Thought Provoker - Ticket to Heaven?

i'm separating this question from the other thread so we can try and keep some sort of coherent direction going, lol. the other thread seems to be going everywhere so i might not get a clear answer.

anyways, a little background info. i'm an agnostic, i don't have any system of believe, but i like to think myself open minded to ideas, but i just need concrete proof before i can accept something as truth or a fact.

this might be surprise, but i'm married into a very religious family. my wife (a christian, though fortunately more open minded and more accepting of my views than other) works at a christian preschool so once in a while i attend some functions at church with her.

i remember the paster talking about good deeds and belief. i don't remember exactly what he said word for word. but he basically said that good deeds are highly encouraged, but they're not your ticket to heaven. only accepting jesus christ as your lord and savior grants you access into the lord's kingdom.

now this really has the wheels in my head turning. so regardless of my good deeds, the christian god sees no good in me unless accept his begotten son?

here's a scenario for just for the sake of argument.

take me for example. not to speak too highly of myself. but i consider myself an honest genuine nice guy. i'm not mother teresa but typically i try to have a positive influence on the lives of everyone i meet. when i say "have a good day" i truly mean it, i want to see everyone happy. i have a conscious. if i do anything bad, i feel guilty for it. i'd be the worth criminal, theif, murderer because i'd end up turning myself in due to pure guilt. and this guilt isn't mandated by god either, it's just how i feel personally. so in short, i don't believe in god or that jesus is my lord and savior, but i'm a really nice guy.

now for the opposite :
let's imagine i'm a hardcore fundamentalist (yes this will the extreme side, but it's just for the sake of argument). i preach the gospel everyday. i thank jesus for everything from the breakfast on my plate in the morning to the pillow on my bed at night. i tell my friends about gods love everyday. in fact, my friends are only christians. i told my non christian friends off and that they must accept jesus as their and savior or they'll burn in hell. secretly i'm laughing that they'll burn in hell for their sinful ways.

a local gay man died of aids recently. oh well, **** happens, he should have been on the lords side and not gave into sin. i also painted a god hates fags sign and stood outside his funeral to make sure nobody else makes the same mistake he did.



well.. you get the idea. these are two opposites and certainly don't represent all of society, but i used these extremes just for the sake of argument.

so the question. is it really fair that a truly kind hearted person who lacks faith gets a ticket to hell, but a mean hearted bastard who's filled up to his eyeballs in jesus love gets granted into heaven.

and another question, if this is how it works, is heaven really such an appealing place? if those mean tv evangelists are filling up heaven, i'm not sure i want in.

is this truly how the christian god works?

Possibily, possibly not. I would think, that if there was a god (christian god or otherwise), it wouldn't be so petty as to deny heaven to people (no matter how good they were) just because they didn't believe in the all-powerful deity. After all, it's supposedly all-powerful, so it ought to be tough enough to shrug off a person's doubt (especially in a world like ours where terrible things happen all the time and there's not much reason to believe in a just god)

I would think that a person with good intentions and a good heart ought to be able to get into heaven, purely because of all the work they've done throughout their life trying to be as good as possible without doing it because of some ulterior purpose (only doing it for the jesus love, not because they really want to be good) Kind of like karma if you will, good deeds will merit good rewards in the end. A deity that only wants to be worshipped, no matter how insincere the worshipper and how good the 'damned' are (and damned only because they didn't believe) wouldn't be a god worth worshipping at all. If heaven was filled up with all the evangelists and other unpleasant types who only got in because of worshipping the deity, then it wouldn't be a heaven for me. If all whom I considered the cool/good people were going to hell, simply because they didn't believe or believed in the wrong god, so be it. I'd rather be with them down there rather than the petty tyrant who only cares for getting attention.

I think I'll answer this part by part.

Originally Posted by Hoju

now this really has the wheels in my head turning. so regardless of my good deeds, the christian god sees no good in me unless accept his begotten son?

