Islam Discussion Topic

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

So I'd like to know: in your experience how do Muslims argue the beautiful uniqueness of Islam?

All religions speak of good things. For example, not to rape, not to steal and so on.

However, what makes Islam unique that it provides practical Sharia law to try to achieve these good things. The Quran covers a wide variety of subjects and tries to provide laws that are practical to help and resolve disputes.

That is the way I personally believe Islam is unique. It has practical Sharia law to help and resolve problems and not just simply state, what to do and what not to do. It helps Muslims to know what are good and bad things, but also explains how to achieve those good things and how to prevent bad things.

Originally Posted by REBSHADOW09

Is jerking off a sin to islam?

I already answered it:

Originally Posted by Marluxia

Well there are two different views on this.

It is completely forbidden in the Shi'a sect of Islam.

Sunni sect of Islam has a different stance on this. Depending on the circumstances, it can be forbidden or permissible.

Some say it is permissible if one is unmarried, unable to marry or to prevent adultery.

I think the main reason why Masturbation is looked down upon, because there is a possibility of relying on it too much.

Some consider it as Makruh. This means disliked or offensive act. Not the same as Haram which means forbidden. Muslims are encouraged to avoid it as much as possible.

Also one of my teachers shared these tracts comic thing and one was on ISlam and it said something about Islam teaching violence and it teaching that Jesus was a liar and a criminal

What do you think about that?

I am not sure of these tracts comics.

Firstly Jesus (PBUH) is considered a Prophet in Islam. So we would never say he is a liar/criminal.

Secondly Islam does not promote violence.

Oh yeah i hope none of this offends you but would you like me to show you the website with the tracts

Don't worry about it.

Originally Posted by REBSHADOW09

But here is the website

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Ah, I am not sure how I am supposed to respond to this.

Muslims just believe Prophet Jesus was not the son of God and he never died on the cross. That is pretty much it.

I got the impression that the comic book was simply made to convert more people into Christians and prevent people from converting to a Muslim. It showed a Muslim man converting Christianity.

I think that comic book is just used as a tool to convert people into Christianity which is fine I suppose. Some of the points were a bit over the top IMO.

Propganda simply screams from that comic.

Originally Posted by candc32

I have questions:

1. for Islamic people is pleasuring yourself illegal?

Sort of. Like Marluxia said, depending on the situation, if you fear for your chastity, you're semi-allowed to masturbate. Otherwise, you're supposed to hold off on it for as long as you can.

In a Muslim world that followed Shari'ah, people would be encouraged to marry young so that hormones don't drive you insane.

2. is it true that woman are 'slave' to men?

No.

3. is there a central government of Islam (like the Vadican)?

Not any more. We're supposed to have a Caliph, who rules over all Muslims in "Dar al-Islam," the "House of Islam." The last, powerful claimant to the Caliphate was an Ottoman Turkish Emperor, but the Caliphate was abolished there in 1920. The last, legitimate claimant to the Caliphate was Ali (Radiallanhu).

4. if so why do they not weed out corrupt people?

>_>

5. is polygamy legal?

Yes. Polygamy is legal, polyandry is illegal.

Polygamy is the choice of a married couple; the wife gets pretty much the final say of whether or not she wants to share her husband.

Polygamy is encouraged in order to protect widows, not for sex, and is encouraged during times of war when men, who are expected to serve in the army, are dying on the frontlines.

6. in what ways could Muslims make them selves seem not as bad to western people?

The first step is for the Muslim world to realize that we are in the toilet. The second step would be to overthrow the dictators and other unjust rulers.

sorry if my questions are rude or whatever, I'm a noob when it comes to Islam.

It's cool.

Originally Posted by Phazon goron

That is not a right, that depends on the situation entirley. And what if the Mother is a nasty person?

*sigh*

Well, it's settled in a court, but the mother gets bias.

Rights are what people are born with,

lol, and guess what? Gender is what people are born with, too.

If we're going to use a war of words, it's not a matter of breasts, it's a matter of penises vs. vaginas.

just becuase you have boobs dosen't mean you should inherite less from your parents.

The dowry law makes up for it.

What?

Those are minimum requirements, only if there isn't a will. So, the parent can make their will whatever they want, as long as it doesn't dip under the minimum requirements.

Originally Posted by Phazon goron

Inheritance is different to dowry, though. You could inherit an entire mansion through inheritance, and get one hundred blocks of cheese through a dowry.

1) The dowry amount needs to be settled in a court, with witnesses. So, a dowry of a hundred cheese blocks will not happen, unless the wife falls in love with a poor comedian or something.
2) The dowry must be enough to allow the woman to support herself for an agreed amount of time. The dowry is usually, I dunno, a monthly allowance if she doesn't want to work, or maybe a position in the family business if she wants to work, or something.

Originally Posted by The Arbitrator

I'm sure there was a similarly far-fetched creation story, for example, so there would have to be differing interpretations of what that was. I've seen differing interpretations on the prohibition of alcohol, too. Etc etc.

Uh, I don't know what differing interpretations on alcohol you've seen, but it's universally seen that alcohol is completely bad. I think I know what you're talking about, though...

There are three verses in the Qur'an about alcohol.

1) Coming to a prayers drunk is a sin.
2) Drinking alcohol is bad.
3) You are advised to not drink alcohol.

In all, they point to not drinking alcohol. That wasn't so hard, was it?

