The Atheist Manifesto: Existence of God(s), Our Struggle, and Religion

Originally Posted by John

Sleep, sans dreams (which I never remember) is exactly the same as what death presumably is. Few people stay awake out of fear of going to sleep and not dreaming. Yet they're utterly terrified of dying and having the same end result.

They're utterly terrified of dying, and not of sleeping, because there is a much greater chance of waking up after going to sleep than there is of waking up after death (I'm willing to go on practically 100% vs actually 0%). The dreams (or lack of them) don't even need to be considered in that sense, as it is the end result that matters. Instead, think of the dreams as an analogue to the afterlife. When we fall asleep, we don't know whether we are going to remember our dreams, just like when we die, we don't know for certain whether there is a heaven or not. The only difference is, is that a lack of dreams doesn't affect us in the long run, as we will wake up the next morning. A lack of an afterlife is a whole other matter.

Why should not waking up matter, though? It's not as if you'll be aware of not waking up. As if you'll experience anything.

Being dead ought to be just as traumatizing as being asleep.

Let me rephrase.

It's not death that people are afraid of. It's an abscence of life.

Originally Posted by fratey

I feel very sorry for American atheists, for living in such an ignorant-about-belief country.
There's no such thing as distrust for atheists or agnostics here, at all the past 40 years. Instead, we have ridiculous taxes.
I'm glad I live here, due to the simple fact that I cannot handle religion at all.
I find it even more funny that Sweden has become more humanitarian ever since we threw out Christianity out of school (as in, bible studies and such), and people still argue that religion is peace. It's all an extreme joke.

Of course, you still have better gas prices.

You don't have to learn RE in yiour educational system? you luck fratey..thing! i go to a religious school, and if i were to say that i don't beleive i God, i'd probably get thrown out. I don't like religious education. You're so luck

Originally Posted by вℓσσ∂ѕρσят

You don't have to learn RE in yiour educational system? you luck fratey..thing! i go to a religious school, and if i were to say that i don't beleive i God, i'd probably get thrown out. I don't like religious education. You're so luck

We have objective religious education about the five world religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism), and not much more about it. Of course, I personally think there's a bit too much focus on Christianity in the lower ages (mostly how Easter came to be and such, but they actually teach false stuff like celebrating Christmas because Jesus was born when he was actually born at Easter), but hey, there's a reason for that. I don't mind.

But yeah, Bloodsport, you have my support. I hope your country will become more intelligent in religious matters.

Originally Posted by Duo

Let me rephrase.

It's not death that people are afraid of. It's an abscence of life.

Indeed, but it's a rather illogical fear in several ways.

Well, I'm a little surprised to see this on this forum. From what I witness here, it's kinda the opposite. More often than Christians saying "You're all going to burn in Hell," I see the atheist argument that religious people are just downright stupid. I know there is a fair share of Christians who argue poorly, but somehow, there's always at least one person who blows it out of proportion and assumes the argument is another righteous speech.

In regards to the Zelda Universe community, I see Christians being mocked more often than atheists being excluded. Mind you, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or anything else present on this board has not been mocked, as far as I know.

In the real world, Slur, I haven't seen it happen as much as you, probably because my perspective is different. I'm very pleased to know my good friends who are Christian for the most part keep open minds and could care less about someone else's religion.

I think the biggest problem is the Bible Belt and groups like the WBC (XDDD) who are outspoken, have ignorant arguments, and are downright rude. I don't think the mass population thinks/feels that way, though. Likewise, the mass Christian population isn't hateful towards Christians.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Kassi Aileron

Well, I'm a little surprised to see this on this forum. From what I witness here, it's kinda the opposite. More often than Christians saying "You're all going to burn in Hell," I see the atheist argument that religious people are just downright stupid. I know there is a fair share of Christians who argue poorly, but somehow, there's always at least one person who blows it out of proportion and assumes the argument is another righteous speech.