Well, biblically, God doesn't see any good in you, even if you are Christian. The only good God sees in Christians is Jesus. Christianity is not a work-righteous system. It's faith. Why? One sin is enough to make you deserve hell for eternity. But, how can one finite act merit eternal punishment? Well, a sin is infinitely bad. Not because you are the sinner, but you are sinning against someone infinitely good. (For example, killing a murderer isn't as bad as killing an innocent child. The more... good a person is, the worse the act is. Therefore, a sin against an infinitely good God, even if it's just the telling of a lie, is infinitely evil. Which is why you can never, no matter how nice a person you are, (I wouldn't hold that you're a good person at all, no offense. I wouldn't hold I'm a good person either.) you're evil, and deserve death and hell. That's why, through the sacrifice of Christ, if you accept Him, and repent of your wickedness, you will be saved. Not by your own merit, but by the merit of another- The Lord, Jesus Christ.
"Even our greatest works are as filthy rags"
"There are none who do good. No, not one."
"Why do you call me good? There are none good but God"
Obviously this is a very basic answer to your question - it gets much deeper, but I'm short on time.


here's a scenario for just for the sake of argument.

take me for example. not to speak too highly of myself. but i consider myself an honest genuine nice guy. i'm not mother teresa but typically i try to have a positive influence on the lives of everyone i meet. when i say "have a good day" i truly mean it, i want to see everyone happy. i have a conscious. if i do anything bad, i feel guilty for it. i'd be the worth criminal, theif, murderer because i'd end up turning myself in due to pure guilt. and this guilt isn't mandated by god either, it's just how i feel personally. so in short, i don't believe in god or that jesus is my lord and savior, but i'm a really nice guy.

The problem here would be that, you still broke the Law, and Justice must be done.

now for the opposite :
let's imagine i'm a hardcore fundamentalist (yes this will the extreme side, but it's just for the sake of argument). i preach the gospel everyday. i thank jesus for everything from the breakfast on my plate in the morning to the pillow on my bed at night. i tell my friends about gods love everyday. in fact, my friends are only christians. i told my non christian friends off and that they must accept jesus as their and savior or they'll burn in hell. secretly i'm laughing that they'll burn in hell for their sinful ways.

a local gay man died of aids recently. oh well, **** happens, he should have been on the lords side and not gave into sin. i also painted a god hates fags sign and stood outside his funeral to make sure nobody else makes the same mistake he did.

I wouldn't think this guy is saved either. Being a saved Christian isn't "I accepted Christ, now let me distort the words of Scripture and hate gay people and threaten people with hell." A true, biblical, saved by God, Christian, WILL, by the work of God, repent, and hate sin, and not hate people for doing bad things, knowing he deserves to be hated by God, because he has also done bad things.

Also, please understand that a lot of the time, Christians don't mean "BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL" in some kind of threatening way, but rather "I urge you to repent of this wickedness, that you may be saved, because I love you"

and another question, if this is how it works, is heaven really such an appealing place? if those mean tv evangelists are filling up heaven, i'm not sure i want in.

I agree with you. If heaven was filled with most tv evangelists, I'd be.. less than wanting to go. Especially if Joel Osteen was there. But the point is that Heaven is not some place where hateful angry self-proclaimed Christians who hate everyone who is an unbeliever, but rather, where the faithful, humble, repentant, sinners who were saved by Grace, go.

I'd encourage you to read the Beatitudes, (Matthew 3... or 4..) to find out how a true Christian acts.

God bless

Originally Posted by Surio

I think I'll answer this part by part.


Well, biblically, God doesn't see any good in you, even if you are Christian. The only good God sees in Christians is Jesus. Christianity is not a work-righteous system. It's faith. Why? One sin is enough to make you deserve hell for eternity. But, how can one finite act merit eternal punishment? Well, a sin is infinitely bad. Not because you are the sinner, but you are sinning against someone infinitely good. (For example, killing a murderer isn't as bad as killing an innocent child. The more... good a person is, the worse the act is. Therefore, a sin against an infinitely good God, even if it's just the telling of a lie, is infinitely evil. Which is why you can never, no matter how nice a person you are, (I wouldn't hold that you're a good person at all, no offense. I wouldn't hold I'm a good person either.) you're evil, and deserve death and hell. That's why, through the sacrifice of Christ, if you accept Him, and repent of your wickedness, you will be saved. Not by your own merit, but by the merit of another- The Lord, Jesus Christ.
"Even our greatest works are as filthy rags"
"There are none who do good. No, not one."
"Why do you call me good? There are none good but God"
Obviously this is a very basic answer to your question - it gets much deeper, but I'm short on time.


here's a scenario for just for the sake of argument.


