A Canadian immigrant feels alienated by America

It's not just America... it is really hard to move from America to Canada. I have a friend who has been trying to do that for the past 5 years. He's got a working VISA right now and has been working in Canada for the longest time. The only hold-up is his autistic son, but seeing as he's been here s long, him and his wife had another kid who could just sponsor his older brother should they get rejected.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

If people want to praise their country, they are most welcome to do so.

There is a difference between praising their own country and praying to God thanks that they don't live anywhere else inferior(like Canada)

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

There are a lot of immigrants, and the immigrants they refer to are most likely illegal Mexican immigrants, which there are quite a bit of. It is a generalization.

I assure you, they do not specify. Why single out Mexicans and not Canadians too? There might be less of us but the Mexicans don't cause any problems that the Canadians wouldn't cause also. Newcomers from both nations come "stealing" jobs from "real" Americans.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

We elected Obama didn't we?

Obama is more right-wing than the "Conservative" party of Canada.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

Again, unless they were openly mocking you, those are subjective. If they are legitimate questions then why be offended? Because one lacks common sense? Then you must be offended everywhere you go.

Actually it may surprise you to know that lack of knowledge of the rest of the world is a pretty distinctly American thing. I never got asked such questions on my visits to Europe or Australia. A few Americans actually didn't believe me when I told them the North Pole was in Canada and that Canada has a Queen instead of a president.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

If Canadians want to walk around and say we are better than you then go ahead, but everyone needs to put their money where there mouth is.

We aren't quite that arrogant or even as patriotic. "Canada day" compared to the 4th of July is like comparing a kid's birthday party to Mardi gras. Which is funny because Canadians seem to trust their own government more than Americans do. Americans are so wary of leaving health care in the hands of "The Government" and Canadians don't even bat an eye at it, the government is a democracy so government control means control by Canadians.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

There is a difference between praising their own country and praying to God thanks that they don't live anywhere else inferior(like Canada)

But that isn't what you said. And would you rather go live in the Sudan or Ethiopia? They are thankful to have had the opportunity to lives in a country such as America.

I assure you, they do not specify. Why single out Mexicans and not Canadians too? There might be less of us but the Mexicans don't cause any problems that the Canadians wouldn't cause also. Newcomers from both nations come "stealing" jobs from "real" Americans.

Well I don't know what is the national language up there, but you guys speak English, being able to understand said immigrant is always a big plus.

Obama is more right-wing than the "Conservative" party of Canada.

Eww.

Actually it may surprise you to know that lack of knowledge of the rest of the world is a pretty distinctly American thing. I never got asked such questions on my visits to Europe or Australia. A few Americans actually didn't believe me when I told them the North Pole was in Canada and that Canada has a Queen instead of a president.

Thats sad.

We aren't quite that arrogant or even as patriotic. "Canada day" compared to the 4th of July is like comparing a kid's birthday party to Mardi gras. Which is funny because Canadians seem to trust their own government more than Americans do. Americans are so wary of leaving health care in the hands of "The Government" and Canadians don't even bat an eye at it, the government is a democracy so government control means control by Canadians.

Well thats because we don't want a big government, the job of the government is to enforce laws, serve the people and defend the nation. Thats why we don't trust the government because the people in it are usual greedy *******s who care nothing for anyone, but only for themselves. It's a sad reality.

Originally Posted by Joy-Rider

It's not just America... it is really hard to move from America to Canada. I have a friend who has been trying to do that for the past 5 years. He's got a working VISA right now and has been working in Canada for the longest time. The only hold-up is his autistic son, but seeing as he's been here s long, him and his wife had another kid who could just sponsor his older brother should they get rejected.

Thats interesting to me. Because from what I have researched it looks super easy to immigrate to Canada. At least as someone's fiancee. It only takes 4 weeks processing time and you don't even have to be engaged.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

But that isn't what you said. And would you rather go live in the Sudan or Ethiopia? They are thankful to have had the opportunity to lives in a country such as America.

Then they should have said they were thankful to live in a country LIKE America. Not say that America is the greatest, thats it's God's country. This is blasphemy to suggest that God would support one country over the others.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

Well thats because we don't want a big government, the job of the government is to enforce laws and defend the nation. Thats why we don't trust the government because the people in it are usual greedy *******s who care nothing for anyone, but only for themselves. It's a sad reality.

Well then why don't you people vote for someone else. Vote representatives that represent you. Then you will trust your own government. In a democracy people should be happy to trust the government that they chose.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

Then they should have said they were thankful to live in a country LIKE America. Not say that America is the greatest, thats it's God's country. This is blasphemy to suggest that God would support one country over the others.

