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  #21 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-01-2009, 09:57 PM
Emperor Mateus Emperor Mateus is a male Emperor Mateus is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Most 'fathers' I know end up running off and never actually pay any child support at all. :/
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  #22 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-01-2009, 10:02 PM
Avalanchemike Avalanchemike is a male The Byzantine Empire Avalanchemike is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by John View Post
Which happens how often?


And, as I said, that never gets brought up. In these discussions it's always the woman's fault and it's always her that's to be punished.

No one ever notes that, you know, you need two people to make a baby.
It should happen every time.

How often does the male partner get a voice in the abortion? What if he wants to keep the child? Does that ever get brought up in these debates? No, because the males aren't a part of this debate. We're cut out of the picture, "pro-choice" is about leaving the choice in the woman's hands.
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  #23 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-01-2009, 10:06 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Avalanchemike View Post
It should happen every time.

How often does the male partner get a voice in the abortion? What if he wants to keep the child? Does that ever get brought up in these debates? No, because the males aren't a part of this debate. We're cut out of the picture, "pro-choice" is about leaving the choice in the woman's hands.
Mostly because men don't have to live with a parasite threatening their well-being for nine months, at the end of which it may kill them.


I realize I make no allies by using such terms, but please try to at least see the issue that way, even for a second. For the first six months the fetus is not a person. It is not even human. It is a thing that drains the energy of its host and which gives nothing in return.

After that, it's a different matter entirely.



If a couple can come to a consensus on abortion, that's wonderful, but ultimately the final say should be given to the mother. If both had an equal vote then odds are that it would end up a stalemate, which would always mean keeping the child.
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Last Edited by John; 06-01-2009 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-01-2009, 10:54 PM
Slime Canada Slime is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalanchemike View Post
It should happen every time.

How often does the male partner get a voice in the abortion? What if he wants to keep the child? Does that ever get brought up in these debates? No, because the males aren't a part of this debate. We're cut out of the picture, "pro-choice" is about leaving the choice in the woman's hands.
And the male deserves to have a say in this how? Because he had an orgasm? Hardly an equal trade off when you consider the woman has something living inside her body for the better half of a year. Said thing completely changes the structure of said woman's body, can have negative impacts on her health (both mentally and physically), and can put her out of work for quite some time. That, and once the baby is born she has to take care of it, even if she doesn't want to. Not only can that be insanely stressful on the woman, but it probably won't lead to the best life for the child either.

Men shouldn't have any say in this. It's the woman's body and general well-being at stake, so men shouldn't factor into it at all.
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  #25 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 12:32 AM
Dayman Dayman is a male United States Dayman is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by erinys View Post
I don't think anyone here supports killing babies.
No one is, I really dislike the semantics that seperate the two groups.
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  #26 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 01:52 AM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by SheikahSage View Post
If the only reason is that they don't want to raise a child, then adoption is a perfectly good alternative.
I suggest you read this.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.c...ro-lifers.html
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Originally Posted by Catch~22 View Post
If blood stained baby carriages is going to far then please explain to me how 60,000 deaths of potential human beings isn't.
He didn't abort just anyone.
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Originally Posted by Avalanchemike View Post
I've always had a laugh with this one. Just because a child
Sentimentality does not belong in debates, cut it.
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Originally Posted by Avalanchemike View Post
is a product of rape isn't really a reason for killing it, assuming we're going with the whole pro-life spiel. The baby shouldn't be killed for the crimes of it's father, the same way you shouldn't kick the crap out of some kid because his dad did something stupid.
Yeah, because a fetus that doesn't even feel pain or barely has a brain really counts as 'child'.
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  #27 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 02:13 AM
Condi Rice Condi Rice is a male Condi Rice is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I think women should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they want an abortion or not, unless if they are married, I think the father should have a say too. They will have to end up looking after the child, no one else.
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  #28 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 03:51 AM
Emperor Mateus Emperor Mateus is a male Emperor Mateus is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by fratey View Post
Thank you for posting this link, fratey. I saw it a long time ago and could never remember the title or where to find it again, as it's such a thought-provoking piece on how adoption is not always the best or easiest thing to do. I swear, the people who are all like 'omg, you can give the baby away, you don't have to murder it, geeze!'. It's not like giving away a puppy or a pair of shoes, ffs.

George Carlin got it right the first time: These people like the idea of preserving life but won't do a damn thing to help it once it's born. There is very, very little support for young mothers who give up their kids for adoption, let alone for the ones who decide to keep them.

Can't... breathe... hypocrisy is crushing me...
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  #29 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 05:27 AM
The Readeemer The Readeemer is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Pel is back! Yay!

Quote:
And the male deserves to have a say in this how? Because he had an orgasm? Hardly an equal trade off when you consider the woman has something living inside her body for the better half of a year. Said thing completely changes the structure of said woman's body, can have negative impacts on her health (both mentally and physically), and can put her out of work for quite some time. That, and once the baby is born she has to take care of it, even if she doesn't want to. Not only can that be insanely stressful on the woman, but it probably won't lead to the best life for the child either.
Well...it's his kid too, but I nevertheless do agree that a woman's say in such a matter should be more weighted than a guy's. Still, the guy shouldn't be a silent doll or something...*I'm not exactly sure if that's what you're implying though...*
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  #30 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 09:38 AM
Maritimus Maritimus is a male Germany Maritimus is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Evilsbane View Post
I don't understand where the man IS supposed to stand on the issue, though - if he has no no say in the matter then he should also have no responsibility, but then if a child IS born the man has to pay child support. The mother can choose not to sue for child support, but she has the right to if she wants. So it's clear that the father is legally and financially responsible, however he has no say whatsoever in whether it's born? That seems unbalanced somehow.
I must say I have to agree with this. A father has to raise up a child too (or at least he should, although some refuse to). But at least he has to pay for it. Its a difficult situation, it seems unjust to force the mother to have the child, but it also seems unjust to force the father to pay for the child without the ability to refuse to do it.