The problem here would be that, you still broke the Law, and Justice must be done.


I wouldn't think this guy is saved either. Being a saved Christian isn't "I accepted Christ, now let me distort the words of Scripture and hate gay people and threaten people with hell." A true, biblical, saved by God, Christian, WILL, by the work of God, repent, and hate sin, and not hate people for doing bad things, knowing he deserves to be hated by God, because he has also done bad things.

Also, please understand that a lot of the time, Christians don't mean "BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL" in some kind of threatening way, but rather "I urge you to repent of this wickedness, that you may be saved, because I love you"



I agree with you. If heaven was filled with most tv evangelists, I'd be.. less than wanting to go. Especially if Joel Osteen was there. But the point is that Heaven is not some place where hateful angry self-proclaimed Christians who hate everyone who is an unbeliever, but rather, where the faithful, humble, repentant, sinners who were saved by Grace, go.

I'd encourage you to read the Beatitudes, (Matthew 3... or 4..) to find out how a true Christian acts.

God bless

If that's what your God is, then he's a ****ing evil guy... Worse than any Satan I've seen.
How can people like you say you and your gods loves us when you also say we're absolutely disgusting and deserve death and eternal torture? That's worse than what my worst enemy would do to me, even if they hated my guts.

so nothing is good except god? it does seem odd to me that such a "good" and "perfect" being would create something so imperfect, flawed and evil. i'd say even pointless. he creates the heavens and the earth, deems it all good. but decides to do a have ass job making us? and to save us from damnation (even though he created us to be tempted by sin) he has to kill his begotten son (another one suffers unfortuantely). and from that, we accept jesus as our savior, and repent our sins.

logically, i'd wouldn't consider a god who possesses these attributes "good". thus a sin towards child i would think would be worth than sin towards a god who will only give us the time of day if we believe jesus as our lord and savior. (that of which there isn't any evidence of, but we can save that for another debate)

i don't know, but it feels like a bit of an insult to be considered "evil" and "wicked" just by default. my only true chance of redemption is to make it up to god, even though he made me this way.

i don't know. this just doesn't add up.

God works in mysterious ways.

Originally Posted by Hoju

so nothing is good except god? it does seem odd to me that such a "good" and "perfect" being would create something so imperfect, flawed and evil. i'd say even pointless. he creates the heavens and the earth, deems it all good. but decides to do a have ass job making us? and to save us from damnation (even though he created us to be tempted by sin) he has to kill his begotten son (another one suffers unfortuantely). and from that, we accept jesus as our savior, and repent our sins.

Actually, God created man to be good, and reflect His image. (Man was made in God's image), but sin ruined that. God did not cause sin, but decreed to allow it. Notice how I said allow. If subject A knows subject B will choose to sin, and then subject B sins, did subject B sin? Yes. Yes he did. Now, God is just, and good, and must deal with sin, and serve justice. That's why, on the cross, Jesus became sin, and was crushed under the hand of the Father, and Isaiah tells us it pleased the Lord to crush Him. And Justice was served, and God's people were redeemed.

logically, i'd wouldn't consider a god who possesses these attributes "good".

Well, logically, if good even exists, it must have a standard. What is the standard? Man? Then we can do anything and not be evil. Is it society? Societies' opinions differ. Is there a higher standard above man? Where did it come from? In Christianity, God is the standard, not man. So technically, you must consider that God good.

thus a sin towards child i would think would be worth than sin towards a god who will only give us the time of day if we believe jesus as our lord and savior. (that of which there isn't any evidence of, but we can save that for another debate)

Well, it's not like you really deserve the time of day. And technically, God does give you the time of day. Every bad thing that's ever happened in your life was allowed by God, for He is sovereign. Also, every good thing that's happened in your life was allowed by God, for He is sovereign, so you really can't say He doesn't give you the time of day.

i don't know, but it feels like a bit of an insult to be considered "evil" and "wicked" just by default. my only true chance of redemption is to make it up to god, even though he made me this way.