Straightforward is something like how, when driving in Britain, you must drive on the left. There's no real way to misinterpret that. Religion is never that straightforward

*groan* Uh, yeah it is.

because there are things in the Bible that basically say "don't do this, don't do that", but then there are things which SEEM to repeal all that later on, and there are differing schools of thought on whether or not they actually do. A full reading of any religious texts reveal that they are anything but consistent, and if the Qoran is a compilation of holy books like the Bible, then it too must be rife with them.

If you're not going to bring up anything that I can answer, and instead bring up things you think are given, I think we're done talking.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

This is a universal curiosity for me, and I'd be grateful for a Muslim perspective:

Apologetic and Evangelistic adherents to any given religion necessarily hold their own faith to be particularly "convincing". By characterization, they must feel that some displayable component of their belief distinguishes its truth from the thousands of other "less-accurate" dogmas of the world. For example, its my experience that Argumentative Christians favor academic trivia when making the case the their religion can be definitively set apart from the pack. (Christ's hypothetical fulfillment of various prophesies, the apparent "well constructed" nature of the Lutheran Bible, contrasts between Christ and other claimant prophets, etc.)

I've never had the exposure necessary to determine similar trends in other faith-based cultures, but I assume that they're universally present. So I'd like to know: in your experience how do Muslims argue the beautiful uniqueness of Islam

In my experience? Uh, other Muslims sometimes rely on the emotional stuff like "The Qur'an is beautiful poetry" and stuff.

What I think is what sets Islam away from other religions is our emphasis on thinking and reasoning, and that everything in Islam is advisory, and not forced. I also think that it's laws are very cohesive and very well made, so much that I think that either Muhammad (Peace Be Upon His Soul) is the greatest law maker in the world, or that God indeed wrote the Qur'an.

Originally Posted by candc32

I thought up a new question:
whats is Islam's stance on evolution?

Uh, let's see...

I know many Muslims have a knee jerk reaction to evolution, and think that it goes against Islam.

Evolution doesn't conflict with Islam, except perhaps at the "God created us bit."

But even then, God states a bunch of things in the Qur'an that seem to hint at evolution.

In the Qur'an, it's written that mankind was created in stages.

God also says to us that God can destroy us at any time and replace us with a new creation, which hints that God has done it before.

The Qur'an also tells us that humans were not among the first species on Earth.

Adam (Peace Be Upon His Soul) is a Prophet in Islam. A Prophet always has a message that he carries to a group of people, so if he's the first human, then who did he bring his message to? Some scholars believe that this is a sign that Adam (Peace Be Upon His Soul) was some kind of forerunner for modern humans.

Finally, the Qur'an states that all living things were created from the water, which agrees with the hypothesis about living organisms originating in the water.

But, basically, evolution does not conflict with Islam.

Originally Posted by REBSHADOW09

Is jerking off a sin to islam?

Yeah. Having sexual thoughts about people you are not married to is a sin.

Also one of my teachers shared these tracts comic thing and one was on ISlam and it said something about Islam teaching violence and it teaching that Jesus was a liar and a criminal

What do you think about that?

That tract is full of lies. It's a Chick Tract, isn't it?

Oh yeah i hope none of this offends you but would you like me to show you the website with the tracts

But here is the website

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Yeah. I hope you don't want me to necessarily prove this, but Jack Chick is a blatant liar.

My question is, what exactly is so bad about masturbation? What makes it an act that is warned against?

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

So I'd like to know: in your experience how do Muslims argue the beautiful uniqueness of Islam?

Well beyond purely philosophical arguments for the existence of God, to argue for the religion of Islam specifically, most Muslim (scholars) would point to:

The Quran:

http://www.theinimitablequran.com/index.html

as well as prophecies made by Muhammad.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

My question is, what exactly is so bad about masturbation? What makes it an act that is warned against?

The attitude on masturbation comes from the fact that Muslims are expected to marry young (nowadays, mid to late 20's is normal, but Muslims would be expected to get married in their teens). So, by the time the hormones plug in, it would not be necessary to masturbate.

Masturbation is an act that promotes lust for people who are not permissible for you.

Originally Posted by TheBattler

The attitude on masturbation comes from the fact that Muslims are expected to marry young (nowadays, mid to late 20's is normal, but Muslims would be expected to get married in their teens). So, by the time the hormones plug in, it would not be necessary to masturbate.

So has this 'limit/restriction' become more lenient over the years as the marriage age increased?

Masturbation is an act that promotes lust for people who are not permissible for you.

For example?

Your oversimplifying it by saying just solely based on their gender. Biologically women and men are different.

So? Biologically, I differ very much from other women also, not just from men.

Ah we are not talking about physical differences that you are talking about, such as the colour of the skin/eyes.

Well, you did say men and women are physically different, and therefore should be treated differently. I was using the analogy to illustrate why this is incorrect.

We talking about what men and women mentally and physically capable of. Women can to the task that men are usually assigned to do, as long as they are capable of doing that job.

Then why even divide the genders into different roles at all, with different financial laws pertaining to them? Why not just let people do the jobs they want to or feel inclined to do, as individuals, and treat them the same financially? :/

Women have greater emotional strain than compared to men due to menstrual cycle period.

I'm sorry, but that is completely without foundation. I could just as easily say that men have a greater emotional strain than women due to the greater amount of testosterone in their bodies, which leads to aggression and violent impulses that they may find difficult to control. :/

The gender is presented with tasks that they are able to cope with. Whatever task someone wants to do, regardless of their gender, we assess if they are mentally and physically stable.

Okay, so you've pretty much construed that women aren't as capable as men because they have periods. And you still can't see how that's sexist?

And just from that you are going to abandon all of her other characteristics. She was considered an adult and her physical features had lead to that conclusion.

