!
if you think your going to heaven, you go to heaven
if you think you were bad and your going to hell, your going to hell
if you think heaven is a fairy tail, you go to where ever you think is the true afterlife

here's what I think: your opinion doesn't effect reality.

believing in a fairy tale doesn't make it real.

Everyone, please, take this with a grain of salt: I honestly believe the majority of people here who say they are not afraid to die will feel differently after a near-death experience/when they're on their deathbed. They may believe they're not afraid now, but I strongly believe that will change later on in their life.

Aaaanyway,

Originally Posted by Anann

You cannot experience oblivion. So why worry about it?

You can't experience anything if you are non existent.

Prove to me it will be oblivion and not some form of afterlife, and I will not be worried.

You keep assuming that there is danger out there, when there is none. You either die and that is that, no ability to be concerned in that scenario.

Or there is more, and well again no need for concern, unless of course you completely neglect this life you have now, and lead a terrible, hateful, and intolerant life.

This isn't true. If some religions turn out to be correct (or certain denominations), it doesn't matter how great of a life you lived, if you didn't believe in that particular God, or follow these specific rules, you'll still go to Hell, or whatever.

Worry about the crimes you commit in this life and the good you achieve. That is all that matters, all that can matter.

See, above.

Originally Posted by Lunchbox*

Prove to me it will be oblivion and not some form of afterlife, and I will not be worried.

when you die your brain shuts down and decomposes. This is demonstrably true.

without your brain you cannot think or feel or experience anything. This is demonstrably true.

your memories and thoughts cannot be transmitted out of your brain (and therefore cannot be carried on into any sort of "afterlife"). This is demonstrably true.


therefore, oblivion.

Originally Posted by erinys

when you die your brain shuts down and decomposes. This is demonstrably true.

Okay.

without your brain you cannot think or feel or experience anything. This is demonstrably true.

How is this demonstrably true? Have you ever died? And no, people who have "died" and come back to life don't count, since they did eventually stay alive.

your memories and thoughts cannot be transmitted out of your brain (and therefore cannot be carried on into any sort of "afterlife"). This is demonstrably true.

Again, how is demonstrably true? You've never died, and stayed dead. No one knows exactly what happens after we truly die. It's impossible to know.

And, if this were proven without a shadow of a doubt, don't you think religion would be non-existent? Would people really be that idiotic to keep believing in an afterlife if it's been irrevocably proven to be nonexistent? Your logic throughout this whole post makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally Posted by erinys

without your brain you cannot think or feel or experience anything. This is demonstrably true.

I'd actually quibble with this.

It's safe to say that brain damage reduces/changes your ability to think, feel, and experience things, but you can't quite make the leap that destroying a brain removes all ability to do so and call it demonstrably true.

Almost certainly true, yes, and fitting all the evidence we have, but that's not quite the same.

your memories and thoughts cannot be transmitted out of your brain (and therefore cannot be carried on into any sort of "afterlife"). This is demonstrably true.

This I outright reject.

Already commands from the brain to our limbs can be decoded and used to operate prosthetic limbs. I see no reason why, eventually, we will not have the ability to remove memories and thoughts and store them on HDDs, only to retrieve them later.

I'm pretty certain death is just oblivion. That's all I'd guess it to be. As many (including myself) have said before in this thread, the actual process of dying is more to be feared than death itself, since we don't know how we'll die and how painful it will be. Once we're there, "we" don't exist anymore to worry about it.

Originally Posted by John

I see no reason why, eventually, we will not have the ability to remove memories and thoughts and store them on HDDs, only to retrieve them later.

That would be awesome if people weren't so greedy and immature with technology. That's why we can't have nice things.

Originally Posted by Lunchbox*

Okay.

How is this demonstrably true? Have you ever died? And no, people who have "died" and come back to life don't count, since they did eventually stay alive.

I am pretty sure there is sufficient proof that tells us that the brain is responsible for consciousness and without it we are not conscious and therefore cannot think or experience.

and obviously people who have "died" and come back don't count, as their brains remained in tact. In fact, that's sort of the deal here. The only thing that separates the almost dead from the dead is the capability of the brain. If your heart stops beating but your brain still works you can be brought back, but as soon as the brain dies you die. I would say that's pretty good proof right there that the brain is necessary for consciousness.

