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  #61 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 08:30 AM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pignoah View Post
The woman is just as likely to have a traumatic episode after abortion mind.
No.
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  #62 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 09:13 AM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Care to elaborate? I know a girl who had an abortion and it's very upsetting to her and it's pretty understable. I don't know how you could just say 'no' to something you couldn't possibly know anyway. How would you know how all women felt?
Last Edited by Pignoah; 06-03-2009 at 09:38 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #63 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 09:38 AM
Emperor Mateus Emperor Mateus is a male Emperor Mateus is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Forgive me fratey, but I wanted to address Pignoah as... well, it's blatantly obvious why adoption is much harder than abortion. I won't grace Pignoah with a personal reply, but rather paste a comprehensive, easy to address package to show him why it's harder and in some cases, possibly more detrimental for women than abortion can be.

Quote:
If an abortion is painful physically, it's nothing compared to nine months of pregnancy and eventually labour at the end. Even for women who really want a child, pregnancy can be uncomfortable or even hard. Pregnancy can even kill you if you get an interesting condition like preeclampsia. Labour is painful for anyone and a pregnancy and birth will leave marks on your mind and body for the rest of your life. If your child is wanted, this can be a joyful thing. But if the pregnancy is unwanted and you're still left with the signs of it ever after? I think not.

Giving up your child is as hard a decision as having an abortion, if not harder. In the fifties many unwed women were forced to give up their children. In the last few years ever more stories have come from those birthmothers, telling how much it has hurt them to have been forced to do this, and how hard it has been for them to never see their children or know how they were. So, apart from the physical hardship of pregnancy and labour, giving up a child also means psychological problems for the mother. And then there is the child that is being given up. Without wanting to say anything bad about adoptive parents, many adopted children have problems with the idea that their own mother didn't want them. They have questions about where they come from. Even for the child who has no choices to make, adoption can cause psychological damage. When a child has no parents left, adoptive parents are a wonderful substitute. But that does not mean that adoption is an ideal solution for the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Moreover, it is already hard to find adoptive parents for children with problems. Will there actually be people to adopt those extra children born if more mothers decide to give up their babies?

Now all this may come across as if I mean to say that abortion is actually better than adoption. I'm not sure which one is better. What bothers me about the discussion is at this moment, many people who are advocating adoption seem to do this on the grounds that abortion is physically and psychologically detrimental to the woman undergoing it. I have no doubt that it can be, but a pregnancy, birth and giving up of your baby is to my mind just as detrimental (if not more so). The anti-choice parties calling for adoption as an alternative, do not do so because their main concern is the welfare of the women, they do so because they believe that 'prenatal rights' trumps women's rights, no matter what.
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  #64 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 09:45 AM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Pignoah View Post
Care to elaborate? I know a girl who had an abortion and it's very upsetting to her and it's pretty understable. I don't know how you could just say 'no' to something you couldn't possibly know anyway. How would you know how all women felt?
I didn't say "all women", I said that abortion generally causes less distress than adoption.
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  #65 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 09:49 AM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I think I phrased my 'abortion is just as traumatic' sentence badly. I'm saying it can be not that, by some rule, it will always be that way.

Hell, the mother, may know a family who wants a child and is happy to pass on the child to them. This might make her very happy. I can't really speak personally because I'm a guy and I hate kids but it seems like you guys are trying to downplay the emotional difficulties behind getting an abortion.

If it were up to me I'd choose abortion for the reasons you've stated and because of over-population and what-not. But you can't just say 'this is harder and that is it' as though it is fact because it's a different experience for everyone, it's totally personal, you can't throw logic at it and expect it to work because emotion isn't logical. Yeah many adopted kids get upset over it, and many don't. Many mothers get upset over one thing, and many don't. It's solely up to the mother, there is no better solution.