Her parents accepted the marriage and Aisha was old enough to agree or disagree with the marriage. In those days, children were seen a lot older and usually had a lower life-span.

Even if she was playing with a toy? She herself accepted the marriage and was considered a prodigy with her formidable memory.

She was raised by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and proved women are capable of leadership just as men.

Still, even though she did apparently accept the marriage, there is absolutely no way a six-year old is capable of consenting to sex and marriage like an adult, no matter how intelligent she is. Intelligence =/= maturity. And even though back then, people had shorter life spans, that doesn't mean that they matured correspondingly faster, it just means that they didn't have good living conditions.

Also, Aisha was treasured as a bride as much for her virginity as for her intelligence, which I frankly find sickening.

Well you say it is a sexist system. That is the conclusion that you come up with. It would be more helpful to pin point out from what we have been discussing that strikes to you ‘‘sexist.’’

Well, according to what you've said about Islamic law, it's not sexist if a man receives more inheritance than women, as long as women receive a larger dowry. However, I'd like to point out that the former pertains to a man as an individual, whereas the latter pertains only to a woman as a wife.

In other words, if a man doesn't get married, he'll still get the inheritance. However, the woman's dowry is solely dependent on her getting married, so technically she has far less financial rights as an individual, rather than part of a married couple. What if she never marries?

And, furthermore, there's also this:

Women in Islam have no financial obligations to contribute to the family. It is the burden upon men to provide the financial necessities needed, though women may also work if she feels the need to provide financially to her family. The women get to keep all the property and demand anything that she needs from her husband. It is the role of the husband to provide anything for his wife (of course as long as it is reasonable and he can afford it).

What if women desire self-sufficiency?

Also, what do you have to say about Saudi Arabia, in which women can't even drive nor leave their house without the presence of their male relatives? Why is it so shameful for women to show their skin or their hair that they have to cover themselves up more than men?

Muslim Politician Benazir Bhutto and the leader of the respect party Salma Yaqooub.

Ume Warqa was a female companion of Prophet Muhammad. She was appointed by the Caliph Umar to lead the market committee of Mecca and Medina.

Nearly one third of the Parliament of Egypt consists of women, unlike House of Lords/Commons, which is male dominated.

Razia Sultana a female historic figure ruled over Sultanate of Delhi.

This is evidence that women under Islam can achieve high-ranking positions. Of course, in other countries, culture may prove difficult from achieving these goals but that is culture, not Islam.

That's all well and good. However, from a lot of things you yourself have said, I'd say that they probably achieved those high ranking positions in spite of Islam, not because of it. Also, women can achieve high ranking positions outside of Islam.

Yes but women still face a lot of problems. I’m sure you heard of the glass ceiling effect? Where women have the potential to reach a high status job however unable to reach it.

You do know anti-discrimination laws are very difficult to put into practice? Eaiser to be said than done.

Yep, they certainly do still face a lot of problems.

That doesn't mean we should just give up, however.

It's far, far better to try and fight against discrimination than just resignedly subscribe to a system that basically forces women to adopt the role of wife and mother, even if you think the glass ceiling effect is removed in the process (which it isn't, really).

I would say that women are superior to men, if anything, since they bear children.

Men and women are biologically NOT 100% similar to each other, and those differences are where the laws differ. Laws about children, laws about working, laws about rape...

Women bear children, so they are expected to be the main influence in their child's life in the first few years of their life, and are expected to be head of the household; that doesn't mean they're locked up in their household, and that doesn't mean that the husband doesn't still have an obligation to raising his children.

Women are naturally weaker than men physically. Thus, they are given more protection to keep them from being attacked and forced to doing things they don't want to do.

Yes, I do believe men and women are 100% equal. Yes, I know that they are not 100% the same biologically. However, I don't think those biological differences should translate to them being treated differently in a social system.

For instance, what you said about women being expected to be the head of the household, wife and mother: what if she hates children? What if she doesn't even want to be involved in a household at all? What if she's a lesbian? etc...

And as for what you said about women being naturally weaker than men physically and therefore needing more "protection" - well, for starters, I'm perfectly capable of protecting myself, thank you very much. Furthermore, again, that's a vast overgeneralisation. For instance, the physically strongest person I know, male or female, is a woman. She used to be a security guard.

...

One final question (to both Marluxia and TheBattler): Can you still call yourself a Muslim, if you give up your ideas of male and female social roles?

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

My question is, what exactly is so bad about masturbation? What makes it an act that is warned against?

One problem with Masturbation you may rely on it too much. For example, from what I learnt in Psychology those who masturbate frequently and unable to stop, it becomes an addiction.

It is not forbidden. Just discouraged and not recommended.

Originally Posted by candc32

so masturbation makes you gay?

Ah what?

Originally Posted by Asta

So? Biologically, I differ very much from other women also, not just from men.

You do not understand that I am talking about a basic overview of differences between men and women. I am sure men do not go through menstrual cycle periods. That is the types of differences I am talking about.

Well, you did say men and women are physically different, and therefore should be treated differently. I was using the analogy to illustrate why this is incorrect.

Well it did not illustrate the point you were trying to make. There is physical differences between men and women and science has already proved that.

Then why even divide the genders into different roles at all, with different financial laws pertaining to them? Why not just let people do the jobs they want to or feel inclined to do, as individuals, and treat them the same financially? :/

Those financial laws were set up as precautions for women. Women before Islam was introduced did not have any basic rights at all. Those laws placed for women are there for precautions to protect women and men too.

As I said before if women want to do a job commonly done by men, she needs to prove she can competently can do so like men. Same goes for the other way round, if a man wants to do a job commonly performed by women, he needs to perform the job competently as women would do.