Well we see how people feel about religion, anyway THEY interpret it is the right way, look at the Westburo baptist church for god sakes. I detest religion.

Well then why don't you people vote for someone else. Vote representatives that represent you. Then you will trust your own government. In a democracy people should be happy to trust the government that they chose.

Because, it doesn't matter what I choose because if a persuasive teleprompter gets a bunch of stupid slack jawed bastards to follow him, and the honest man I am voting for can't compete because he isn't popular because he has been alienated by the media and by the other scum that infests this country. It utterly sickens me that people let this happen, although I am not surprised at all because people are stupid. They are stupid lazy and they want everything handed to them because they are pathetic and useless. They need a good kick in the ass to return them to reality and unfortunately for all of the ****ing human race the only thing powerful enough to do that are when countries collapse and your scraping a living off rocks, or getting bombed by another country. If thats what it takes to shake them from their illusion then I fear for my country, and the scariest part of it all is there is nothing I can do about it.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

Because, it doesn't matter what I choose because if a persuasive teleprompter gets a bunch of stupid slack jawed bastards to follow him, and the honest man I am voting for can't compete because he isn't popular because he has been alienated by the media and by the other scum that infests this country. It utterly sickens me that people let this happen, although I am not surprised at all because people are stupid. They are stupid lazy and they want everything handed to them because they are pathetic and useless. They need a good kick in the ass to return them to reality and unfortunately for all of the ****ing human race the only thing powerful enough to do that are when countries collapse and your scraping a living off rocks, or getting bombed by another country. If thats what it takes to shake them from their illusion then I fear for my country, and the scariest part of it all is there is nothing I can do about it.

You seem to have a very negative view of America and your government. And you seem to have no faith at all in democracy. Obviously you wouldn't be one of the people who would try to argue that America is the greatest nation in the world. I'm sure you would be very welcoming to an immigrant(with different political ideas) like me. Its to bad most other Americans I've met are war mongering racists.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

You seem to have a very negative view of America and your government. And you seem to have no faith at all in democracy. Obviously you wouldn't be one of the people who would try to argue that America is the greatest nation in the world. I'm sure you would be very welcoming to an immigrant(with different political ideas) like me. Its to bad most other Americans I've met are war mongering racists.

To be honest, I got on a bad rant, I could easily post a rant just as long and with just as much fervor about how much I love this country and how great everyone is, but what was in my head at that point in time were the words of a few senator sound bytes in my head. What they were saying echoed throughout my mind and brought a sense of dread over my entire person, it was sickening. Therefore, my outlook at that point in time was negative. Now while I don't disagree with everything I just said, I wouldn't say thats all there is too it. Everything thing I just said has another side to it, a side with some good in it. There are plenty of people out there who are brilliant people, brilliant people who are trying so hard to help this country. They are vilified however, by the mongrel scum I had a rant about, and through controlling their torch wielding mobs, this is accomplished. We need major reform, and I am very much doubting this current administration is going to carry it out. But again, I digress.


I am still very much filled with said negative point of view so forgive me if I come off as extreme and pessimistic, I am not usually in this way. I assure you that I have faith in democracy, love this country dearly. I do welcome immigrants, if they are literate, well spoken and nice people, they are most welcome, what I detest about immigrants and about citizens are people who break laws, are illiterate and are not nice people. Is that not fair?

I am sorry to hear of your experiences here in America, but please don't generalize us, (not an accusation) not everyone is that unwelcoming.

Also I think you would find, simply by asking anyone else who debates with me that I would be one to argue that it is the or one of the greatest nations in the world.

we already have millions of illegal immigrants, and it has its downsides (undermining job pay so that they pay so low, no legal resident would want the job, etc...)

I think that if America were cheaper to emigrate to legally, but harder as far as language and knowledge ofthe country, we'd be in good shape. Of course, It's probably too late to enact that policy, or at least not all of a sudden.

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

Well thats because we don't want a big government, the job of the government is to enforce laws, serve the people and defend the nation. Thats why we don't trust the government because the people in it are usual greedy *******s who care nothing for anyone, but only for themselves. It's a sad reality.

Isn't providing healthcare so people can be healty a form of "serving the people?"

if the country is a democracy, and controlled bythe people, then the government isn't really "serving" anyone but rather overseeing the policies that the people want.

it's not like the government is gonn be any more forbidding than the current helthcare system, where even if you're "lucky" enought o HAVE health ins. in the first place, good luck getting them to approve anything. you could be on your death bed and the ins. companies make you jump through hoops. :/

sorry about my rant.