Really not easy to be fair to both parents
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  #31 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Pignoah Pignoah is a male England Pignoah is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Just because the father has little physical connection with the fetus doesn't mean he shouldn't have a say. However, I reckon it is far easier to give rights to the mother anyway.
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  #32 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 10:22 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I'm all for breaking a bad law, but I don't see much progress from breaking a good law just because you see another injustice taking place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagias
These people like the idea of preserving life but won't do a damn thing to help it once it's born. There is very, very little support for young mothers who give up their kids for adoption, let alone for the ones who decide to keep them.
That's the ironic problem with Conservatives; their social justice stances ultimately run into the massive wall of them being staunchly opposed to welfare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John
It is not even human.
Meh, we've had our discussions about why in elementary terms it is no less human than we are (and therefore arguably a "person" also given the vagueness of the term). It's only less developed, which I could say for an infant as well. It still respires (all living things respire), still processes energy, still grows and develops, etc. It lacks brain function, sure. But I staunchly believe that any kind of exclusive criteria for human beings that is used to deprive them of the same basic rights (life being the most basic of all rights) as those of another kind violates constitutional law. So regardless of the merits, it's still wrong.
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  #33 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 11:58 AM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Artemicion View Post
Meh, we've had our discussions about why in elementary terms it is no less human than we are (and therefore arguably a "person" also given the vagueness of the term). It's only less developed, which I could say for an infant as well.
Then sperm should count as persons too.
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  #34 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 12:55 PM
Puck Puck is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by fratey View Post
Then sperm should count as persons too.
No it can't...It doesn't have enough chromosomes.
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  #35 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 03:10 PM
Wrath of Pong Wrath of Pong is a male United States Wrath of Pong is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
So...women should be punished for having sex?
Like in gambling, a smart person will never risk what they are unwilling to lose. If you have unprotected sex, or use a broken condom, or whatever, there is a high risk you will get pregnant. If you cannot accept that risk, you might want to reconsider having sex.

Quote:
Mostly because men don't have to live with a parasite threatening their well-being for nine months, at the end of which it may kill them.
Oh, so a human fetus is now compared with having a tick on your arm? I guess that does explain a few things about why abortion is so common.

By the way, with modern medicine, the odds of being killed during childbirth is likely around 1 in 5000 at minimum. Its not the 1700s anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spearhead
But what I have trouble with is the whole argument they have for pro-life; that none should get an abortion no matter what.
I can speak only for myself, but under certain circumstances abortion is needed. It just shouldn't be used frivilously. A persons attitude to abortion should be akin to deciding to amputate a finger, not taking a tylonol to get rid of a headache.

Quote:
And why should only the woman be punished for sex? You note that these arguments never say "some 15 year old guy who couldn't keep his pants on", it's always the woman's fault for getting pregnant, and it's always her who should suffer for it.
The woman shouldn't be the only one punished, but unfortunantly (with how most single fathers treat child support) thats what usually happens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fratey
Adoption is obviously a better option for the child. It probably would cause the mother distress, and I sympathise.


On the flip side of the mans part in the abortion thing: what if the man forces the woman to have an abortion when she wants to keep the child? For example, a friend of mine threatened to break up with his girlfriend if she didn't have an abortion. He (probably correctly) believed no one else would want to date him if other girls found out he got a girl pregnant. Meanwhile, his girlfriend wanted the baby, and was torn apart when he pressured her to abort it. She ended up aborting it because he has been her only boyfriend since middleschool and she didn't think she could break up with him. Just some food for thought.
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  #36 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 03:30 PM
fratey Sweden fratey is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Robin Goodfellow View Post
No it can't...It doesn't have enough chromosomes.
So? I'm sure you are aware of how many chromosomes someone with Downs have. Aren't they human?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SheikahSage View Post
Adoption is obviously a better option for the child.
No, not obviously. There's extremely many factors into this - in all cases, it isn't the better option for the child.
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Last Edited by fratey; 06-02-2009 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 03:31 PM
American Soldier United States American Soldier is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

I don't even get why this is still an argment..

It's the woman's choice. It's her body that's being subjected to the parasite, so her say is the ultimatum.
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  #38 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Flames of Valor United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by Sir Calibur View Post
I don't even get why this is still an argment..

It's the woman's choice. It's her body that's being subjected to the parasite, so her say is the ultimatum.
I think the problem for many people is that since it is nearly a born baby, killing it is similar to a killing a newborn.
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:51 PM
Hell Hawk Hell Hawk is a male United States Hell Hawk is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Originally Posted by fratey View Post
There's extremely many factors into this - in all cases, it isn't the better option for the child.
Wait a minuet. Being killed is a better option than growing up under tha care of adopted parents? Your gonna have to explain that one to me.
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  #40 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-02-2009, 04:37 PM
Flames of Valor United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: On Abortion (Split from Dr. Tiller's Murder)

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Wait a minuet. Being killed is a better option than growing up under tha care of adopted parents? Your gonna have to explain that one to me.
Not having to suffer a bad childhood is better for someone who never had the chance to live yet.
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