God says: All gay-haters should be burned to death.

Originally Posted by CWP

still sets up a lot of standards Christians should live by in his epistles. One is still to continue doing what God intended when he made man and woman--fill the earth. God considers homosexuality an abomination and that's not how he set everything up in the world. Man is supposed to be with a woman, and that's how they fill the earth.

fill the earth!?
really?
Dude, let me share with you a gem of truth.
The earth is full, we already filled it up nice and good.
More than that, big parts of it is overpopulated.
The need to "fill the earth" is really really nonexisting.

So, first off, welcome to the SD Sahrrie. Don't be too off-put by the responses, people here can be rather...intense. Myself included.

Originally Posted by Sahrrie

Anyone can be a Christian.
However, if a homosexual were truly Christian, they wouldn't desire to be homosexual any longer.

I, thankfully, do not know any Gay Christians who feel this way.

I do know of such people, though, and this view always messes them up badly. Very badly.

See, they can't change their orientation, any more than you can, through an act of will, change your gender.

But they're also convinced that being gay is a terrible sin.

So they hate themselves. For every waking moment of every day they despise these perfectly natural (and, indeed, in the case of love, wonderful) emotions that they have no control over.

The damage done to them is immense.

I've seen homosexual converted heterosexual on the Christian board I often frequent. With God, anything is possible.

Sexuality is fluid, but it is not subject to personal will.

So it is not impossible to change orientation, but it won't be because you want to, it'll be something that happens.

However, this is rare enough that I'm betting that one of three things has happened there:

They were only gay during their teenage years, when sexuality changes very rapidly.
They're still gay, but in denial (see above on how messed up this makes a person)
They're bisexual and are just denying their gay side. (Most people are at least slightly Bi, so this isn't all that uncommon.)

I believe that it is Satan who is responsible for homosexuality. I mean, Satan can only work with what is already inside of us. He cannot put things or desires in us, but he can sure make the ones that are already there stronger.

What on earth is wrong or evil about homosexuality?
It involves people who love each other deeply.

Imagine that someone gets a homosexual thought
Then here comes Satan, and he entertains this thought, to where it eventually leads to a desire, and then that person goes about seeking to fulfill that desire.

So, Satan is in favour of loving relationships?

Originally Posted by Sahrrie

If God approved of homosexual Christians, then he'd have to approve of all the people that are in Church every Sunday and are sinning.

How is being gay a sin?

Or rather, is something a sin because God says it is? (In which case right and wrong are completely and totally arbitrary) or does God say something is a sin because it is innately evil?

If the latter, then how is being gay evil?

Show me the harm it does.

For example, all the obese 'Christians' WITHOUT medical problems. I've seen obese people that are in Church, but, the bottom line is, God doesn't approve of gluttony. (That is, if there isn't a medical problem involved.)

Obesity is not the same thing as gluttony.

If God let willful sinners get away with their sin, as opposed to all of the people out there that are following ALL His commandments, then He wouldn't exactly be the fair and just God that He is, now would He?

If God treats homosexuality as a sin then he is not fair or just.

You say that God isn't fair, but God made everything that you see around you. He made fair and unfair, me and you, and to say that He is unfair just doesn't stand because He's the reason that anything is fair.

Your argument doesn't actually scan.

See, if God gave us a sense of morality, then we can conclude that God is being immoral, by the standards he gave us.

And he is unfair. That's easy enough to see.

Originally Posted by Sahrrie

Hitler didn't create the Aryans to serve him.
He isn't their maker.

So?

You cannot compare Hitler to God.
You might say: "Well, God is sending all the people that don't follow Him to Hell, just like Hitler killed all the Jews just because he didn't like them."

But God doesn't send people to Hell.

Yes he does.

He created hell (read Revelation to see that), he personally casts all the sinners into hell (again, read Revelation) and even if he didn't personally send them there he made the rules that send them there.

Just because Hitler didn't, personally, shoot every Jew in the head doesn't mean he didn't kill them.

In Christianity, there are only two ways to go, either you choose to let God be your master, or you choose Satan. When you die, if you didn't choose God, then it is equivalent to choosing Satan as your master, so you are being put with who you chose.

