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  #41 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 01:06 AM
Tar Potomi Źëngrīn Tar Potomi Źëngrīn is a male United States Tar Potomi Źëngrīn is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

so a kid bullying an other kid is not and uncontrollable kid? I will offer no other argument.
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  #42 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 01:54 AM
Joe Joe is a male United States Joe is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

If you're selfish enough to kill yourself, then you deserve to die.
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  #43 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 01:56 AM
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Originally Posted by Jοe View Post
If you're selfish enough to kill yourself, then you deserve to die.
I could not disagree more. People who commit suicide are obviously under an incredible amount of emotional duress and are usually clinically depressed, in which case making a rational decision is out of the picture. It has nothing to do with being selfish.
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  #44 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 02:02 AM
Joe Joe is a male United States Joe is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Originally Posted by Asta View Post
I could not disagree more. People who commit suicide are obviously under an incredible amount of emotional duress and are usually clinically depressed, in which case making a rational decision is out of the picture. It has nothing to do with being selfish.
It is a very selfish act if you don't consider the pain your loved ones will go through after your death. And if he couldn't make a rational decision about that, then who knows what could've happened next. Possibly murder.
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  #45 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 02:05 AM
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Originally Posted by Jοe View Post
It is a very selfish act if you don't consider the pain your loved ones will go through after your death. And if he couldn't make a rational decision about that, then who knows what could've happened next. Possibly murder.
But what if someone is so depressed that they are no longer even capable of taking their loved ones into account? Are they still being selfish?
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:22 AM
Joe Joe is a male United States Joe is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Originally Posted by Asta View Post
But what if someone is so depressed that they are no longer even capable of taking their loved ones into account? Are they still being selfish?
I wouldn't want someone that unstable around me. At this point, he is no longer able to function normally in society. He is a potential threat to everyone. I'm sort of happy he did his thing alone... instead of retaining his feelings and exploding in public.

Depression isn't a "thing", it's not a disease, it's a state of mind. He let himself go. I know people who have it far worse than this kid, but they still enjoy everyday of their life and make the best of what they got.

Was he selfish? I don't know. But suicide is a very selfish act.

People are defined by what they do, not who they are.
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  #47 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 02:32 AM
Emperor Mateus Emperor Mateus is a male Emperor Mateus is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

I don't think you can condemn the boy like that, Joe. He was only eleven years old and you don't know how heavily bullied he was. You clearly underestimate the psychological impact that bullying does as well, how it shreds your self-esteem apart and makes you feel that there's nothing anyone can do about it. It affects adults badly enough, but when growing up, I'm not surprised children are commiting suicide rather than continue to endure the torture others put them through.

If you want somebody to blame for the 'selfishness', blame the scum who tormented him and drove him down until his death, as well as the teachers who probably knew what was happening and yet did nothing about it anyway rather than attack the victim again. Good grief, he's dead now and people are still attacking him and blaming him. Hope you feel proud of yourself.
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  #48 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 02:34 AM
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jοe View Post
I wouldn't want someone that unstable around me. At this point, he is no longer able to function normally in society. He is a potential threat to everyone. I'm sort of happy he did his thing alone... instead of retaining his feelings and exploding in public.

Depression isn't a "thing", it's not a disease, it's a state of mind. He let himself go. I know people who have it far worse than this kid, but they still enjoy everyday of their life and make the best of what they got.

Was he selfish? I don't know. But suicide is a very selfish act.

People are defined by what they do, not who they are.
Clinical depression is an illness, not a state of mind. It's not the same as merely having the blues. Why else is there medication for it?

Also, people with depression as a result of victimization should not be viewed as threats, since the scenario in which the person goes on a murderous rampage is highly unlikely - the vast majority of people do not respond to bullying in such a way.

I feel very sorry for this boy. The bullying should have been addressed and stopped, and the child should have received counselling. It was probably very much preventable.
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  #49 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 02:53 AM
AXavierB AXavierB is a male AXavierB is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jοe View Post
Depression isn't a "thing", it's not a disease, it's a state of mind. He let himself go. I know people who have it far worse than this kid, but they still enjoy everyday of their life and make the best of what they got.
That's ignorant. Depression is a mental illness and a disease. Like Asta said, there wouldn't be medication for it if it wasn't.
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  #50 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 03:26 AM
Snow_Storm Snow_Storm is a male United States Snow_Storm is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Can't believe you guys are condoning a suicide. Can't believe you guys are approving the idea of the family and friends of this child hurting for the rest of their lives and the fact that maybe the bullies think it's funny that they drove the child to kill himself.

Thank you, ZU.
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  #51 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 03:41 AM
Emperor Mateus Emperor Mateus is a male Emperor Mateus is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

I don't condone the suicide, I think it's awful that the boy went through with it and think it's awful that his life was wasted and he died so young, but I certainly don't blame him for doing what he did nor do I think it's right to call him 'selfish'. I understand very well that bullying can **** you up massively and can cause enormous psychological distress that can affect the way you think, in that you don't think as rationally and sometimes see suicide as the only way to escape the suffering. Children, in fact, people who are bullied to this extent where they kill themselves rather than continue to face the harrassment is absolutely horrific, and the school should have taken procedures to tackle the bullying scum before allowing the situation and the torture to have gotten so bad. I think it's absolutely dreadful, but I don't blame the boy.