On top of that, they must meet the job description like any other job. For example qualifications etc

I'm sorry, but that is completely without foundation. I could just as easily say that men have a greater emotional strain than women due to the greater amount of testosterone in their bodies, which leads to aggression and violent impulses that they may find difficult to control. :/

Yes but when a woman goes through menstrual cycle periods and changes in the body, she must be stressful condition. Islam placed laws to reduce this amount of stress.

I am not saying men are not stressed out. I am saying Islam has placed laws to help people to cope with stressful conditions that they may go through.

Okay, so you've pretty much construed that women aren't as capable as men because they have periods. And you still can't see how that's sexist?

Not just based on their periods. It was just an example to use that how Islam tries to help women.

You just think Islam tried to treat women differently in a negative way when it really does not.

You still haven't pointed out what Islam says that is sexist?

Still, even though she did apparently accept the marriage, there is absolutely no way a six-year old is capable of consenting to sex and marriage like an adult, no matter how intelligent she is.

She moved to the Prophets Muhammad's (PBUH) house at the age of 9. She got married to the age of six but moved to live with him at the age of nine.

So basically she did not consent to sex at the age of six since she did not move to his house until the age of nine.

I think I must have mentioned.........

Intelligence =/= maturity. And even though back then, people had shorter life spans, that doesn't mean that they matured correspondingly faster, it just means that they didn't have good living conditions.

No one lived in good living conditions 1400 years ago. Lack of knoweldge of medicine and germs than to todays standards.

As times progresses people change which you fail to understood that. 1400 years ago children were considered as adults and they did matured faster.

Also, Aisha was treasured as a bride as much for her virginity as for her intelligence, which I frankly find sickening.

Think what you want. The marriage was for good intentions and the outcome was Aisha became a strong political leader for women.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) treated her with utmost respect. He defended her when false allegations were made against her.

Prophet Muhammad himself was a good person. He was known for his honestly and kindness, otherwise Allah would not have chosen him to become a prophet. He was the one who granted women their rights.

He clearly had no ill intentions. Your closed minded and will not accept anything of all the positive outcomes of this marriage.

Well, according to what you've said about Islamic law, it's not sexist if a man receives more inheritance than women, as long as women receive a larger dowry. However, I'd like to point out that the former pertains to a man as an individual, whereas the latter pertains only to a woman as a wife.

*sighs* you do know how inheritance work right? It is up to the person who makes a will of inheritance to deicide who gets what, unless if that person dies intestate.

The system of dowry was introduced as a safety net for women. Let us say the wife did not inherit anything because no one wants to giver her anything. She would still have the dowry and other financial resources provided by her husband.

In other words, if a man doesn't get married, he'll still get the inheritance. However, the woman's dowry is solely dependent on her getting married, so technically she has far less financial rights as an individual, rather than part of a married couple. What if she never marries?

Pay attention to the other comments that I have made.

If women never get married, firstly her family has to support her with all the financial resources that usually the husband would provide. Secondly, even if the women do not get married, she will get a share of the inheritance as they normally do. It will divide equally as they normally would.

That's all well and good. However, from a lot of things you yourself have said, I'd say that they probably achieved those high ranking positions in spite of Islam, not because of it. Also, women can achieve high ranking positions outside of Islam.

Ah what is the highest rank that you can achieve? Some of the women I mentioned were leaders of a country.

Name some positions that would can achieve higher outside Islam.

Yep, they certainly do still face a lot of problems.

That doesn't mean we should just give up, however.

It's far, far better to try and fight against discrimination than just resignedly subscribe to a system that basically forces women to adopt the role of wife and mother, even if you think the glass ceiling effect is removed in the process (which it isn't, really).

Since when Islam forces a women to take the role of wife and mother? Did you forget so quickly Islam does not allow force marriages like I clearly mentioned.

Allegations you are making are based upon nothing and come from what the Western Media has reported.

I never said not to fight aganist discrimination.

Yes, I do believe men and women are 100% equal. Yes, I know that they are not 100% the same biologically. However, I don't think those biological differences should translate to them being treated differently in a social system.

You sure about that? Lets say a women gets pregant and has a child. She is expected next day to go to work? Could she possibily do that? No she can't, so that is why we have matenrity leave.

A man may get married to a women who recently had a child but may have to go to work, unless if he applied for patenrity leave which is two weeks long.

The UK law system treats women differently based on the biological factors. This does not just apply to men and women. It goes for those who are physically or mentally disable.

For instance, what you said about women being expected to be the head of the household, wife and mother: what if she hates children? What if she doesn't even want to be involved in a household at all? What if she's a lesbian? etc...

She does not need to get married. Common sense really. Islam does not force women to get married. Let us say she does get married, she can get a divorce if she really hates being involved in a household.

Islam encourages people to get married. You maybe expected to get married, but if you refuse to do so is not much of a big deal.

I know many Muslim girls that do not want to get married and their parents are finding with it. I know my experience may be limited but it is just an example that Muslim girls and boys do not need to get married.

And as for what you said about women being naturally weaker than men physically and therefore needing more "protection" - well, for starters, I'm perfectly capable of protecting myself, thank you very much. Furthermore, again, that's a vast overgeneralisation. For instance, the physically strongest person I know, male or female, is a woman. She used to be a security guard.

These protections are placed to stop men for what they have been doing to women. Women were raped, abused and even killed. These protections placed prevent them from taking place.