Again, how is demonstrably true? You've never died, and stayed dead. No one knows exactly what happens after we truly die. It's impossible to know.

the brain cannot transmit signals out of your skull and through the air. If it could we would know about it because we would be able to detect those signals. Brainwaves can only be detected by putting electrodes right on the surface of your head because they don't make it any further than that.

also, I have stated multiple times exactly what happens after we die. Our brains shut down, our bodies decompose, and we are broken down into nutrients to feed the carbon cycle.

And, if this were proven without a shadow of a doubt, don't you think religion would be non-existent? Would people really be that idiotic to keep believing in an afterlife if it's been irrevocably proven to be nonexistent? Your logic throughout this whole post makes no sense whatsoever.

yes, people really are that idiotic. There are countless people who deny irrevocably proven truths all the time. Take for instance Young Earth Creationists. Argumentum ad populum is not a valid argument, try again.

Originally Posted by John

I'd actually quibble with this.

It's safe to say that brain damage reduces/changes your ability to think, feel, and experience things, but you can't quite make the leap that destroying a brain removes all ability to do so and call it demonstrably true.

Almost certainly true, yes, and fitting all the evidence we have, but that's not quite the same.

well it depends on your definition of demonstrable. I mean provable, as in, we have sufficient proof to tell us that a brain is required for consciousness.

This I outright reject.

Already commands from the brain to our limbs can be decoded and used to operate prosthetic limbs. I see no reason why, eventually, we will not have the ability to remove memories and thoughts and store them on HDDs, only to retrieve them later.

oh, certainly with the appropriate technology we could do that. I mean by themselves, as of their own accord, without the aid of technology. As in, when you die your brain cannot just dump all its memories into some external hard disk drive in Heaven somewhere. It cannot and it doesn't, or we would know about it because we would be able to detect the signals being transmitted from dying brains.

Originally Posted by erinys

I am pretty sure there is sufficient proof that tells us that the brain is responsible for consciousness and without it we are not conscious and therefore cannot think or experience

Consciousness/Unconsciousness doesn't determine if we experience anything after we die. Yes, we can't feel anything in this world after we die, but no one knows what happens after we die. We could have souls that have all of our memories and feelings and personalities "coded" into it, and that could be transported to heaven, or hell, or wherever.

and obviously people who have "died" and come back don't count, as their brains remained in tact. In fact, that's sort of the deal here. The only thing that separates the almost dead from the dead is the capability of the brain. If your heart stops beating but your brain still works you can be brought back, but as soon as the brain dies you die. I would say that's pretty good proof right there that the brain is necessary for consciousness.

Alright. It was just a preemptive counter-argument.

the brain cannot transmit signals out of your skull and through the air. If it could we would know about it because we would be able to detect those signals. Brainwaves can only be detected by putting electrodes right on the surface of your head because they don't make it any further than that.

You're looking at this too literally. Yes, scientifically, all of this is impossible. But if all everyone believed in was science, this discussion wouldn't be happening. The whole reason some people fear/don't fear death is because of religion or lack thereof. The fact is that it is impossible to prove that decomposition is all that happens after we die.

yes, people really are that idiotic. There are countless people who deny irrevocably proven truths all the time. Take for instance Young Earth Creationists. Argumentum ad populum is not a valid argument, try again.

I don't know what YECs are, but they can't be too big of a group. Sure, there are some extremists that believe things that have been irrevocably proven, that's impossible to avoid. But, generally, people are open-minded, and are willing to accept something if it's been proven beyond doubt. Some extreme niche doesn't prove your point to be correct.

well it depends on your definition of demonstrable. I mean provable, as in, we have sufficient proof to tell us that a brain is required for consciousness.

