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  #81 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-14-2009, 07:18 PM
B-Rock the Islamic Shock B-Rock the Islamic Shock is a male United States B-Rock the Islamic Shock is offline
OBAMACARE IS INVINCIBLE
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Re: Free Country. Is it real?

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Originally Posted by Evilsbane View Post
And what qualifications did he have when he became Senator? Everyone starts somewhere.
He was an Illinois State Senator, and before that he was a professor of Constitutional Law.

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Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
Today's gamefaq's poll has over 70,000. That's more than 70,000 votes in less than 24 hours. The issue today isn't the people, it's the structure. If there were an easily accessed web portal in which anyone could easily get access to proposed legislation, and written debate regarding said legislation, then we wouldn't have the issues you describe.

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Originally Posted by John View Post
Won't help. You'll still need to verify support for every single vote they cast, otherwise fraud would run rampant.

I'd imagine you'd have to send out mass phone-calls and e-mails to every person who a representative claims and they'd all have to answer that they support them or their vote wouldn't count.

What a bureaucratic nightmare that would be...
Last Edited by B-Rock the Islamic Shock; 05-14-2009 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #82 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-15-2009, 01:35 PM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt.
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Re: Free Country. Is it real?

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Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
I'm not disputing this. It is still a government. It's a vastly different one, however. To claim that there is no difference between a socialist representative democracy or direct democracy and today's capitalist democratic republic is to claim there is no difference between the popular governments of today and the empires of a few centuries ago.
Well we have representative democracy but not in the socialist sense I suppose. I wouldn't go as far as a Marxist and say that everything is permeated by the capitalist bourgeoisie but it wouldn't be entirely incorrect to assert such either.

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Yes. When the bourgeoisie revolted against the feudalistic empires, and established modern capitalist states. I see the socialist revolution as being fairly similar.
That's not a revolution in the normal sense of the world but I suppose it's a possibility. I doubt the "socialist revolution" will be an ultimate final revolution though, we could just as easily revert to the old capitalist way or even move to something entirely unprecedented.

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We've been conditioned away from it. Just as someone who had never been allowed to walk would need to be conditioned, physically, the the point of being physically 'normal', we must be conditioned back to our natural state, as we have been so engrossed in a system which encourages selfishness.
But as I was saying, if it's a biological inherent, it should be there anyway. Like having legs, or blood, or a genetic condition.


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They're both fiction. :/

Yes, and they're both still fiction. Neither are really more valid than the other.

Just because I wrote it down, and just because it's science fiction, does not make it true.

Now, all three stories are allegories, however, the comments of the authors are as valid as the a comments made by anyone in this thread.
I never said "Aldous Huxley said it so it must be true", I was saying that unless/even if you add in a fictional element conditioning humans to that kind of extent wouldn't really be possible in the foreseeable future, and using a book where such was done and didn't work to illustrate (not to validate) my point.

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It's a misnomer to say that communism is utopic. It's simply better. There are still issues, work still has to be done. Decisions still have to be made.
Well that's the point, but in Marx's vision no such thing would really be done if I remember correctly and am not mistaken. He envisioned it as a eutopia even though it isn't (and I would dispute that it isn't better but that is a point of contention).

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Today we have little motivation to be informed, as we have little power. However, when the proletariat has control via a democracy the proletariat will also be more informed about the world around them.
Today anyone who tries to be informed is fed bull**** from the informers. Every single media outlet has some form of vested interest, which is why you have to read all of them, or go on the BBC website. As someone pointed out somewhere, the primary reason most governments hate the BBC even though the BBC is state-funded is because they refuse to be a mouthpiece for the government or a state channel, and take some incredibly stupid measures to remain impartial. But most people don't do that, instead preferring to read the Daily Star for their daily dose of tits and complaints about immigrants.

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Your argument is just as valid as a counter argument against the democratic republics we have now. The prolitariat are able to choose their own leaders- are we in a worse position than when they weren't? Are we not more informed now that we have little power than when we had no power?
What I was saying is that I'd rather democracy to authoritarianism (unless of course the authoritarian is me). I'd rather the ignorant masses choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich to having to take the turd sandwich and having no safeguards against what that turd sandwich might do.