You are wicked by default, but you are also wicked by choice. Do you deny that you've never sinned on purpose?

i don't know. this just doesn't add up.

I would say it does.
Anyway, I didn't say these things to argue or insult, I just wanted to clear things up about the historical beliefs of Christianity.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by fratey

If that's what your God is, then he's a ****ing evil guy... Worse than any Satan I've seen.
How can people like you say you and your gods loves us when you also say we're absolutely disgusting and deserve death and eternal torture? That's worse than what my worst enemy would do to me, even if they hated my guts.

1) My God is evil for wanting to redeem a fallen people?
2) We can say we love you because it is true.
3) Your best friend is the one who tells you the most truth.

Originally Posted by Beh

God works in mysterious ways.

I can't believe in a God where the Holocaust is included in the "perfect plan". Could you elaborate?

Originally Posted by Surio

Actually, God created man to be good, and reflect His image. (Man was made in God's image), but sin ruined that.

This means God isn't perfect. A good tree doesn't spawn bad apples.

Originally Posted by Surio

God did not cause sin, but decreed to allow it. Notice how I said allow. If subject A knows subject B will choose to sin, and then subject B sins, did subject B sin? Yes. Yes he did. Now, God is just, and good, and must deal with sin, and serve justice. That's why, on the cross, Jesus became sin, and was crushed under the hand of the Father, and Isaiah tells us it pleased the Lord to crush Him. And Justice was served, and God's people were redeemed.

Yeah, justice was definitely served!!!11
Hahahaha.

Originally Posted by Surio

Well, logically, if good even exists, it must have a standard. What is the standard? Man? Then we can do anything and not be evil. Is it society? Societies' opinions differ. Is there a higher standard above man? Where did it come from? In Christianity, God is the standard, not man. So technically, you must consider that God good.

Is jealousy good? God himself says he's a jealous God in your book.

Originally Posted by Surio

Well, it's not like you really deserve the time of day. And technically, God does give you the time of day. Every bad thing that's ever happened in your life was allowed by God, for He is sovereign. Also, every good thing that's happened in your life was allowed by God, for He is sovereign, so you really can't say He doesn't give you the time of day.

I'm also sovereign, as I create my own days. Your point is as valid as unicorns.

Originally Posted by Surio

You are wicked by default, but you are also wicked by choice. Do you deny that you've never sinned on purpose?

Elaborate. Sinning for the sake of sinning, or sinning just because something is defined as a sin? What defines a sin, and to mix it up, don't throw in your holy book.

Originally Posted by Surio

I would say it does.

"God is good but he enjoyed watching his son dying"
Yeah, adds up perfectly.

Originally Posted by Surio

1) My God is evil for wanting to redeem a fallen people?

Yes. Infinite punishment for finite sin is evil.

2) We can say we love you because it is true.

You can't love people when you also want them to suffer and die in eternal agony and torment. That's a blatant contradiction.
You don't want things like that to happen to people you love and care about, and if you do, I'd seriously recommended going to a psychiatrist, because it sounds like what a murderer/psychopath/sociopath would say.

Originally Posted by Surio

3) Your best friend is the one who tells you the most truth.

*stepdances*

Originally Posted by fratey

I can't believe in a God where the Holocaust is included in the "perfect plan". Could you elaborate?

I'm agnostic. I was just posting a common argument. If we continue I'd say that you're trying to put logic to the actions of an omnipotent being, who "flooded the entire world", "set cities on fire", and "killed the Egyptians".

You know, looking back on this thread and the Hate for Christians thread, it becomes more and more clear to me on just why I find Christianity such an unpleasant religion. Granted not every Christian is like Surio and Tristaan, but the beliefs themselves leave a nasty aftertaste in my mouth enough without the more extreme views offending me.

Such as... in that Hate for Christians thread, we got John saying "I'd say that no one deserves death, but going by the biblical justification that anyone who so much as looks funny at an Israelite deserves death some of them did. However, the plagues weren't targeted at those ones."