God's justice is based on a false dichotomy? Not very just, then.

Originally Posted by Sahrrie

God created us for a purpose, though.
Everyone is going against that purpose in favor of their own purposes.
He created Adam and Eve to become husband and wife, and the same goes for all future generations afterward.

So single people are an abomination?

Christianity holds the largest number of followers out of any of the other major faiths of the world. Christians already know that they aren't going to be taken seriously by most people. In fact, they should anticipate persecution. Jesus says:

You don't see the contradiction in this paragraph?

If you're the largest religion in the world, then why would you be persecuted or not taken seriously? More people take your faith seriously than any other faith on the planet.

Question: Is that fair to God?
He created us for a reason, and that reason wasn't so that we could live for ourselves.

Then he is selfish.

Tell me, let's say that you go into chemistry and biology and become a genius at both. Through a massive amount of work you manage to create a simple life form.

Let's stretch reality further and have you create an intelligent life form.

Is it right for you to insist that they do everything you say? That they be slaves to you?

Yes, it does, because the atheist never put their faith in Christ.
They believed they could in effect "save themselves" by doing good deeds.

I'm an atheist, I used to be a Christian who did put his faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

You're ignoring all the other passages that say how it is through faith, not works, that one is saved.

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.""

That's hardly fair or just, is it?

Originally Posted by Amatería

Are you sure?

Yep. The crimes of Sodom get spelt out in detail throughout the other books of the Bible. Homosexuality is never one of them.

Instead, their crime is an attempt to mistreat guests.

Try reading, say, Paul for more information.

Leviticus 18 is self-explanatory.

Indeed, but the rest of Leviticus goes on about how eating shellfish is an abomination, as is wearing mixed fibres, etc.

As Romans does, Corinthians also has two parts that were purposefully not connected by the verses in between. The second part addresses how when someone has Christ in them, they are new creations. While the homosexuality may still be there, the wish to express it is gone, effectively making it "disappear".

Shame that reality contradicts this.

I am a Christian, and I am against homosexuality, but not homosexuals. If I make a friend who is homosexual, I'm going to try and help them realize that it's wrong eventually.

That sound pretty "anti-homosexual" to me. It's like trying to cure someone of being black.


Edit: To be clearer: I do understand where you're coming from. If homosexuality is a sin, and if being in a gay relationship will damn you to hell, then it is a moral act to try and stop people from being gay. But, and here's the thing, most people would argue that your proof for those two "if"s is very weak.

Whatever happened to "Father, forgive them for they do not know"? Please, somebody, tell me whatever happen to that? I think homosexuality is a sin yes but I don't care if you are gay or whatnot. It's your business, it's your life. I never have and never will have the power to judge anyone, that ain't my department and it shouldn't be any religious nut job to judge. Stop reading the Old Testament as a way of life and awaken yourself to The New Testament and Jesus ways of loving everyone.

Oh wait, what the hell am I saying? Religion > Faith

Originally Posted by CWP

The epistles also teach a lot for the modern-day Christian. They were written by Paul to the Christian churches who were struggling with the ways of the Old Testament. I love the books after the Gospels like Hebrews and 1st and 2nd Peter, because they help reteach the Old Covenant with Christ on our side now. Anyway, other than the sacrificing and such, Paul still sets up a lot of standards Christians should live by in his epistles.

Paul's books were regarded as some of the most sexist books in history, and they were equally controversial 1700 years ago as now.

Originally Posted by CWP

One is still to continue doing what God intended when he made man and woman--fill the earth.

Congratulations, we are overpopulated.

Originally Posted by CWP

God considers homosexuality an abomination and that's not how he set everything up in the world.

Sure he did. How about you become homosexual? Notice how hard it is, and I'm not talking about just having sex with someone of your own gender, but to actually be homosexual? Yeah, that's my situation when I try become heterosexual.

Originally Posted by CWP

Man is supposed to be with a woman, and that's how they fill the earth.

Congratulations, Earth is filled to the brink! Now, what about sterile couples?

Originally Posted by CWP

I truly think that homosexuality is against God's rules and I just don't understand the growing community of homosexual Christians who don't see that. They even start churches just for people like them.