I blame the bullies for driving the kid to his death, their parents for not doing enough to instill right from wrong in their children and teach them how to deal with things appropriately and the teachers for not recognizing such bullying was going on and taking the measures to prevent what could have been an entirely preventable death.

So RIP Carl, I know how you felt. I feel terrible for you and your family. I hope your mom can find a way to help all the kids still suffering in your name.
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  #52 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 04:52 AM
Link the Zora Link the Zora is a male United States Link the Zora is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

The bully's background? Why the crap shoud that matter? Oooooooh, poor bully! His mom was a w***e and his dad's a drug-addict abuser! Let's pity him and absolve him of all of his sins.

I swear, we're too lenient on them. If I had a son who was being picked on by a bully, know what I would do? I would personally humiliate the bully. I would invite the bully to our house, force him to wear a 1950s maid outfit and scrub the house down with a bucket of water and soap, paint, trim, and do yard work. I would refuse to give him water should he ask for it. He'll have to go drink out of a hose. Food? Hard crackers and squished cheese. What would this teach him, you ask? That if he's gonna bully my kid, he's gonna have the metaphorical whip cracking on him.

Let's face it. The school isn't gonna do dickwad about bullying because they're afraid of the parents suing them for all their money for hurting "Precious bully Johnny".

I was a dick when I was little, but I learned that being a dick led to harsh punishment thanks to my parents. Result? I stopped being a dick and turned into a nice, decent human being.

The bully in question? If anything, he's just sorry he didn't get to shoot Carl himself!

Bullys are not human beings. They have no soul, no compassion, no nothing. Blame their background all you want, but I've known people (meself included) who've been through personal hells and rose up to be better people.
Last Edited by Link the Zora; 04-24-2009 at 04:53 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 05:03 AM
Joe Joe is a male United States Joe is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Originally Posted by Pelagias View Post
So RIP Carl, I know how you felt. I feel terrible for you and your family. I hope your mom can find a way to help all the kids still suffering in your name.
Yeah, rest in peace Carl, you did the right thing...
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  #54 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 05:06 AM
The impulsive L The impulsive L is a male Finland The impulsive L is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Yeah, rest in peace Carl, you did the right thing...
No he didn't, suicide should NEVER be an option. There is always hope.
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  #55 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 08:58 AM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jοe View Post
It is a very selfish act if you don't consider the pain your loved ones will go through after your death. And if he couldn't make a rational decision about that, then who knows what could've happened next. Possibly murder.
...Alright, lots of misconceptions here.


First off, suicidally depressed people are not also murderers.

Depression makes you hurt emotionally. In severe cases it makes you want to do anything to just make the pain stop.

However, unless your emotional pain seems to come from another person it's unlikely that you'd decide to try and kill them.

Even if it is the result of bullying the number of times when a clinically depressed person has killed a bully/boss/whatever is enormously less than the number of times that they've just killed themselves.

Depression saps initiative. It erodes all self-confidence and all sense of worth. Usually depressed people come to think that all that they're going through is their own fault. Sure, they might be bullied, but that's because they're terrible people, or brought it on themselves by being too different and not being able to fit in, or whatever.

So, no, just because someone cannot think rationally about ways to improve their situation does not mean that they're also potential murderers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jοe View Post
I wouldn't want someone that unstable around me. At this point, he is no longer able to function normally in society. He is a potential threat to everyone. I'm sort of happy he did his thing alone... instead of retaining his feelings and exploding in public.
Tell me, you ever known a suicidal person? Ever been friends with someone with clinical depression?

About the only way their feelings "explode" is by having them break down crying randomly and having them hide themselves away in their house.

Sure, sometimes someone with depression can kill others, just like a perfectly balanced person can. However, that's almost always if they have another mental disorder (such as schizophrenia) combined with clinical depression.

Quote:
Depression isn't a "thing", it's not a disease, it's a state of mind. He let himself go. I know people who have it far worse than this kid, but they still enjoy everyday of their life and make the best of what they got.
There is a difference between Clinical Depression and feeling "down in the dumps".

Clinical depression is entirely illogical. You could be king of the world, living in a paradise, and still get clinical depression and end up committing suicide.

It's a disease. A mental illness. It's no different from a cancer, save that it preys on your emotions, not your body.

Quote:
Was he selfish? I don't know. But suicide is a very selfish act.

People are defined by what they do, not who they are.
People are also not held accountable for things they do when not themselves.

If I hit you on the head hard enough (and in the right place) you'd lose control over your actions, and would probably end up trying to beat me to death, even if you were normally a pacifist.

Why? Because, ignoring the fact that I assaulted you, if the right part of your brain gets bruised you become incredibly aggressive temporarily.

In Canada it's called "Non-insane automatism", and is a valid legal defence against all crimes.