And the reply to that?

"Whatever. God does what he wants."

Whatever. Meh. Who cares. Seriously, that kind of response makes me ffffffffffff and question what kind of god these people believe in. Okay, so we got a god who is mad at one person, and instead of sorting him out directly, he turns his rage against the other people who had little/nothing to do with the enslaved jews (ironically, there's no actual evidence the jews were ever in Eqypt, such we'll ignore that for the sake of the thread). You'd think that an all-powerful god would do something more appropriate, like strike the pharoah down with a heart attack or seal his anus shut until he caves into Moses' demands (because not being able to poop is really quite uncomfortable, not exactly lethal, but uncomfortable all the same), but instead of that, he directs his rage towards the peasants and kills a load of firstborn babies (CUZ GOD IS PRO-LIFE AND LOVES BABIES AMIRITE... oh wait, maybe that only applies to fetuses...)

And that's why I find Christiany such a ridiculous, over the top and unbelievable religion. Going even further when looking back on this thread, it's people like Surio that make me hate Christianity even more. They make the belief so vile and unpleasant with that I can't help but curl my lip in disdain whenever I see the vitrol they spout. Surio may say that he doesn't want to go to a heaven filled with hateful angry self-proclaimed Christians who hate everyone who is an unbeliever, but in my eyes, he's only a step away from being just like them.

I would never worship and love such a blatantly evil god, even if it means losing the ticket to heaven. I don't ever want to be with people like that, as it's bad enough living on the same planet with them.

Originally Posted by fratey

This means God isn't perfect. A good tree doesn't spawn bad apples.

God didn't spawn sin. God is still perfect.

Yeah, justice was definitely served!!!11
Hahahaha.

In what way was it not served?

Is jealousy good? God himself says he's a jealous God in your book.

Jealousy is normally something bad, but there's a king of righteous jealousy. If you had a wife, and she was being unfaithful, would it not be natural to be jealous of the man she's cheating on you with? Actually, if that kind of jealousy wasn't there, I'd think you didn't love your wife.

I'm also sovereign, as I create my own days. Your point is as valid as unicorns.

Well I was just answering his question, as to why God only gives his believers the time of day, and I said that He does, in fact, pay attention to nonbelievers.

Elaborate. Sinning for the sake of sinning, or sinning just because something is defined as a sin? What defines a sin, and to mix it up, don't throw in your holy book.

Regardless. Any type of sin counts.

"God is good but he enjoyed watching his son dying"
Yeah, adds up perfectly.

Well, actually, it wasn't the suffering of His son that He enjoyed crushing, but the sin that was crushed.

Yes. Infinite punishment for finite sin is evil.

1) Men, by nature, hate God. In hell, they continue hating God, forever. Ergo, punishment is forever.
2) Also, the act is as bad as the victim of this act is good. Infinitely good God, infinitely evil sin, even if the sinner is only capable of finite things. It's not the sinner himself that makes the sin infinitely evil, but who he's sinning against.

You can't love people when you also want them to suffer and die in eternal agony and torment. That's a blatant contradiction.
You don't want things like that to happen to people you love and care about, and if you do, I'd seriously recommended going to a psychiatrist, because it sounds like what a murderer/psychopath/sociopath would say.

Well, we don't want people to suffer and die in eternal agony in torment. That's why we preach. That they may believe, and have faith, and be saved, because we love them.

Originally Posted by Surio

God didn't spawn sin. God is still perfect.

Then God isn't omnipotent if he cannot control sin. You're wrong either way unless you redo your argument.
When you really think about it, sin isn't really 'evil' as defined by us, it's just not doing what god wants/doing what god doesn't want you to do. That's why it's okay for god to go on killing sprees and wipe out a load of people, because he's not actually sinning (he's doing what he wants, so it's just!)

Originally Posted by Surio

In what way was it not served?

Perhaps it was, but I must say, your God has more style doing blood rituals than I do.

Originally Posted by Surio

Jealousy is normally something bad, but there's a king of righteous jealousy. If you had a wife, and she was being unfaithful, would it not be natural to be jealous of the man she's cheating on you with? Actually, if that kind of jealousy wasn't there, I'd think you didn't love your wife.