But you were saying it was demonstrable, or provable, that thoughts couldn't exist after we die, when it obviously isn't. No one has been able to die and tell us about what happens.

oh, certainly with the appropriate technology we could do that. I mean by themselves, as of their own accord, without the aid of technology. As in, when you die your brain cannot just dump all its memories into some external hard disk drive in Heaven somewhere. It cannot and it doesn't, or we would know about it because we would be able to detect the signals being transmitted from dying brains.

Again, you can't know that for sure. If God exists, he exists outside the realm of physics. He can do whatever he pleases, which includes this "transferring of memory."

Originally Posted by Lunchbox*

Consciousness/Unconsciousness doesn't determine if we experience anything after we die.

when you are unconscious you cannot experience anything. I'm pretty sure this has been demonstrated. You can try it out yourself, in fact. Knock yourself on the head pretty hard. I'm sure you'll find out when you wake up that you don't remember anything in between falling unconscious and waking up.

Yes, we can't feel anything in this world after we die, but no one knows what happens after we die. We could have souls that have all of our memories and feelings and personalities "coded" into it, and that could be transported to heaven, or hell, or wherever.

"in this world"? You mean Earth? You mean the Universe? I'd like you to show me how you can even consider thinking that it is possible to leave physical reality itself.

also, what the hell is a soul? I'm sure if we had one of these "souls" we would be able to find them, right? Assuming, that is, they are made out of any sort of matter or energy. If they aren't then, well, they might as well not exist because they can't do anything.

Alright. It was just a preemptive counter-argument.

You're looking at this too literally. Yes, scientifically, all of this is impossible. But if all everyone believed in was science, this discussion wouldn't be happening. The whole reason some people fear/don't fear death is because of religion or lack thereof. The fact is that it is impossible to prove that decomposition is all that happens after we die.

what are you saying, exactly? If it's impossible scientifically it is physically impossible. It cannot physically happen in this physical Universe. It can't happen.

I don't know what YECs are, but they can't be too big of a group. Sure, there are some extremists that believe things that have been irrevocably proven, that's impossible to avoid. But, generally, people are open-minded, and are willing to accept something if it's been proven beyond doubt. Some extreme niche doesn't prove your point to be correct.

Young Earth creationists. Fundamentalist Christians who believe that God created the Universe in seven days somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. Not a very small group at all, in fact, a Gallop poll taken in 2008 shows that 44% of American adults believe that God created man pretty much in their present form sometime within the last ten thousand years.

yes, almost half of America believes in the demonstrably false.

But you were saying it was demonstrable, or provable, that thoughts couldn't exist after we die, when it obviously isn't. No one has been able to die and tell us about what happens.

it's provable that thought happens in the brain and that without the brain thought is not possible.

after all, how can you think without a brain? What does that even mean? Thought is something that only makes sense in the context of having a brain. You need some sort of physical organ to generate the energy that thought is composed of. I call that a brain, but if you call it something else or you think some other object can perform this process just as well, please speak up.

Again, you can't know that for sure. If God exists, he exists outside the realm of physics. He can do whatever he pleases, which includes this "transferring of memory."

if God exists outside the realm of physics he is nothing but imaginary. A nonphysical God cannot interact with a physical Universe. Here, I said something about this in another thread, let me quote it.

Originally Posted by erinys

a nonphysical God is only an idea or a concept. It cannot create anything physical, it cannot have any effect on anything physical. A Universe with a nonphysical God is physically identical to a Universe without a God (except for the physical manifestations of the concept of God, such as the books and thoughts about God). A nonphysical God cannot communicate with physical humans, cannot hear or reply to prayer, cannot bring about the apocalypse, cannot judge humans and send them to the afterlife, cannot do anything to the physical world.

I think this subject just honestly prooves everyone deep down is a procrastinator.

Technically, no I'm not scared to die at the moment, because I'm not going to die from anything at the moment. The only thing I'm scared of is having to live through the love ones slowly leaving me one by one, till I'm alone. That's why friends are so important. It's just I can't see anybody filling the place of any family that means anything to me, and I'm afraid of trying to get over it, and I'm afraid of dieing alone.

As for me dieing, not that the moment no, because it's not for a while, it's like I'll worry about dieing later. For right now, I have to live, and that's just what I'm going to do.