Chris- unfortunately, it looks like you'll just have to go troughthe red tapes and hoops. It sucks, but America is a big country. even in Oklahoma, there are bound to be less conservative parts. if later down the road you want to move elsewhere, you can go to a more liberal place in new england orthe west coast.

I could go on, but most of the things I found offensive was the over patriotism Americans have. "America is Number one" and stuff like that. You never see Canadians walking around saying "we are better than you"

Yes, it is rather annoying. Its probably a biproduct of the Cold War mainly, since the government was big on "better dead than red" patriotic propoganda then; hopefully it will wear off in 50 years or so when people from those times compleatly die off.

Economically and militarily America is one of the stronger if not the strongest nation. Culturally we are absolutly pathetic. If you need proof of that jus observe what the average americans eat. Fries, burgers, pizza, etc. You could probably count off on one hand the number of "American" foods that are actually from America. Sure, we invented the rock (as well as the possibly metal and definetly punk subgenres), blues, and hip hop/rap genres, but that is nothing compared to all the great European composers of the 18th and 19th centuries.

On to the topic at hand: I'm pretty sure the difficulty in immigration is due to the whole "defend America from illegal mexicans" thing. If yiou had done this 10 years ago you most likely would have no trouble. That said, I know of no way to do it faster, so just hang in there.

Isn't providing healthcare so people can be healty a form of "serving the people?"

if the country is a democracy, and controlled bythe people, then the government isn't really "serving" anyone but rather overseeing the policies that the people want.

it's not like the government is gonn be any more forbidding than the current helthcare system, where even if you're "lucky" enought o HAVE health ins. in the first place, good luck getting them to approve anything. you could be on your death bed and the ins. companies make you jump through hoops. :/

Yes, that is the governments job, overseeing the peoples choices and making sure they are enacted correctly. Apparently, these windbags in the government now, seem to believe they get to do whatever is in THEIR best interest, which is NOT how it works. They are public servants not gods.

Sure, we invented the rock (as well as the possibly metal and definetly punk subgenres), blues, and hip hop/rap genres, but that is nothing compared to all the great European composers of the 18th and 19th centuries.

That is debatable.

That is debatable.

Metallica is out to make money, Beathoven was out to make art. When a civilization wishes to make art it is called culture, when they want to make money it is called capitalism. In Germany in the 1700s, composers weren't out to make money, and there works were never sold aside from concerts. Now the entire goal of musicians is to make money to enrich themselves, not to entertain. Thus America has no cluture (although in this particular example, every countries bands are like that).
That said, Metallica sounds way better than Beathoven, but thats a compleatly diffrent debate.

Originally Posted by SheikahSage

Metallica is out to make money, Beathoven was out to make art. When a civilization wishes to make art it is called culture, when they want to make money it is called capitalism. Thus America has no cluture. That said, Metallica sounds way better than Beathoven, but thats a compleatly diffrent catagory.

Again, debatable, not everyone is out to make money.

Originally Posted by SheikahSage

Metallica is out to make money, Beathoven was out to make art. When a civilization wishes to make art it is called culture, when they want to make money it is called capitalism. In Germany in the 1700s, composers weren't out to make money, and there works were never sold aside from concerts. Now the entire goal of musicians is to make money to enrich themselves, not to entertain. Thus America has no cluture (although in this particular example, every countries bands are like that).
That said, Metallica sounds way better than Beathoven, but thats a compleatly diffrent debate.

Every artist has had to pay bills, Beethoven, Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, etc. all had sponsors, but if they didn't keep up a steady rate of song output and quality then they would become destitute.

This weird belief that all the true artists died out centuries ago and that capitalism destroys art is nothing more than equating a heavily-romanticized version of history with a heavily-skewed perception of the present.

I was a little irratated when I had to get a passport to go fishing in Canada, but at least it lasts for ten years. Is it harder to get in the US than Canada?

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

I am sorry to hear of your experiences here in America, but please don't generalize us, (not an accusation) not everyone is that unwelcoming.

Also I think you would find, simply by asking anyone else who debates with me that I would be one to argue that it is the or one of the greatest nations in the world.

Mr. Valor, I do love America too, which is why I want to move there. But as a soon-to-be American how about I purpose this: Lets be a little less arrogant and the rest of the world won't hate us so much. Lets just say America is a great country, one of many, not the one and only greatest. I'm glad you agree that it needs many changes to improove, I agree with you on that although of course I disagree about what.

One thing that defiantly needs to change is your immigration laws. Why do you support laws that discriminate by language or literacy? Surely someone's language or literacy level is not theirs by choice but by their upbringing.

Originally Posted by Margar

I think that if America were cheaper to emigrate to legally, but harder as far as language and knowledge ofthe country, we'd be in good shape. Of course, It's probably too late to enact that policy, or at least not all of a sudden.