I truly think that wearing mixed fibers is against God's rules and I just odn't understand the growing community of Christians who wear mixed fibers who don't see that. They even start churches just for people like them.

...

And the irony is that you can actually stop sinning by not wearing mixed fibers, CWP. Yet you refuse. Why? All sin is equal in God's eyes. You wear mixed fibers. You probably eat shellfish. You shave. You eat food that has been crop rotated. Why won't you stop sinning?

Originally Posted by CWP

Don't they realize that God sent brimstone upon an entire city because of the homosexuality within?

Except that the story of Sodom had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

Originally Posted by fratey

Paul's books were regarded as some of the most sexist books in history, and they were equally controversial 1700 years ago as now.

Er, no.

First off, Paul clearly has no problem with women leading churches (He writes encouraging letters to at least one of them).

It's suspected that the anti-woman sentiment was added later, and even then it was remarkably mild for the time.

Hardly a shining example of gender equality, and it makes no sense if everything in the Bible is the divine word of God, but it's better than it could've been.

Jeffery Dahmer. He enjoyed killing people. Stupid Christians think it's wrong to kill people. But if it's something you truly enjoy, then I am happy for you that you love to kill people. And if you want to get AIDS by penetrating another man then by all means do it.

A lot of you guys are trying to play it safe here. "I don't hate gay people, it's there life let them do what they want to!" And you are probably the first person in real life to be bashing on them with your friends. You guys sound the same in every thread, and not only that, but it seems as though someone created 9 profiles and posted here.

I'm not debating here, but I had to say something.

But since little Bobby just innocently wants to stick his pp into his friends butthole then that must mean that God doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by John

Er, no.

First off, Paul clearly has no problem with women leading churches (He writes encouraging letters to at least one of them).

It's suspected that the anti-woman sentiment was added later, and even then it was remarkably mild for the time.

I never knew this.

Originally Posted by Acid

Jeffery Dahmer. He enjoyed killing people. Stupid Christians think it's wrong to kill people. But if it's something you truly enjoy, then I am happy for you that you love to kill people. And if you want to get AIDS by penetrating another man then by all means do it.

A lot of you guys are trying to play it safe here. "I don't hate gay people, it's there life let them do what they want to!" And you are probably the first person in real life to be bashing on them with your friends. You guys sound the same in every thread, and not only that, but it seems as though someone created 9 profiles and posted here.

I'm not debating here, but I had to say something.

But since little Bobby just innocently wants to stick his pp into his friends butthole then that must mean that God doesn't exist.

What?

Acid

you just confused the crud out of me, what are you talking about?

Originally Posted by fratey

What?

**** I don't know, I'm rambling. Tried spice up the thread a little.

Originally Posted by Acid

Jeffery Dahmer. He enjoyed killing people. Stupid Christians think it's wrong to kill people. But if it's something you truly enjoy, then I am happy for you that you love to kill people. And if you want to get AIDS by penetrating another man then by all means do it.

Oh boy, problems.

Murder is wrong because it hurts other people.
Gay sex does not. (aside, I suppose, from gay S&M, but since straight S&M is apparently fine this hardly seems to count.)

Next, gay sex isn't any more likely to give you AIDS than straight sex is.

Originally Posted by Sahrrie

This is just like the question that every witnessing Christian faces at some point or another: "If God loves us all, why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?"

Because this world doesn't belong to God anymore, the ruler/king of this earth is Satan.


John 14:30
"I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me."
Jesus clearly defines Satan as the ruler of the earth, so how can God possibly break His own laws and try to govern something that is no longer His? The only way that anyone can receive true peace is through Jesus. If you personally come to God and ask for help, then He can help - however, not so many people are willing to do such a thing.

Off topic, but I just had to bring that up before someone asked about it. (:

[...]


I believe that it is Satan who is responsible for homosexuality. I mean, Satan can only work with what is already inside of us. He cannot put things or desires in us, but he can sure make the ones that are already there stronger.

[...]

Satan will look for any way that he possibly can to cause people to sin against God.

...
I hope that helps you out.
Any more questions, and I'd be glad to assist! (:

Forgive me for a small digression, but I have significant academic interest in Satan and how the figure of Satan is understood -- I'd like it if you could elaborate on where your ideas about Satan are rooted.