ZU is a bit oddly skewed that way, I must admit.

If nothing else, it seems likely that avowed atheists are much more likely to feel very strongly about their position than people who have grown up Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc. all their life and so, in discussions, you see more of them than other groups.

Of course, a feeling of being repressed, as I believe I noted earlier, also leads groups to tend to be far more outspoken than if they're in the majority. That probably contributes quite a bit.

However, with a few exceptions, it does seem to me that Christians tend to bring up religion here more than atheists do. Usually to justify a stance on a certain issue ("I don't think gays should marry because I'm Christian"; "I'm against abortion because I'm Christian"; etc.) Probably because "I support position x because I'm an atheist." doesn't make sense in most cases.

I think the biggest problem is the Bible Belt and groups like the WBC (XDDD) who are outspoken, have ignorant arguments, and are downright rude. I don't think the mass population thinks/feels that way, though. Likewise, the mass Christian population isn't hateful towards Christians.

It depends.

California is a pretty left-wing place, as far as US states go, so there isn't a huge amount of it there. There are another half-dozen or so states that don't care about religion at all, really, and then you start getting differing levels of acceptance.

That Gallup poll that's been cited somewhere-or-other in here about most citizens in the US never electing an atheist to any public office still seems to hold true, as far as I know there are no "openly atheist" people in any public office in the US. Plenty of "openly Christian/Jewish" ones, but not atheists. Despite atheists representing about 14% of the US population.

It's a bit odd, really.

Originally Posted by John

That Gallup poll that's been cited somewhere-or-other in here about most citizens in the US never electing an atheist to any public office still seems to hold true, as far as I know there are no "openly atheist" people in any public office in the US. Plenty of "openly Christian/Jewish" ones, but not atheists. Despite atheists representing about 14% of the US population.

It's a bit odd, really.

Rep. Pete Stark (D-Cal.): first openly nontheistic member of Congress

Originally Posted by John

California is a pretty left-wing place, as far as US states go, so there isn't a huge amount of it there.

Have you ever been here? There is still a huge amount of it here, just it is offset by there also being more people who are more to the left.

Despite atheists representing about 14% of the US population.

This is rather easy to explain; more than likely the percentage of atheists in varying areas of the country varies little between those areas, ergo non-atheists are always a majority. Public office is not as of yet designed to be a representative sample of the constituent population; indeed, how could it be without putting direct discrimination into play? It is simply meant to represent the voice of the majority of the constituency.



Also, I voted theist because I hold to faith in God, but I would place myself on the fringe between theism and free-thinking (not quite to the point of agnosticism as I have a theistic leaning). I submit in obedience to Canon law, but my actions are governed by my conscience.

[quote=Slur;2690169]Atheist simply means the denying the existence of a God. Denying an afterlife is not a requirement by any means. An Atheist can believe in an afterlife, but of course, many do not.
Why would you rather go to Hell? I don't understand the thought.
quote]

If you don't understnd that, then you will never understand anything I say. Same with anybody else who doesn't know why I would rather die and go to hell than die and not exist.

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

If you don't understnd that, then you will never understand anything I say. Same with anybody else who doesn't know why I would rather die and go to hell than die and not exist.

Try to explain, then.

Why fear non-existence? If you die and go to hell none will remember you anyways, and you will be in unimaginable pain.

If you do not exist then still none will remember you (unless you do something great with your life that will make you end up remembered.) but you won't be in pain.

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

Nothing matters in life if we all go nonexistant.

Oh? Life is important to me. It matters. People matter. Everything matters.

Indeed, everything matters more because it is finite, transient, when it's gone it will not come back. We should savour every moment of what we have, for some day we will be gone.

Besides, an afterlife doesn't give anything any more meaning; how could it? It's completely separate from this world, or so we're told. How could what we do here really matter once we're dead regardless?

Further, why must everything have an ultimate purpose? Why can we not give things purpose? We do it all the time, after all.