Thats another thing. Why should it matter if I don't know who the 16th president was, or how many people are in congress, or if I English is not my first language? How do these things matter to Americans as to weather or not I can live in America.

Originally Posted by SheikahSage

Economically and militarily America is one of the stronger if not the strongest nation. Culturally we are absolutly pathetic. If you need proof of that jus observe what the average americans eat. Fries, burgers, pizza, etc. You could probably count off on one hand the number of "American" foods that are actually from America. Sure, we invented the rock (as well as the possibly metal and definetly punk subgenres), blues, and hip hop/rap genres, but that is nothing compared to all the great European composers of the 18th and 19th centuries.

Economically China beats you I think, and don't be so negative of American culture! I love burgers and hot dogs and bubble gum! I don't think you invented metal, that was the Kinks, and they are from England. How many "Canadian" foods or music can you think of? I can think of a few but you probably can't. It was a Canadian who invented Basket-Ball

Originally Posted by linksmolecules

I was a little irratated when I had to get a passport to go fishing in Canada, but at least it lasts for ten years. Is it harder to get in the US than Canada?

It only took me 80 dollars and three weeks to get my passport! So i think its more easy in Canada

Originally Posted by Flames of Valor

Yes, that is the governments job, overseeing the peoples choices and making sure they are enacted correctly. Apparently, these windbags in the government now, seem to believe they get to do whatever is in THEIR best interest, which is NOT how it works. They are public servants not gods.

well I'm no expert on politics, but my bofriend has a bachelor's in political science and 2 bookshelves full of books and periodicals (the elite kind only students and professionals can subscribe to), andherecently told me that a majority of people nowadays is for universal helthcare. I have no idea where he got the info from, but I can ask him.

It seems asthough you don't have a grip on just how much the paradigm has shifted and is shifting. I don't mean to make claimswithout backup, so I'll ask my b/f about it and perhaps we can make another threadabout it, but we're kinda derailing this one so I'm gonna leave the debate for now.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

Mr. Valor, I do love America too, which is why I want to move there. But as a soon-to-be American how about I purpose this: Lets be a little less arrogant and the rest of the world won't hate us so much. Lets just say America is a great country, one of many, not the one and only greatest. I'm glad you agree that it needs many changes to improove, I agree with you on that although of course I disagree about what.

Fair enough.

One thing that defiantly needs to change is your immigration laws. Why do you support laws that discriminate by language or literacy? Surely someone's language or literacy level is not theirs by choice but by their upbringing.

Wrong, it is their choice, and speaking a common language is part of living effectively in society. I don't want to try and order a burger from someone who can't speak English. If you want to come here, then please learn to speak the language we choose to speak here. It's just like going to someones house, if you see they don't wear their shoes indoors, it would be curtious for you to also not do so. Is that not fair? Can we at least not be courteous, thats is fair, no?

Thats another thing. Why should it matter if I don't know who the 16th president was, or how many people are in congress, or if I English is not my first language? How do these things matter to Americans as to weather or not I can live in America.

I think this has something to do with voting as well.

Economically China beats you I think, and don't be so negative of American culture! I love burgers and hot dogs and bubble gum! I don't think you invented metal, that was the Kinks, and they are from England. How many "Canadian" foods or music can you think of? I can think of a few but you probably can't. It was a Canadian who invented Basket-Ball

I don't think they do yet, but they are getting close, especially with our economic downturn.

Thought I'd throw in my two cents on a few things:

Hamburgers and hot dogs (frankfurters) are German: from Hamburg and Frankfurt.

If someone says they live in the greatest country on earth, there's nothing malicious about it - they're just really proud of it. I doubt they're thinking '...and Canada sucks!'

It is important that immigrants learn the language of the country they move to. Not bothering to do this hurts everyone, as the communities become ghettoised and sows the seeds of segregation. Everyone speaking a common language is in everyone's best interests and it doesn't mean you have to forget your native tongue. Here in Ireland we have a lot of Polish immigrants and a lot of them speak very good english and everyone likes them - Polish people are more reliably civilised than even Irish people, and I find them to be good-humoured and intelligent. However, when a lot of Polish people get together at a workplace they often stop bothering to converse in english and we Irish can't understand them, so effect is that of segregation - this group stands over here, that group stands over there, and everyone knows the difference and starts to even expect non-conversation from people of the other group. This will cause problems further on down the line. There are also plenty of people who can't actually speak a word of english and rely on a coworker to translate when their boss attempts to talk to them. This is hugely inefficient, and there's no downside to learning the language of their new home. None whatsoever.