Depression can be similar, in some ways. It doesn't make you aggressive, but it does remove a large amount of responsibility for your actions.

People who attempt suicide need help, not scorn. They need compassion, not loathing, fear, and hatred.

It's illogical fear like this that makes depression such a stigma, and that makes it so damn hard for someone to actually get help before trying to off themselves. They know that if they go to a psychiatrist or psychologist people will react differently to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow_Storm View Post
Can't believe you guys are condoning a suicide. Can't believe you guys are approving the idea of the family and friends of this child hurting for the rest of their lives and the fact that maybe the bullies think it's funny that they drove the child to kill himself.

Thank you, ZU.
Who is condoning it?

It's always a terrible event when someone kills themself. However, blaming a suicidally depressed person and insisting that they were just being selfish whiners is almost as bad.

You ever been suicidally depressed, S_S?

Quote:
Originally Posted by L176 View Post
No he didn't, suicide should NEVER be an option. There is always hope.
That's the point of depression, it removes hope. All of it. You know, beyond all doubt, that things will never get better.
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  #56 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 09:22 AM
Kitsuné Kitsuné is a male United Kingdom Kitsuné is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Was he physically bullied? Or just verbally? What was the extent?
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Old 04-24-2009, 10:59 AM
Abyss Master Abyss Master is a male Norway Abyss Master is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

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Originally Posted by Snow_Storm View Post
Can't believe you guys are condoning a suicide. Can't believe you guys are approving the idea of the family and friends of this child hurting for the rest of their lives and the fact that maybe the bullies think it's funny that they drove the child to kill himself.

Thank you, ZU.
I'm really not getting the vibe that anyone are condoning the suicide, but pointing the finger at the kid and saying that he was selfish and a coward is stepping way over a fine line.

Anyways:

What the boy did was not the right thing, it was not a good thing, but that it should be put down and condemned in such a way that not only fully disrespects him, but also the fact that he was in a state of disorder. Depressed to the point where he saw no other option. Don't expect someone to get out of that by just deciding that "okay, I don't wanna be a chicken, I'm gonna tell someone about this".

I won't stand by the bullying nor the suicide. I can safely assume that one triggered the other, however, and that action is the one I condemn.
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  #58 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 01:04 PM
Snow_Storm Snow_Storm is a male United States Snow_Storm is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by L176 View Post
No he didn't, suicide should NEVER be an option. There is always hope.
Sarcasm failed you much, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
...Alright, lots of misconceptions here.

Who is condoning it?

It's always a terrible event when someone kills themself. However, blaming a suicidally depressed person and insisting that they were just being selfish whiners is almost as bad.

You ever been suicidally depressed, S_S?
The people who are saying "The kid did the right thing" "It was the only choice he had", etc. And yeah, I'm gonna stand on the fact that they're selfish for killing themselves because they were pick on and couldn't see beyond the bullying.

And no, I never been suicidally depressed. Does that make my statements invalided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abyss Master View Post
I'm really not getting the vibe that anyone are condoning the suicide, but pointing the finger at the kid and saying that he was selfish and a coward is stepping way over a fine line.
So saying "He did the right thing" isn't condoing? Sure. Like I say, do we need another one of these guys:





Doing another of these:




all because some prick picked on them and the politically correct dumb**** teachers ignore the warning signs of the victims and bullies? I fear there will be another one of these in the near future and it all because of thanks to these jackasses:





And all those two are gonna do are either gonna lay dead in a pool of their own blood or say "we should had look at the warning signs".
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  #59 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 01:12 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow_Storm View Post
And yeah, I'm gonna stand on the fact that they're selfish for killing themselves because they were pick on and couldn't see beyond the bullying.

And no, I never been suicidally depressed. Does that make my statements invalided?
It doesn't completely invalidate it, no, but I rather suspect it leads to a complete and utter failure of empathy.

See, again, you can only judge a person's actions, only hold them accountable for them, if they were themselves when they made them.

A suicidally depressed person can't see beyond, say, bullying. Not because they don't want to, or aren't trying to, but because they literally can't.


Quote:
So saying "He did the right thing" isn't condoing? Sure.
No one here has said anything like that that wasn't also being blisteringly sarcastic.

Quote:
Like I say, do we need another one of these guys:

Doing another of these:

all because some prick picked on them and the politically correct dumb**** teachers ignore the warning signs of the victims and bullies? I fear there will be another one of these in the near future and it all because of thanks to these jackasses:

And all those two are gonna do are either gonna lay dead in a pool of their own blood or say "we should had look at the warning signs".
Interestingly enough, the Columbine shootings seem to have had little to do with bullying. There's quite a bit of speculation that the two kids simply had some very bad mental problems.
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  #60 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-24-2009, 01:17 PM
Tar Potomi Źëngrīn Tar Potomi Źëngrīn is a male United States Tar Potomi Źëngrīn is offline
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Re: Eleven year old boy who shot himself

I agree with snow_storm.

I also think the bullies should be charged with man slaughter for causing the suicide, for get just the guilt part, they need to answer for their crimes. Depression or not those kids didn't have to be jackasses.
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