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These are the majority where you are?
These papers are British papers. Daily Mail is horribly right (read by the most "British" of us because they are the voice of Middle-England who stand for everything good and just about God's Green England but forget about the filthy celts in Wales and Scotland), the Guardian is horribly left (read only by students who like to think they're intelligent and rebellious, environmentalists, hippies, the anti-establishment lot), and tabloids are tabloids. Tabloids are probably the most popular. I am the only person I know who reads The Times if I ever choose to buy a paper at all (while middle-right, the most reliable paper), and my mate reads pretty much every website's news including the BBC so I get a lot of my news when I go into his room too. If I want an intelligent conversation, I go to him, or I talk to myself, because goodness knows I'm not going to get it from anyone in this country. Especially anyone in my village who, when seeing a map of the world, said "oh so America's not that far from Wales then."
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  #83 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-16-2009, 07:03 AM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
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Re: Free Country. Is it real?

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Originally Posted by Evilsbane View Post
I'm sure they feel the same about you on conversations about things like car engines or farming, or something. Just because they have different interests than you doesn't make them unintelligent.

Though perhaps you were using hyperbole?
My mother actually said that. My dad does know his stuff about cars and fishing but surely he doesn't expect to be able to make reasonable conversation about the internal workings of a car unless he's talking to a fellow mechanic. I don't expect the people around me to know about law or videogames or anything but when it comes to the basics like current affairs I expect people not to rather ignorantly say "****ing immigrants, coming over here, taking our houses and jobs and money" and in the same breath say "oh those poor ghurkas not being allowed to come over here and take our houses and jobs and money".
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  #84 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-17-2009, 01:33 AM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
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Re: Free Country. Is it real?

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Originally Posted by Evilsbane View Post
Aha. Enlightening. Well, to be fair, the average person's opinion will (I imagine) be that Gurkhas have earned entry by contributing towards the wellbeing of the British Empire, whereas the typical immigrant hasn't. Which is reasonable enough - at least not as ridiculous as you make it seem.
It isn't ridiculous to allow them in, it's ridiculous that they complain about immigrants who want to work here to contribute to the wellbeing of the British empire from within, yet the Ghurkas haven't actually done anything more than be members of an army that happens to belong to Britain. The same privileges wouldn't be lended to members of the Australian or Canadian armies, they'd just be fookin' immigrants like the Polish. Ghurkas just want to live in the country they apparently "love so much", because clearly anyone who's in the army just plain loves his country and isn't doing it because it's a job, oh no, and the Polish who come here only want to leech off the British economy, they can't possibly actually LIKE this country can they? Double standards and hypocrisy from the Tories all round. As per ****ing usual.

If the Ghurkas are allowed here, so are immigrants as long as they don't try to get in here illegally. If the immigrants are not welcome here, neither are the Ghurkas. I see no coherent principle that would allow the Ghurkas to immigrate here but not others.

Quote:
So as the thread doesn't derail entirely, can we agree that the thread has evolved from 'Does a free country exist?' to 'SHOULD a free country exist (are people smart enough to not abuse the freedoms they claim)?
Freedom is the dark dank corner within which Injustice breeds and festers waiting to consume. But unless I'm the one regulating it, I don't trust others to do so.
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Last Edited by Lord Zero; 05-17-2009 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #85 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-17-2009, 09:08 AM
Lord Zero Lord Zero is a male Wales Lord Zero is offline
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Re: Free Country. Is it real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsbane View Post
The important word in my point was the 'already'. Gurkhas have already contributed to British society, and have therefore proven themselves useful before attempting to live there. A Polish immigrant has not, though this is not a judgement on whether he/she WOULD be useful. As I said, the Gurkha, in the mind of the average Joe on the street (I assume), has EARNED their way in.
The thing is, they want to come here to retire, and leech off the taxpayer. If a Polish immigrant tried to come here and then just take benefits without working all day, the average tabloid reader would be up in arms, but just because a Ghurka has been in an army that just so happens to serve Britain (which as far as I'm aware hasn't really been in any major wars for over a hundred years, so all they've done is be in the army, not actually fight for Britain). A Polish immigrant comes here to work, he almost can't legally get in unless he's coming here to work, and yet the average guy is all "****ing Poles, coming over here, taking our jobs", when the Polish will actually be PAYING tax and contributing. Ghurkas will either be doing the same, or if they're coming here to retire, just living off a pension paid by the average Joe. But of course, he doesn't mind that, for reasons of Patriotism (read: for reasons defying logic and highlighting his own hypocrisy).

Quote:
Let's not start talking in soundbytes. 'Justice' and 'Injustice' mean different things to different people, anyway.
Justice is giving each their due, every definition seems to come in line with that. Unless people's "due" is being perfectly free to give others that which is not their due, then Injustice is served by overprotecting Freedom.
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Last Edited by Lord Zero; 05-17-2009 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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