Tell me how many female security guards out there than compared to men? If a women is able to take care of her that is fine. Generally women unless if they go to the gym or learn martial arts, they could be less physically stronger than men could. Of course their are men who are not as strong as women (some women are probably born like that genetic), BUT Islam talks about precautions for women who are not able to defend themselves.

Tell me this, what is so wrong with taking precautions. Islam does not force anyone to conform to them.

EDIT:

Overall Islam placed precuations for both men and women to help them out in the situation they are in. You are not forced to take heed to them.

I will answer your two remaining questions later. I apologise about that, I will try to answer your remaining questions as soon as possible.

Originally Posted by TheBattler

Uh, I don't know what differing interpretations on alcohol you've seen, but it's universally seen that alcohol is completely bad. I think I know what you're talking about, though...

There are three verses in the Qur'an about alcohol.

1) Coming to a prayers drunk is a sin.
2) Drinking alcohol is bad.
3) You are advised to not drink alcohol.

In all, they point to not drinking alcohol. That wasn't so hard, was it?

Make of this what you will:

Originally Posted by Extracts from a conversation with Andi in IRC one time

For example, the prohibition in islam against drinking largely coincides with the first mainstream establishment of alcohol distillation and the first production of what is now labeled as "liquor"

Distilled liquor was produced in arab countries in the 300s AD, a few hundred years before the koran was written

Before that, the only alcohol any area had was the usual fermented-stuffs that they drank for safety reasons instead of pure water (which was more likely to kill you in an age before large-scale sewer and water refining systems)

Pretty much everyone drank beer constantly up until 150 years ago

Except for the muslim countries, where they completely over-interpreted a part of the koran and read it to mean that you're never allowed to touch alcohol ever

Because pure ethanol (something that got you drunk and rowdy and caused you to flip your **** regularly) was something completely new at the time.

And as such, people regularly abused it and would end up killing themselves/others quite easily after going over their limits with two drinks that, before, wouldn't get you even remotely buzzed.

Which, as with any new technology, was something that people completely overreacted to.

And islam, at the time being a new religion and one with a way of way over-interpreting the works of a guy who claims 100% complete authority from god, took "don't drink too much - it can **** you up" and turned it into "never drink ever because everyone will die if you do"

Considering that muslims heaven is filled with rivers of wine, it's highly unlikely that the original intention of sura 2:219 had anything to do with complete prohibition, as it's interpreted today

They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." <-- being sura 2:219

A bad translation, their word for "wine" here is "strong drink" in most other versions

That being liquor

Like pointing out the alternative koran suras that people have discovered recently. :3

Since the entire authority of the koran is based on the idea that it's the one of the three judeo-christo-muslim books that has never been corrupted with time.

So yeah.

Originally Posted by Marluxia

You do not understand that I am talking about a basic overview of differences between men and women. I am sure men do not go through menstrual cycle periods. That is the types of differences I am talking about.

Well it did not illustrate the point you were trying to make. There is physical differences between men and women and science has already proved that.

And I re-iterate: so what? Does having a menstrual cycle render a woman incapable of living an independent life or managing her own finances?

Those financial laws were set up as precautions for women. Women before Islam was introduced did not have any basic rights at all. Those laws placed for women are there for precautions to protect women and men too.

Okay. But women do have all of those basic rights now, outside Islam. So why keep those old financial laws, when women are perfectly capable of earning their own money and providing for themselves?

Yes but when a woman goes through menstrual cycle periods and changes in the body, she must be stressful condition. Islam placed laws to reduce this amount of stress.

I am not saying men are not stressed out. I am saying Islam has placed laws to help people to cope with stressful conditions that they may go through.

How, exactly?

You still haven't pointed out what Islam says that is sexist?

You still haven't answered my questions about how women are treated in Saudi Arabia.

She moved to the Prophets Muhammad's (PBUH) house at the age of 9. She got married to the age of six but moved to live with him at the age of nine.

So basically she did not consent to sex at the age of six since she did not move to his house until the age of nine.

I think I must have mentioned.........

Yeah, because a nine year old is so much closer to being an adult than a six-year old.

In any case, she still "consented" to the marriage at age six.

As times progresses people change which you fail to understood that. 1400 years ago children were considered as adults and they did matured faster.

And you fail to understand that at six years old, the human brain is simply not sufficiently developed enough to be able to make those kinds of decisions.

Think what you want. The marriage was for good intentions and the outcome was Aisha became a strong political leader for women.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) treated her with utmost respect. He defended her when false allegations were made against her.

Prophet Muhammad himself was a good person. He was known for his honestly and kindness, otherwise Allah would not have chosen him to become a prophet. He was the one who granted women their rights.

He clearly had no ill intentions. Your closed minded and will not accept anything of all the positive outcomes of this marriage.

So sorry, how very close minded of me for not jumping for joy at the thought of a six year old being married off to a much older man.

*sighs* you do know how inheritance work right? It is up to the person who makes a will of inheritance to deicide who gets what, unless if that person dies intestate.

The system of dowry was introduced as a safety net for women. Let us say the wife did not inherit anything because no one wants to giver her anything. She would still have the dowry and other financial resources provided by her husband.

Pay attention to the other comments that I have made.

If women never get married, firstly her family has to support her with all the financial resources that usually the husband would provide. Secondly, even if the women do not get married, she will get a share of the inheritance as they normally do. It will divide equally as they normally would.

Again with that dependence! If not on the husband, then on the family. Why do women even have to be dependent on anyone at all? I do realize that 1400 years ago, women had no independence, but times have changed, yet in some countries Islamic law doesn't seem to recognise this at all.

Ah what is the highest rank that you can achieve? Some of the women I mentioned were leaders of a country.