Originally Posted by erinys

when you are unconscious you cannot experience anything. I'm pretty sure this has been demonstrated. You can try it out yourself, in fact. Knock yourself on the head pretty hard. I'm sure you'll find out when you wake up that you don't remember anything in between falling unconscious and waking up.

Unconsciousness doesn't equal dying

"in this world"? You mean Earth? You mean the Universe? I'd like you to show me how you can even consider thinking that it is possible to leave physical reality itself.

Yes, Earth. Yes, the universe. I don't know how I can show you me considering it. Should I post a picture of me looking inquisitive?

also, what the hell is a soul? I'm sure if we had one of these "souls" we would be able to find them, right? Assuming, that is, they are made out of any sort of matter or energy. If they aren't then, well, they might as well not exist because they can't do anything.

Explain gravity. No one knows what gravity is, only its affects. No one can "feel" gravity, or weigh it, it just happens to be there. It's not made of matter, but it's there. So why not a soul?

what are you saying, exactly? If it's impossible scientifically it is physically impossible. It cannot physically happen in this physical Universe. It can't happen.

A god would exist outside the laws of physics. He wouldn't have to follow the laws we have to follow. You can't seem to wrap your head around this.

Young Earth creationists. Fundamentalist Christians who believe that God created the Universe in seven days somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. Not a very small group at all, in fact, a Gallop poll taken in 2008 shows that 44% of American adults believe that God created man pretty much in their present form sometime within the last ten thousand years.

Source?

And, this could be many different things: Misinformation on the Americans' fault, mis-interpretation on Gallop's fault (which is what, by the way?), the questions could have been vague/misleading, etc. Sounds cynical, but it's possible. And, also, have you ever partaken in a poll like this? I certainly haven't. And no one I know has, either. Statistics are usually the statistics of a single region/area/section of some place and then automatically assumed to be the same all throughout. Half the time, statistics are unreliable.

it's provable that thought happens in the brain and that without the brain thought is not possible.

after all, how can you think without a brain? What does that even mean? Thought is something that only makes sense in the context of having a brain. You need some sort of physical organ to generate the energy that thought is composed of. I call that a brain, but if you call it something else or you think some other object can perform this process just as well, please speak up.

Again, it's possible these thoughts could be transferred to someplace else, via the soul, or God, or whatever. Like john's reference to HDD's, but spiritual.

if God exists outside the realm of physics he is nothing but imaginary. A nonphysical God cannot interact with a physical Universe. Here, I said something about this in another thread, let me quote it.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you know everything about God and how he works.

I don't get the point of fearing death. Most people who do fear death haven't done anything with their lives.

As for me, I am not fearful of death. It's something that we all gotta face, you know?

Originally Posted by Snow_Storm

I don't get the point of fearing death. Most people who do fear death haven't done anything with their lives.

As for me, I am not fearful of death. It's something that we all gotta face, you know?

...There's a point in fearing something? I'd love to stop fearing rejection cuz that's only gotten in the way of many things in my life. It's even stopped me from playing soccer, that was my life, years ago.

And I suppose I'm not fearful of death, it's afterward that gets me. I mean, assuming nothing that happens, it's kinda weird to think that one moment I'm here and the next I'm gone. Or, if there's a heaven and hell....wow....Forte gets to suffer for eternity. Yayy. Or, there's the reincarnation one, that one actually sounds kinda cool. Although if that one is true, I'm sorta content with my current life. If you come back as a ghost, I suppose that's cool. But what about when the earth's gone? Space could get boring.

Originally Posted by erinys

here's what I think: your opinion doesn't effect reality.

believing in a fairy tale doesn't make it real.

True, but what if that fairy tale were truth?

I do believe in an afterlife, but to be honest it's only because I fear in the nothing. We all know that period between sleep and awake when you are unconscious, where your memory fails to work, when your mind shuts off. I fear knowing that there will be a time when I can no longer experience existence.

Originally Posted by Lunchbox*

Unconsciousness doesn't equal dying

death is like permanent unconsciousness.