And I'd like to throw a challenge regarding Satan as (currently) ruler of this world, with John 12.31-33 (NRSV)

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die.

----

Next, gay sex isn't any more likely to give you AIDS than straight sex is

To be entirely fair, there are higher rates of HIV infections among MSMs than among the general population in North America, and the risk of transmission is higher in unprotected anal sex (because the tissues of the rectum are more likely to tear) than in almost any other activity. Young gay men must exercise caution, and I believe it is harmful to pretend the risks are less than they are.

Lesbians, on the other hand, are one of the lowest-risk groups.

Ah, fair point. I was meaning to say in protected sex, because yes, in unprotected the odds do go up (though that's also true if you're having anal sex with a girl. It's the orifices, not the genders, that matters.)

Yeah, Gays just marry to have sex. What a juvinile point.

Nope, there are Gay couples that truly love each other.
Everyone can fall in love atleast once in their lives, your point it's ridiculous.
but to express love there's no need of sex.
anyone can have sex, in my opinion sex it's just for procreation.
Love it's a completely different matter.
But if gays want to have sex, let them be, you can't stop them anyway.
God doesn't like Gay sex, big deal.
choose your boy/girlfriend over religion, you have the right to do so.
God loves everyone and will never push you to do things you don't want...God it's like a loving mother, he will always love you no matter what you do.
but if you believe that having gay sex will make you rott in hell...well...you have the right to choose.
i am Catholic myself and i have to admit that some of us have crossed the line.
Note:You don't have to be Christian or Catholic to hate gays, there are atheists that hate them too.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

Nope, there are Gay couples that truly love each other.

Just as there are heterosexual couples that love each other too. No need for scare quotations here, you should know how to put points up properly.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

but to express love there's no need of sex.

Of course not! However, it's an aspect of love that is truly amazing.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

anyone can have sex

Precisely! Oh wait, that isn't true at all. :/

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

in my opinion sex it's just for procreation.

Your opinion is separated from the vast majority of the population.
Also, why shouldn't sterile/impotent couples have the right to have sex?

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

Love it's a completely different matter.

Sex is an aspect in love.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

But if gays want to have sex, let them be, you can't stop them anyway.

Why would you want to stop them?

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

God doesn't like Gay sex, big deal.

Prove it.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

choose your boy/girlfriend over religion, you have the right to do so.

It's not choosing one thing above another.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

God loves everyone and will never push you to do things you don't want...

Abraham

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

but if you believe that having gay sex will make you rott in hell...well...you have the right to choose.

Why would it make someone rot in hell? Why will love make one rot in hell? You're crossing the line here.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

i am Catholic myself and i have to admit that some of us have crossed the line.

Sure you have. Your arguments are full of holes. You have yet to respond why having sex with the same gender is more of a sin than wearing mixed fibers.

Sure you have. Your arguments are full of holes. You have yet to respond why having sex with the same gender is more of a sin than wearing mixed fibers.

hahaha, Even heterosexual sex it's considered an deadly sin if doen before Marriage, you got to say that God doesn't make things easy for the humans, specially how lustful and temped the humanity can get.
i am quite asexual myself so all that stuff doesn't present me problems.
but because of that i might never get married...that's besides the point.

Abraham

That was to test Abrahams's Loyalty...God even promised he won't do that again.

Of course not! However, it's an aspect of love that is truly amazing.

Amazing? well...i don't know what to say.
Sex it's beautiful if you love someone, done with no love it's just plain gross...well that's just my opinion.

Why would it make someone rot in hell? Why will love make one rot in hell? You're crossing the line here.

That is called consequences of deadly sins, but remember MAYBE none of the religions are real, and thus that would never happen to anyone...OK? if that's offensive i apologize.

You have yet to respond why having sex with the same gender is more of a sin than wearing mixed fibers.

I would like to know...i haven't read the bible in a while...i might get to check it.

it's just a belief i have, you don't have to hate me for that.
i don't hate you just beacuse you support certain stuff...it's a ridiculous reason to hate someone.