Name some positions that would can achieve higher outside Islam.

Well, currently the President of Chile is female (Michelle Bachelet Jeria), as is the President of Argentina (Cristina E. Fernandez de Kirchner) and the President of India (Prathiba Patil).

Also, Yuliya Tymoshenko is Prime Minister of Ukraine, Zinaida Grecianii is Prime Minister of Moldova, Michèle Pierre-Louis is the Prime Minister of Haiti, and Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir is the Prime Minister of Iceland

All of them are leaders of a country.

Since when Islam forces a women to take the role of wife and mother? Did you forget so quickly Islam does not allow force marriages like I clearly mentioned.

You seem to think that Islamic law widely grants women the same freedom as men, marriage included.

*cough*Saudi Arabia*cough*

http://www.geocities.com/realitywithbite/saudiwomen.htm
Marriage is another example of sex discrimination in Islamic law. The shari'a regulations of marriage widely grant males the power against females. It has strange marriage roles which have been criticized by Western human rights activists and organizations. In Saudi Arabia a man can have up to four wives, yet, women can have only one husband. It is worth mentioning that, Saudi males can marry other religious believers' females such as Christians or Jews, while Saudi females can only marry Muslims. The reason for this according to Shari'a law is that wives usually follow their husbands' religion and also it is a way to spread Islam among people, on the other hand, if a Muslim female gets married to a non-Muslim male, she might follow her husband's religion. In addition, females do not have the ability to proceed the contract of marriage by themselves. There must be a guardian male to sign up the contract. Even though in some Islamic countries such as Egypt women can marry without having guardians to proceed the contract. It is interesting to note that Saudi women cannot choose their husbands by themselves since they are separated from public life due to the social roles. Al-Khateeb reported that "The bride is usually informed of a suitable groom as seem from her guardian's point of view...Thus many Saudi women go along with their guardians' decision because men have more access to public life, opportunities to collect information about a potential groom..." (177). Furthermore, the right of divorce is only granted for males. They can simply break up the marriage by saying the divorce word which is 'I divorce you' three times. Still, females can not divorce the husbands easily. "Women must demonstrate legally specified grounds for divorce, but men may divorce without giving cause" ("Saudi Arabia Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1998" 13).

And while I'm on the subject of Saudi Arabia:

Wikipedia: Women in Saudi Arabia:
Implementation of a woman resolution supporting expanded employment opportunities for women met resistance from within the labor ministry,[9] from the religious police,[10] and from the male citizenry.[11] These institutions and individuals generally claim that according to Sharia, a woman's place is in the home caring for her husband and family. It is a country where culture and religion make women live mostly restricted segregated lives. There is also segregation inside their own homes as some rooms have separate entrances for men and women. [12]

However women are not banned from employment, they are disallowed to work in a mixed sex workplace.[13] The permission for a woman to go out of her house for work, is subject to other conditions, some of them are:

1. The woman should need to work in order to acquire money she needs.
2. The work should be in a place that is only for women, and there should be no interaction with non-mahram men, such as if she works in teaching girls, whether in administration or technical support.
3. The work should be suited to the woman's body physique and mentality.
4. That should not lead to her neglecting her household duties.
5. Her work should not lead to her travelling without a close male relative.
6. Women are allowed to work with their husbands' permission only.[14] [15][16][17]

It is not considered permissible for women to be appointed as judges.[18]Positions of high public office is also reserved for men. [19]

Allegations you are making are based upon nothing and come from what the Western Media has reported.

Actually, no they don't. They also come from the attitude of a certain family member of mine towards women, who is a Muslim.

You sure about that? Lets say a women gets pregant and has a child. She is expected next day to go to work? Could she possibily do that? No she can't, so that is why we have matenrity leave.

A man may get married to a women who recently had a child but may have to go to work, unless if he applied for patenrity leave which is two weeks long.

The UK law system treats women differently based on the biological factors. This does not just apply to men and women. It goes for those who are physically or mentally disable.

Technically, that's treating new mothers differently, not women in general.

These protections are placed to stop men for what they have been doing to women. Women were raped, abused and even killed. These protections placed prevent them from taking place.

Tell me how many female security guards out there than compared to men? If a women is able to take care of her that is fine. Generally women unless if they go to the gym or learn martial arts, they could be less physically stronger than men could. Of course their are men who are not as strong as women, BUT Islam talks about precautions for women who are not able to defend themselves.

Tell me this, what is so wrong with taking precautions. Islam does not force anyone to conform to them.

I personally find them pretty patronizing and condescending.

Originally Posted by Asta

And I re-iterate: so what? Does having a menstrual cycle render a woman incapable of living an independent life or managing her own finances?

You must have a poor memory. Did I not already state that women could get a job? She can manage her money if she wants to.

Many Muslim women live independent life. They do not have to get married.

Okay. But women do have all of those basic rights now, outside Islam. So why keep those old financial laws, when women are perfectly capable of earning their own money and providing for themselves?

Those old financial laws are still in use and have proven to be useful.

Women in Islam can get employment. They can independent.

Therefore, I do not see the problem here.

How, exactly?

For example, when a woman gets a divorce, all the legal complications are put to aside when she is going through menstrual cycle period.

Keep in mind that is just one example. Different situations, Islam advises you to deal with them differently.

You still haven't answered my questions about how women are treated in Saudi Arabia.

I told you I was going to answer that later. Saudi Arabia are filled with corrupt leaders anyway and do not even bother to follow the principles of Islam.

We are discussing about the principles about Islam.