Water has no innate purpose, how can it? But we give it one. Electricity has no innate purpose or meaning, but we provide it with one.

We are, it would seem, all that gives anything meaning. Would you be so quick to throw away such a massive, and wonderful, task?

Anything you do, anything that happens is pointless. If we all go to nonexistance, then why do rules matter?

Because you and I exist yet, and following rules ensures that you, I, and others will enjoy this fleeting existence all the more.

If I believed we all became nonexistant, then I would do whatever I wanted. Maybe even kill people. Is that right? Is it right to kill people? Why does right and wrong matter? If we go nonexistant, then it is pointless. I suppose you could say it is bad to give others pain, but who cares? It doesn't matter, does it?

So all that keeps you from becoming a monster is fear of punishment? You honestly contend that before you do any action you stop and think: "Wait, will doing this make God angry?"

If so you need not worry about turning into a monster, you'll be one already.

I've never met a person, no matter how devout, that was moral simply out of fear of Hell. Nor have I ever met one that ran every action past their deity beforehand. Instead they rely on their morals to do what is right.

Why should any of that change without an afterlife? We are moral because it makes us and others feel good. Why is that a bad thing?

That is one simple point that I dragged on.

One thing, I don't fear anything, there isn't anything worth fearing. I am not afraid of nonexistance, only I would rather go to hell.

Why would I rather go to hell?

I would rather go to hell, because I would still exist. Sure I'd feel pain, but that's good. Pain and sadness isn't all that bad. As long as I have an opinion, as long as I can think for myself, as long as I can remember my past, and imagine my future, I'm fine with anything, even hell. Why I say it that's good, is because it might be exciting, to experience something like that.

Pain and sadness are not good. They can crush you. Destroy you. Tear away everything that was ever "you", replacing it with a hollow shell.

You would prefer that to nothing? It is, again, not as if you'd somehow be aware of nothingness. You would not be upset while you did not exist, after all.

Once again: Death is the same as 10 years before you were born. Moreso, since then you had no chance to influence anyone. Was waiting to be born such a trial that you would never repeat it again and would rather be tortured?

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

You didn't get anything I said.

What did I get wrong, then?

You argued that if there is no afterlife then nothing matters.

I asked why having an afterlife would suddenly make things matter and argued that it's irrelevant to the meaning or not of stuff.

All I have to say now, is, that because I believe in god doesn't mean that it prevents me from being a monster.

I don't care what I do, or if it makes him angry, or if it makes anybody angry. I don't care.

Then you prove my point.

It isn't the afterlife that makes you do good things.

I could just as easily turn what you said around, it isn't god that prevents me from killing people, it is becoming nonexistant. That is part of my opinion, the other part above it is the other half.

I don't follow.

How does the fear (or dislike, I suppose) of being nonexistent make you do good things? Does being moral create the afterlife? Does being immoral destroy it?

I'm trying to understand, but to do so I have to ask questions and challenge ideas to see what you believe, how far you believe it, and why you believe it.

Originally Posted by John

What did I get wrong, then?

You argued that if there is no afterlife then nothing matters.

I asked why having an afterlife would suddenly make things matter and argued that it's irrelevant to the meaning or not of stuff.


Then you prove my point.

It isn't the afterlife that makes you do good things.


I don't follow.

How does the fear (or dislike, I suppose) of being nonexistent make you do good things? Does being moral create the afterlife? Does being immoral destroy it?

I'm trying to understand, but to do so I have to ask questions and challenge ideas to see what you believe, how far you believe it, and why you believe it.

I'm really not trying to be rude, but I don't think that you will ever understand what I am trying to say.

What you said there prooves you didn't understand it. Based on your own opinions, you choke what I am saying until it is something different, and then you say something, out of ignorance, and it truly does change what I said for anybody who reads it. Ignorance of what I said, that is.

It might be best not to reply to this, because then you might turn this into something else, and I wouldn't like that kind of humiliation, if somebody takes something the wrong way.