But just for the record, I agree with you guys, I just think you've got the idea into your heads that abortion isn't a traumatic experience, when for many women I'm sure it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fratey View Post
I didn't say "all women", I said that abortion generally causes less distress than adoption.
You said 'No' actually. And, again, how would you know?
Last Edited by Pignoah; 06-03-2009 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #66 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 09:55 AM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Just for the record, Pignoah, I agree with you too in most subjects here, just that I want to play around :p
Quote:
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But you can't just say 'this is harder and that is it'
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Originally Posted by fratey View Post
generally
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  #67 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 09:59 AM
Emperor Mateus Emperor Mateus is a male Emperor Mateus is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I am a woman and I don't take abortion lightly at all. I'd rather never have to one at all, but would like the option to be avaliable for me (and all other women) in the case that we ever do feel we need it/actually need it. I have no doubts that abortion affects some women more than others, but to me, an early abortion would no doubt be much more physically, mentally and emotionally easier than going all the way through a pregnancy, developing those hormones, giving birth... and then hand the baby away, never to see it again. Some may view that as casual or even cold, but there is a striking difference between the two, especially when the matter of choice is taken is taken into consideration. I'm sure a forced abortion is just as incredibly painful and traumatic as a forced pregnancy/birth.
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  #68 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Alright cool i'm just making sure we're all on the same page here.I
Did you guys hear about the thing in Sweden? Where people can get abortions based on the gender of their child? I didn't get the problem, because if women have the right then women have the right full stop. I'm not sure of the abortion laws in Sweden but I presumed it was legal, but I didn't think women had to justify it, i thought you just y'know, got one.
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  #69 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 10:33 AM
TheLastRito TheLastRito is a female United States TheLastRito is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I just want to put in that I think the pro-life arguuments that "why stop a beating heart" is stupid because

a) most abortions are done in the first 6 weeks, before the fetus even has a heart and
b) a lot of these people are not vegetarians . They're saying "a life is a life" while eating carcasses.
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  #70 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 11:28 AM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pignoah View Post
Did you guys hear about the thing in Sweden? Where people can get abortions based on the gender of their child?
Putting it like that is extremely stupid and is stupidity made by the Christian right.
In fact, it's two separate subjects
* It's possible to find the gender of the child. This has been possible a good while.
* Abortions are legal until a specific date. This has also been possible a good while. No justifying is needed.

With that logic, it's like "Did you hear about Sweden, where people can get abortions because they don't eat green food". Plain stupid.
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  #71 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I can't tell if you're calling me stupid or the story. I'm just reiterating the story.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...tton-28148687/

edit: infact upon reading your reply a second time i think you misunderstood my post.
Last Edited by Pignoah; 06-03-2009 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #72 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 01:52 PM
Tar Potomi Źëngrīn Tar Potomi Źëngrīn is a male United States Tar Potomi Źëngrīn is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

question!

how can you "kill" something that is not technically alive?
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  #73 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 01:55 PM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pignoah View Post
I can't tell if you're calling me stupid or the story. I'm just reiterating the story.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...tton-28148687/

edit: infact upon reading your reply a second time i think you misunderstood my post.
I understood your post - and I'm definitely not calling you stupid.
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  #74 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 02:06 PM
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by candc32 View Post
question!

how can you "kill" something that is not technically alive?
Pro-Lifers consider them alive.
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  #75 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 03:10 PM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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question!
how can you "kill" something that is not technically alive?

Alive is debatable unfortunately.
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  #76 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 04:03 PM
Flames of Valor United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Pignoah View Post
Alive is debatable unfortunately.
Technically it is alive, but technically it isn't human.
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Last Edited by Flames of Valor; 06-03-2009 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #77 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 04:18 PM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Ok sentient then.
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  #78 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 05:16 PM
John John is a male Canada John is online now
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Oh, definitely not sentient until the end of the second trimester. Not sapient until after that, either.
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  #79 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 05:23 PM
Lehran Lehran is a male United States Lehran is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Not every unwanted pregnancy is a girl "who couldn't keep her legs together" you know.
So then who supposedly "deserves" an abortion?
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  #80 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-03-2009, 05:27 PM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Every woman.
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