Yes, Earth. Yes, the universe. I don't know how I can show you me considering it. Should I post a picture of me looking inquisitive?

oh, a clever one are you. Here, let me put this in a way you should be able to understand, and we can try again.

you are a physical being, you cannot leave physical reality. Now explain to me (erinys) how you (Lunchbox) think (since I'm sure you wouldn't be arrogant enough to claim you knew) how you (a physical being) can leave the Universe (or physical reality).

Explain gravity. No one knows what gravity is, only its affects. No one can "feel" gravity, or weigh it, it just happens to be there. It's not made of matter, but it's there. So why not a soul?

apparently you don't know anything about gravity. I don't blame you, I don't know much about it either. But to say no one knows what gravity is? Well, that's just plain absurd. Here, why don't you look it up on Wikipedia. Hell, I'll look it up for you. It's the Simple English Wikipedia, so even you can understand it: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation

anyway, here's a simple enough explanation of what gravity is: it is the force by which objects with mass attract other objects with mass. You feel gravity all the time, by the way. You know, it's that force that pulls you towards the ground. Don't tell me you can't feel that. It's the force that makes dense things heavy, don't tell me you can't feel that. We can "weigh" gravity, since it is gravity that gives everything its weight. We can measure gravity just like any other force.

gravity is a natural physical phenomenon with physical effects on the physical world.

the soul? Well, first of all, I already asked you: what the hell is a soul? I don't even know. But if a soul is not physical and does not physically effect the physical world then it cannot physically exist in physical reality. Therefore, I don't have a soul. We know what gravity is, and we know what effects it has. What effects does the soul have?

A god would exist outside the laws of physics. He wouldn't have to follow the laws we have to follow. You can't seem to wrap your head around this.

no, I can wrap my head around it just fine. Like I told you, however, if God exists outside of the laws of physics, then he is not physical and doesn't exist in physical reality. He's imaginary. Therefore, he has no effect on the physical world or on my physical existence and I can safely ignore him until he decides to actually exist.

on the other hand, maybe you're right. After all, you're describing a paradox. An outright contradiction. It's hard to wrap my mind around such nonsense, you could say.

Source?

got the statistic from Wikipedia lol.

but before you go bashing on Wikipedia and its "inaccuracies," yeah, here's the source:

http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

see how that works? Wikipedia articles have to cite sources for everything they say. That way, it's accurate. You should take a lesson from that. Do you have any sources even indicating the possibility of a soul? Or a god? Or an afterlife?

And, this could be many different things: Misinformation on the Americans' fault,

oh, almost certainly. Americans are fed so much misinformation from their religion it's not even funny. Not even almost funny. I mean, I'm not even smiling it's so unfunny. It makes me sad to think about it even. It's sad!

mis-interpretation on Gallop's fault (which is what, by the way?),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallup_poll
http://www.gallup.com/Home.aspx

Gallup (did I say Gallop earlier? I mean Gallup) is well known for their opinion polls. They're usually considered pretty accurate, but hey, I don't know, I'm no expert.

the questions could have been vague/misleading, etc.

the question was, exactly: "Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings? (1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process. (2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process. (3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."

Sounds cynical, but it's possible. And, also, have you ever partaken in a poll like this? I certainly haven't. And no one I know has, either.

well, actually, no, but what's your point?

Statistics are usually the statistics of a single region/area/section of some place and then automatically assumed to be the same all throughout. Half the time, statistics are unreliable.

this was a nationwide poll.

also, really, what the hell does it matter? I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with anything, besides you trying to back up your argumentum ad populum fallacy, which is still a fallacy no matter how you look at it. Either way, I can be absolutely sure that there is a significant number of people in America who believe the world is around 10,000 years old, which is demonstrably false. We have physical evidence telling us otherwise.

Again, it's possible these thoughts could be transferred to someplace else, via the soul, or God, or whatever. Like john's reference to HDD's, but spiritual.

and again I tell you:

Originally Posted by erinys

the brain cannot transmit signals out of your skull and through the air. If it could we would know about it because we would be able to detect those signals. Brainwaves can only be detected by putting electrodes right on the surface of your head because they don't make it any further than that.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you know everything about God and how he works.