You might as well forget everything I have said until this post, because it really isn't doing any good. Maybe you should delete them.

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

I'm really not trying to be rude, but I don't think that you will ever understand what I am trying to say.

I don't understand why a fear of nonexistence prevents you from killing people, either, so it's not just John.

Based on your own opinions, you choke what I am saying until it is something different, and then you say something, out of ignorance, and it truly does change what I said for anybody who reads it.

John, from what I can tell, by and large doesn't understand what you're trying to say, and his last post is almost entirely made up of him asking you to better explain yourself. He hasn't twisted anything that you have said because he frankly isn't sure what to make of it at all. Neither am I. I would like to, though.

Also, I forgot to add something on this:

Originally Posted by John

Despite atheists representing about 14% of the US population.

The Gallup poll says that 86% of people identify themselves as Christians. Assuming it is true, since there are more religious beliefs than Christianity and atheism, that makes it quite impossible for the other 14% to all be atheist.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

I don't understand why a fear of nonexistence prevents you from killing people, either, so it's not just John.

I never said any of that.^

I don't even care about this anymore.

I wish you would just let it all go, forget what I said, because it is only humiliating me. The things you have said against me I could describe and say things against you, but I don't because that would be stupid.

Seriously, people always tkae things I say and take them as a threay, insult, offense, or something else that would start an argument, and then they say something like what you said there.

Sure this is just discussion, but when somebody is being publically humiliated it isn't anymore.

The killing thing never had anything to do with me, it was just a hypithorical question. I don't know if I spelled that right, but Oh well.

Please just stop saying these kinds of things, it hurts my feelings, when I'm humiliated.

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

I never said any of that.^

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

it isn't god that prevents me from killing people, it is becoming nonexistant.

Did I misunderstand you?

I wish you would just let it all go, forget what I said, because it is only humiliating me.

I will, but I want you to know that I don't think you should be humiliated.

The killing thing never had anything to do with me, it was just a hypithorical question.

Do you mean hypothetical question? Because if so, now I understand that you were just making a point.

Again, do not worry; no one here thinks badly of you. At least not that I know of.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Kassi Aileron

I think the biggest problem is the Bible Belt and groups like the WBC (XDDD) who are outspoken, have ignorant arguments, and are downright rude. I don't think the mass population thinks/feels that way, though. Likewise, the mass Christian population isn't hateful towards Christians.

They are a menace to society--the WBC that is! xD

(at the bolded) I sure hope they aren't! XD

Originally Posted by John

That Gallup poll that's been cited somewhere-or-other in here about most citizens in the US never electing an atheist to any public office still seems to hold true, as far as I know there are no "openly atheist" people in any public office in the US. Plenty of "openly Christian/Jewish" ones, but not atheists. Despite atheists representing about 14% of the US population.

It's a bit odd, really.

Yes, Duo found him. The lone Atheist politician. He only came out of the closet three years ago I think. I'd have to re-read his article, for it has been a while since I have.

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

I'm really not trying to be rude, but I don't think that you will ever understand what I am trying to say.

No, with time I will understand it. Just explain yourself well and you'll be golden. I am pretty good at understanding information.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

The Gallup poll says that 86% of people identify themselves as Christians. Assuming it is true, since there are more religious beliefs than Christianity and atheism, that makes it quite impossible for the other 14% to all be atheist.

Ah, there are so many different polls that I've looked at. The data is always different, ranging between 5-15% Atheists. So I'm really sure which is more accurate.

Originally Posted by The Mask Man

I wish you would just let it all go, forget what I said, because it is only humiliating me. The things you have said against me I could describe and say things against you, but I don't because that would be stupid.

I don't feel that you are being humiliated. --No please feel free to say what you would like, just make sure it isn't an attack.

Seriously, people always tkae things I say and take them as a threay, insult, offense, or something else that would start an argument, and then they say something like what you said there.