Originally Posted by CWP

The epistles also teach a lot for the modern-day Christian. They were written by Paul to the Christian churches who were struggling with the ways of the Old Testament. I love the books after the Gospels like Hebrews and 1st and 2nd Peter, because they help reteach the Old Covenant with Christ on our side now. Anyway, other than the sacrificing and such, Paul still sets up a lot of standards Christians should live by in his epistles. One is still to continue doing what God intended when he made man and woman--fill the earth. God considers homosexuality an abomination and that's not how he set everything up in the world.

The Epistles were interpretations by men of the teachings of Jesus. Interpretations are not definitive. I wasn't aware that Christianity was a belief in people other than Christ.

Man is supposed to be with a woman, and that's how they fill the earth. I truly think that homosexuality is against God's rules and I just don't understand the growing community of homosexual Christians who don't see that.

The earth is full. I could VERY easily argue that, given global overpopulation, homosexuality is indeed a part of the plan. In fact, overpopulation is so severe that really: more people should be gay. Homosexuality has been observed throughout the animal kingdom; I see nothing outside the Old Testament to suggest that it's outside the divine order.

They even start churches just for people like them. Don't they realize that God sent brimstone upon an entire city because of the homosexuality within? I don't think that he agrees with these churches.

Maybe God did, but Jesus didn't.

The more and more I hear about god, the more and more I come to the conclusion that he is an ******* who, even if he did exist, doesn't deserve the time of day...

I'm also growing quite annoyed at religion, and not just the fundamentals but the people who claim their religion is a peaceful one WHEN GOD BLOWS UP A *****ING CITY! Or whatever...

I mean, it seems sorta petty just to destroy a city, going "alright I've had it you all stop bumming or you are dead" and I don't care how many people say god loves us, its like a bad relationship, you two are together but he doesn't likes the way you laugh, SO HE CASTS YOU INTO ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!

But its early in the morning, I'm not quite to my logical self so you can disregard this if you wish.

Originally Posted by Nictel

Then why is it still being used?

Mostly because not everything in the Old Testament was nullified.

If you do want a religious book, then the leaders of that religion should come together and point out wise men and women who will write a new book. Written with examples and the standards of today.

Well the Bible is sort of like a storybook. You wouldn't change a story to "fit to today's standards", would you?

How can we look at two people in love and say that it is wrong, that they are sick, that they need help? Is the way to a good life not in our hearts? Do we not feel pain when we see the hungry, the poor, the hurt? Do we not feel the need to help them? True faith is in our hearts. Not in books or buildings.

The book of James tells us that our actions show our true faith.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

hahaha, Even heterosexual sex it's considered an deadly sin if doen before Marriage, you got to say that God doesn't make things easy for the humans, specially how lustful and temped the humanity can get.
i am quite asexual myself so all that stuff doesn't present me problems.
but because of that i might never get married...that's besides the point.

You know, I sometimes draw lines between girls and Christians - both seem to love doing tangents to avoid answering the question.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

That was to test Abrahams's Loyalty...God even promised he won't do that again.

Now that totally contradicts with him being omnipotent, all-compassionate, and omniscient.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

Amazing? well...i don't know what to say.
Sex it's beautiful if you love someone, done with no love it's just plain gross...well that's just my opinion.

Precisely. And again, most people who have sex love each other, heterosexual or homosexual.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

That is called consequences of deadly sins, but remember MAYBE none of the religions are real, and thus that would never happen to anyone...OK? if that's offensive i apologize.

Love fulfills the law completely, heterosexual or not! Open your bible and read Romans 13:8.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

it's just a belief i have, you don't have to hate me for that.

I don't hate a single person in this world. The fact that you're considering what I am saying makes me very happy.

Originally Posted by Mask Collector

i don't hate you just beacuse you support certain stuff...it's a ridiculous reason to hate someone.

I hope you don't.

Originally Posted by Mikhael

Mostly because not everything in the Old Testament was nullified.

Well the Bible is sort of like a storybook. You wouldn't change a story to "fit to today's standards", would you?

The book of James tells us that our actions show our true faith.

Shakespeare. It has gotten countless adaptations, including those where the language and setting have been translated to modern times.