I forgive you, don't worry about it. You're not the only one. Most people, in fact, don't realize this until too late.

no, but seriously, I should be the one who's sorry. I didn't realize you were so thickheaded. Please forgive me for my shortsightedness.

anyway, I don't actually have to know anything about God to say what I just said, so I'd like to see you at least try to refute it before completely ignoring it. Let me quote it again for you so you don't have an excuse to not reply again. Just to show you that it doesn't have to have anything to do with me and my limitless knowledge about God, I replaced "God" with "entity." Feel free to fill in "entity" with any given entity of your choice, be it God, Jesus, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn, Tinkerbell, Obi Wan Kenobi, Chuck Norris, etc.

Originally Posted by erinys

a nonphysical [entity] is only an idea or a concept. It cannot create anything physical, it cannot have any effect on anything physical. A Universe with a nonphysical [entity] is physically identical to a Universe without a[n entity] (except for the physical manifestations of the concept of [the entity], such as the books and thoughts about [the entity]). A nonphysical [entity] cannot communicate with physical humans, cannot hear or reply to prayer, cannot bring about the apocalypse, cannot judge humans and send them to the afterlife, cannot do anything to the physical world.

Originally Posted by vacumgod

True, but what if that fairy tale were truth?

then it would be true even if you didn't believe in it. Once again I repeat: your opinion doesn't effect reality.

believing in a fairy tale doesn't make it real.

Originally Posted by erinys

Once again I repeat: your opinion doesn't effect reality.

Careful there, we could argue for hours of subjectivity vs. objectivity. I could easily roll out with the classic "reality is perceived, not received" and all our scientific evidence is based upon others observations not our individual own.


I know where your coming from, science does not adhere to any sort of afterlife, god and heaven, reincarnation totally not possible. These are all human constructions so something that has not been experience firsthand long enough to gain any empirical evidence, what interests me more with the afterlife is what happens to our mind, if it can be retained outside of the brain (on a theoretical quantum/string/etc. level). Just the fact that we think with electronic signals makes me wonder that perhaps there is something else going on, not on a religious level of course.

Check out this reading and PM me your thoughts

http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

No, not at all.
I'm pretty interested in all those 'end of the world' theories and I kind of wish one would come true.

Really so much nonsense.

Your people used to think heaven was on top of the damn clouds, what happened when flight let us shoot the crap out of that idea? You compromised. "Oh it must be somewhere else".

Truth never needs to compromise, your religion has been shot into pieces, and only manages through compromise.
It cannot be true.

If any gods were so petty, that not worshipping them equals a one way ticket to eternal suffering, then you know what? F*** them. Worship only that which is worthy.

Nothing that is that petty and that pathetic, will EVER be worthy of worship. I'm better than that, and if there is no god out there that is better a person than I am, then there is nothing worth worshipping.

Christianity is the only religion that is so petty and so much of a bully, that it needs to use scare tactics to bring in followers. The way you speak makes me feel that you only really believe out of fear.

No other religion is so lowly as to employ such underhanded tactics.

Christianity is one of the youngest religions, has had many of its views shot down. Not to mention hell was invented in the plaguetimes. Find a new religion or even better stop having one, start focusing on life, because if you waste yours, you have failed as a human being. No one is going to give a damn about someone who is wasteful.

You put out alot of christian vibes, you'd know then that once you die according to christianity that is it, you have no more business in the world. You can do no good once you die, regardless if you "survive" in some form.

It is foolish to worry about a time when you can do nothing to alter the course of your life.

Maybe you should start being concerned with driving safely, and not filling your body up with poisons, or even *gasp*, doing good things to help make the world around you a better place.

Pointless worrying will only get you a bed in a psych ward, and then you may as well be dead, or in a coma. You can do something with your life right now, right this second, stop your sniveling and do something, before it is too late.

You aren't immortal, you will die, and your time here will be over. You only get one life, no continues. I recommend you start utilizing it in a wiser manner.