Yeah, because a nine year old is so much closer to being an adult than a six-year old.

At the age of nine, she was considered an adult based on her physical features.

In any case, she still "consented" to the marriage at age six.

What is the point continuing this discussion if you already made up your mind about what happened, even when I already presented to you what the Quran already says. I said she had to consent to the marriage. She had a choice and she accepted it.

You do not believe she consented to the marriage and that is fine.

And you fail to understand that at six years old, the human brain is simply not sufficiently developed enough to be able to make those kinds of decisions.

You fail to understand that children at that time thought differently than kids today’s standards.

So sorry, how very close minded of me for not jumping for joy at the thought of a six year old being married off to a much older man.

Don't blame you. Your lack of education about Islam just clearly demonstrates how quick you jump to false conclusions.

Again with that dependence! If not on the husband, then on the family. Why do women even have to be dependent on anyone at all? I do realize that 1400 years ago, women had no independence, but times have changed, yet in some countries Islamic law doesn't seem to recognise this at all.

You fail to recognise that Muslim women are independent. Those Islamic countries are filled with corrupt leaders anyway.

The family/husband can support their daughter/wife if they want to. Whether the women accepts that support is optional.

Western countries are not perfect either last time I checked. Shall I go in detail?

Well, currently the President of Chile is female (Michelle Bachelet Jeria), as is the President of Argentina (Cristina E. Fernandez de Kirchner) and the President of India (Prathiba Patil).

Also, Yuliya Tymoshenko is Prime Minister of Ukraine, Zinaida Grecianii is Prime Minister of Moldova, Michèle Pierre-Louis is the Prime Minister of Haiti, and Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir is the Prime Minister of Iceland

All of them are leaders of a country.

And? Women in Islam were leaders of a country too.

You seem to think that Islamic law widely grants women the same freedom as men, marriage included.

I do not think that. I know that. I studied the Quran and live in a Muslim society where women and men are treated equally.

Do not get me wrong, not all men and women are treated equally. I do understand that. Most of this has to do with culture, not religion.

*cough*Saudi Arabia*cough*

Let us try to stick to the discussion of Islam. Saudi Arabia is clearly a corrupt country. Saudi Arabia is a country and Islam is a religion. Completely different things.

Yes, Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country, though there is too much corruption to begin with.

If you have issues with Saudi Arabia, then I suggest you should contact your issues with them.
Maybe they will clarify things for you. XD

And while I'm on the subject of Saudi Arabia:

Actually, no they don't. They also come from the attitude of a certain family member of mine towards women, who is a Muslim.

Yes, the media highlights all the negative things about Islam. Its get more publicity.

Those negatives regarding about women, does not mean all Muslim women are treated that way. Your simply generalising one view.

Technically, that's treating new mothers differently, not women in general.

Well women in general, they can live a life of independence.

Also, what do you have to say about Saudi Arabia, in which women can't even drive nor leave their house without the presence of their male relatives?

Saudi Arabia made it own laws to why women cannot drive. You should talk to them if you are so unhappy about it.

Islam is just suggests a man should leave the house with a women. It does not say women cannot leave on her own.

One final question (to both Marluxia and TheBattler): Can you still call yourself a Muslim, if you give up your ideas of male and female social roles?

Ah?

What male and female social roles? They both have the same rights. Both can work etc

Even men are told to contribute to household work, by following the example of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) . The Prophet encouraged symmetrical roles.

So there is no two split system roles for male and females.

Originally Posted by Marluxia

One problem with Masturbation you may rely on it too much. For example, from what I learnt in Psychology those who masturbate frequently and unable to stop, it becomes an addiction.

It is not forbidden. Just discouraged and not recommended.

What would one rely on masturbation for? Why is being addicted to masturbation bad?

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

What would one rely on masturbation for? Why is being addicted to masturbation bad?

I believe people may rely on it because they are unable to control their sexual cravings or stress. I am not sure myself, though that is the general overview of it I think.

Well is it a good thing to be addicted to masturbation?

I assume sexual thoughts are associated with masturbation. If one masturbates on a daily basis and is unable to control themselves, there could be a possibility they are unable to control their sexual thoughts. If someone is not able to control their sexual thoughts, it can have an impact on the individual life and may interfere with their other daily activities. That is one reason why masturbation is seen in a negative light.

While masturbation I heard is good for stress, some may rely on it too much and do not attempt to stop the cause of that stress. It can be just seen as an avoiding strategy and not to deal with your daily problems that cause your stress in the first place.

Hope this answered the question.

Originally Posted by Marluxia

I believe people may rely on it because they are unable to control their sexual cravings or stress. I am not sure myself, though that is the general overview of it I think.

Well is it a good thing to be addicted to masturbation?

People who are unable to control their sexual cravings generally become rapists or pedophiles. I can assure you that being addicted to masturbation will not do that to you unless you are unstable.

What is wrong with being addicted to something with no downside?(Unless your are wanking your skin away.)

I assume sexual thoughts are associated with masturbation. If one masturbates on a daily basis and is unable to control themselves, there could be a possibility they are unable to control their sexual thoughts. If someone is not able to control their sexual thoughts, it can have an impact on the individual life and may interfere with their other daily activities. That is one reason why masturbation is seen in a negative light.

Is their any reason why self pleasure should not be part of your daily life?

While masturbation I heard is good for stress, some may rely on it too much and do not attempt to stop the cause of that stress. It can be just seen as an avoiding strategy and not to deal with your daily problems that cause your stress in the first place.