If you could stop your wife from being unfaithful, wouldn't you do it?
Or, is God not omnipotent?

Originally Posted by Surio

Well I was just answering his question, as to why God only gives his believers the time of day, and I said that He does, in fact, pay attention to nonbelievers.

Holocaust.

Originally Posted by Surio

Regardless. Any type of sin counts.

What defines a sin.

Originally Posted by Surio

Well, actually, it wasn't the suffering of His son that He enjoyed crushing, but the sin that was crushed.

So Jesus was infested? Now I know where they got inspiration for Alien Vs. Predator...

Originally Posted by Surio

1) Men, by nature, hate God. In hell, they continue hating God, forever. Ergo, punishment is forever.

Infinite punishment for finite sin, however, is still not good. By that logic, you're going to hell with me... See you there, mate.

Originally Posted by Surio

2) Also, the act is as bad as the victim of this act is good. Infinitely good God, infinitely evil sin, even if the sinner is only capable of finite things. It's not the sinner himself that makes the sin infinitely evil, but who he's sinning against.

Again, see you in hell. Hopefully they have card games there, do you play Canasta by chance?

Originally Posted by Surio

Well, we don't want people to suffer and die in eternal agony in torment. That's why we preach. That they may believe, and have faith, and be saved, because we love them.

God has already decided who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. Preaching is useless.

Originally Posted by Surio

1) Men, by nature, hate God. In hell, they continue hating God, forever. Ergo, punishment is forever.

I don't. I don't believe in him. How can I hate something I do not believe in?

2) Also, the act is as bad as the victim of this act is good. Infinitely good God, infinitely evil sin, even if the sinner is only capable of finite things. It's not the sinner himself that makes the sin infinitely evil, but who he's sinning against.

That doesn't follow at all.

The morality of the person targeted by an act has no bearing on the morality of the act itself. Robbing a person who volunteers at a homeless shelter is just as bad as robbing someone who doesn't.

In addition, this means that God could make himself less than infinitely perfect and would then save everyone from hell. Sure, it's a bit of a sacrifice for him, but would that not be the loving thing to do?

Originally Posted by fratey

Then God isn't omnipotent if he cannot control sin. You're wrong either way unless you redo your argument.
When you really think about it, sin isn't really 'evil' as defined by us, it's just not doing what god wants/doing what god doesn't want you to do. That's why it's okay for god to go on killing sprees and wipe out a load of people, because he's not actually sinning (he's doing what he wants, so it's just!)

God can indeed control sin. How many times in the bible does God use sin to do something good? Like when Joseph's brothers sold him to the Ishmaelites. That was sin, but God meant it for good, that Joseph can become a co-pharaoh of sorts, and feed his family, who sold him, during the famine.
Also, if there is any kind of standard for good and evil, it would be God, or man, or unknown. If it's the latter choices, then it's all relative, or unknown. If it's unknown, we go onto relativism. If it's all relative, then no one can be held responsible for their acts. God is the standard. Therefore, yes, if God does it, it must be okay, logically.

Perhaps it was, but I must say, your God has more style doing blood rituals than I do.

Heh.
Well, without blood, there is no remission.

If you could stop your wife from being unfaithful, wouldn't you do it?
Or, is God not omnipotent?

God decreed to allow them to be unfaithful, yes. God's still omnipotent.

Holocaust.

Within the will of God.

What defines a sin.

Oh. Well, biblically, a sin is something that contradicts God's nature. God hates killing innocents, therefore murder is wrong. (All people are guilty, so technically, God can kill them. We can't, however, because we're also guilty. We'd just be hypocrites, which is sin, because God hates hypocrisy. Also, in Israel, when the town was to stone someone, that doesn't count either, because that wasn't one man killing someone else, that was a civil law of capital punishment.

So Jesus was infested? Now I know where they got inspiration for Alien Vs. Predator...

No. Jesus was sinless, but he -in a sense- became sin. The sin of His people, that God may crush it. The debt was payed, in a matter of speaking.