No we haven't, at least that I know of. I haven't. Lex hasn't. J hasn't.

Sure this is just discussion, but when somebody is being publically humiliated it isn't anymore.

Yes, this is just calm easy discussion. Please, relax. I think you are feeling a little insecure.

The killing thing never had anything to do with me, it was just a hypithorical question. I don't know if I spelled that right, but Oh well.

Please just stop saying these kinds of things, it hurts my feelings, when I'm humiliated.

Actually, it was a hypothetical situation, but that doesn't matter.
No, please continue. Just try to be a little more coherent and specific. Being specific is key. I was following you for a while. We aren't attacking you or insulting you. We are question you--making you elaborate because you need to be a little more clear. I like hearing your opinions.

Pardon some of my text if the writing isn't up to snuff. Having a rough day physically/mentally. =P

Originally Posted by John

ZU is a bit oddly skewed that way, I must admit.

If nothing else, it seems likely that avowed atheists are much more likely to feel very strongly about their position than people who have grown up Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc. all their life and so, in discussions, you see more of them than other groups.

Of course, a feeling of being repressed, as I believe I noted earlier, also leads groups to tend to be far more outspoken than if they're in the majority. That probably contributes quite a bit.

That definitely makes sense, and is probably why Slur started this thread in the first place. He's definitely right that people would have a problem with an athiest president/public official. However, I don't think it's a religious problem so much as it is a government problem.

The way I see it is that America is confused. There's freedom of religion, but a few phrases ("in God we trust," "God bless America," etc) upset people who don't believe in a single God. That can all be debated to a lengthy extent, but that's a whole different discussion.

My point is that the government contradicts itself by telling people it's perfectly fine to practice any religion they want, but has an emphasis on one specific religion (Christianity). Those people who do not fall into that category are left kinda on the outside in a way.

I find it similar to America's way to instill national pride by having children recite "The Pledge of Allegiance" to a freaking flag every single morning starting in Kindergarten and lasting through high school. Sure, you can badmouth the government, but chances are you won't want to and you'll "be proud to be an American."

However, with a few exceptions, it does seem to me that Christians tend to bring up religion here more than atheists do. Usually to justify a stance on a certain issue ("I don't think gays should marry because I'm Christian"; "I'm against abortion because I'm Christian"; etc.) Probably because "I support position x because I'm an atheist." doesn't make sense in most cases.

You probably have a better idea of how often it happens than I do, seeing as I don't participate in debates as often. I see that a lot, and it's a poor Christian argument. I see a lot of Atheists bringing religion into things, though, just because they know the person is religious. (I saw it happen to Lex in some other thread recently)

It depends.

California is a pretty left-wing place, as far as US states go, so there isn't a huge amount of it there. There are another half-dozen or so states that don't care about religion at all, really, and then you start getting differing levels of acceptance.

Yet they passed a proposition removing the right for gays to marry. Go figure. =P But anyways, I know California is different because we're all a bunch of hippies. When I think about extremists, I'm talking about the southern, bible-belt states.

That Gallup poll that's been cited somewhere-or-other in here about most citizens in the US never electing an atheist to any public office still seems to hold true, as far as I know there are no "openly atheist" people in any public office in the US. Plenty of "openly Christian/Jewish" ones, but not atheists. Despite atheists representing about 14% of the US population.

It's a bit odd, really.

Well, they're a really small percentage. It's important also to look at demographics. If the atheist population has a lot of wealthy, white, educated males, they're probably more likely to hold an office than if they were, say, primarily poor, black, uneducated females. I really don't know what the demographics for race/class/wealth/education are in regards to the atheist population.

Originally Posted by Slur

They are a menace to society--the WBC that is! xD

(at the bolded) I sure hope they aren't! XD.

Slur, God loves the WBC. You should repent, you sinner. Now go wash your eyes out with fire. Or don't. Because you're doomed to rot in Hell.

You're like the Swedish.

>=3

(<333!)