It only relives stress whilst you do it, afterwards the stress comes back, (for me at least)it is a temporary distrcaction which is why I personally don't feel that it is that good at relieving stress. But like I said, it really has no down side, as opposed to drinking problems away, or smoking them away.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

People who are unable to control their sexual cravings generally become rapists or pedophiles. I can assure you that being addicted to masturbation will not do that to you unless you are unstable.

What is wrong with being addicted to something with no downside?(Unless your are wanking your skin away.)

Well Islam encourages Muslims to take self-control. The only downside I can see that you loose self-control. There is a risk of individuals not being able to control themselves.

Is their any reason why self pleasure should not be part of your daily life?

Well it depends on the individual itself. If someone continues to masturbate and is, unable to control themselves, mentally it will cause future problems such as poor concentration levels.

Masturbation or any other sexual activities cannot take place the month of Ramadan. The month where Muslims fast. Personally to a Muslim, that is one of the reasons why Masturbation is discouraged, because it may interfere with their daily activates such as fasting. You cannot have any sexual thoughts during prayer as well.

I know it is not applicable to non-believers but for Muslims it is. That is why it is discourged.

Muslims are encouraged to control their sexual urgues because those urges may start to dwell in the individual mind.

It only relives stress whilst you do it, afterwards the stress comes back, (for me at least)it is a temporary distrcaction which is why I personally don't feel that it is that good at relieving stress. But like I said, it really has no down side, as opposed to drinking problems away, or smoking them away.

Well for some individuals who can be used too often and become an avoiding strategy to cope with their problems. I am not saying it is the same for everyone, but for some people it can be.

EDIT:

Plus Sunni sect of Islam allows masturbation but only when an individual is really unable to control their sexual urges.

Originally Posted by Marluxia

Well Islam encourages Muslims to take self-control. The only downside I can see that you loose self-control. There is a risk of individuals not being able to control themselves.

So then because some people cannot control it, why would you ban/restrict it's use it from everyone?

Well it depends on the individual itself. If someone continues to masturbate and is, unable to control themselves, mentally it will cause future problems such as poor concentration levels.

Right, and if these were the majority of people I would agree with you.

I know it is not applicable to non-believers but for Muslims it is. That is why it is discouraged.

So it is because it interferes with prayer? Is there anyway to guarantee that a man doesn't have sexual thoughts going through his head at the time of prayer? Is sex between husband and wife also limited?

Muslims are encouraged to control their sexual urgues because those urges may start to dwell in the individual mind.

I would think that they would dwell there forever not mattering upon what you do, perhaps masturbation and sex would foster the growth of those, but they would still be there.

Well for some individuals who can be used too often and become an avoiding strategy to cope with their problems. I am not saying it is the same for everyone, but for some people it can be.

I am aware of this, but I don't think it would be right to restrict everyone based on a problem of the minority. Thats like a group of ******* teenagers tear up a public pool, the age limit is raised to 21, thats not fair to the good kids right?

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

So then because some people cannot control it, why would you ban/restrict it's use it from everyone?

To prevent a greater sin from occurring. As you clearly stated, constant sexual urges may lead someone raping another individual.

Masturbation may be used as an alternative to prevent that greater sin from occurring.

Right, and if these were the majority of people I would agree with you.

How do you know that? Last time I checked masturbation is not something which people openly talk about. It is a possibility of poorer concentrations may occur if someone is unable to control their sexual urges and always has to resort to masturbation.

So it is because it interferes with prayer? Is there anyway to guarantee that a man doesn't have sexual thoughts going through his head at the time of prayer?

You cannot guarantee that, though you are supposed to try. If you are trying to stop these sexual thoughts going through the head, then God will recognise that.

Is sex between husband and wife also limited?

Nope. As long as they are married its fine.

I would think that they would dwell there forever not mattering upon what you do, perhaps masturbation and sex would foster the growth of those, but they would still be there.

Your correct, those thoughts remain there forever. Just like when humans get hungry. XD

We are just encouraging Muslims to control their sexual urges, like in general we encourage people to control how much they eat.

I am aware of this, but I don't think it would be right to restrict everyone based on a problem of the minority. Thats like a group of ******* teenagers tear up a public pool, the age limit is raised to 21, thats not fair to the good kids right?

How do you know this is a problem is of a minority? Not many people talk about their sexual appetite so openly.

I said it is a possibility. People may not be aware of it, that they are actually avoiding their problems through use of masturbation.

Originally Posted by Marluxia

To prevent a greater sin from occurring. As you clearly stated, constant sexual urges may lead someone raping another individual.

I said people with no sexual control would rape people, as far as statistics go, this is not the case.

How do you know that? Last time I checked masturbation is not something which people openly talk about. It is a possibility of poorer concentrations may occur if someone is unable to control their sexual urges and always has to resort to masturbation.

Your right I can't prove that(with what I know at this point in time), but neither can you, but based off of my personal experience, as limited as that may be, it doesn't interfere with concentration.

You cannot guarantee that, though you are supposed to try. If you are trying to stop these sexual thoughts going through the head, then God will recognise that.

So then if a man can have sex with his wife whenever he pleases without religious limitation don't you think his mind will be on sex more more than someone who simply masturbates?

We are just encouraging Muslims to control their sexual urges, like in general we encourage people to control how much they eat.

That is fair, however, I think is should both be encouraged as well as encouraging people to practice self control.

How do you know this is a problem is of a minority? Not many people talk about their sexual appetite so openly.

Because there are larger things that will make people unfocused, I doubt that the majority of unfocused people are unfocused because they want to wank.

I said it is a possibility. People may not be aware of it, that they are actually avoiding their problems through use of masturbation.

I am sure some people do that.