Infinite punishment for finite sin, however, is still not good. By that logic, you're going to hell with me... See you there, mate.
Again, see you in hell. Hopefully they have card games there, do you play Canasta by chance?

Not exactly. The sacrifice of Christ, remember? I'm saved because He died for me. The offer is open to anyone, including you.
Also, I already showed how it's not finite sin. Sin is infinitely evil because it's against an infinitely Holy God.

God has already decided who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. Preaching is useless.

It's a little more complicated than that.
You are, by choice, rejecting the Gospel. So does every other man. By nature, they all choose to reject it.
Man does not have perfect free will, but is still a free agent. (He chooses.)
So God changed the nature of His people, that they may be saved. And yes, who would be saved was decided by Him. You, however, are till called to repent. That' Calvinism, anyway. The Arminian point of view would tell you that you have perfect free will. Either way, the point is, you are still called to repent, and believe, and be saved.

Originally Posted by John

I don't. I don't believe in him. How can I hate something I do not believe in?

You may not believe in Him on an intellectual level, but you certainly hate Him on a spiritual level. You deny your hatred of the God of the Old Testament, who you constantly speak against? Even then, in hell, I'm sure you'd believe in Him.

The morality of the person targeted by an act has no bearing on the morality of the act itself. Robbing a person who volunteers at a homeless shelter is just as bad as robbing someone who doesn't.

So if someone murdered some mob boss, it would be just as bad as murdering an innocent little girl?

In addition, this means that God could make himself less than infinitely perfect and would then save everyone from hell. Sure, it's a bit of a sacrifice for him, but would that not be the loving thing to do?

You're implying that the goal is to make as many people be saved as possible.
God could have left man without any knowledge of the law, and without a savior, and He would be just.

Originally Posted by Surio

You may not believe in Him on an intellectual level, but you certainly hate Him on a spiritual level.

Which means what, exactly?

You deny your hatred of the God of the Old Testament, who you constantly speak against?

If God existed, and did the things he did in the OT for the reasons given in the OT then yes I'd hate him, because he'd be a monster.

Even then, in hell, I'm sure you'd believe in Him.

But I wouldn't go to hell if I didn't believe in him, by your reasoning, yes?

So if someone murdered some mob boss, it would be just as bad as murdering an innocent little girl?

Yep. Well, the girl is a bit worse because she's lost more of her life and the emotional impact on others is greater. But the fact that she's innocent has no bearing on the morality of the killing.

You're implying that the goal is to make as many people be saved as possible.
God could have left man without any knowledge of the law, and without a savior, and He would be just.

He'd also be a monstrous sociopath.

Originally Posted by Surio

God can indeed control sin. How many times in the bible does God use sin to do something good? Like when Joseph's brothers sold him to the Ishmaelites. That was sin, but God meant it for good, that Joseph can become a co-pharaoh of sorts, and feed his family, who sold him, during the famine.

Then why is there sin? Why is there a totally useless, secondary factor that's meant to torment people?

Originally Posted by Surio

Also, if there is any kind of standard for good and evil, it would be God, or man, or unknown.

Where's the "none of the above" pick?

Originally Posted by Surio

If it's the latter choices, then it's all relative, or unknown. If it's unknown, we go onto relativism. If it's all relative, then no one can be held responsible for their acts.

Excuse me?

Originally Posted by Surio

God is the standard.

Which God, though?

Originally Posted by Surio

Therefore, yes, if God does it, it must be okay, logically.

Except that's hypocritical, you know. "God is good, but he can do evil and then it's good".

Originally Posted by Surio

Heh.
Well, without blood, there is no remission.

Now tell me this - Why couldn't he cleanse humanity without killing his son?

Originally Posted by Surio

God decreed to allow them to be unfaithful, yes. God's still omnipotent.

Then why does he want them to go to hell?
1. God is omnipotent.
2. God allows people to be unfaithful.
3. Not being faithful is a sin.
4. Sinners burn in hell.
So either
a] God is malevolent, or
b] God is not omnipotent.
Your choice, darling.

Originally Posted by Surio

Within the will of God.

So if I kill you, it was God's will. I'm not going to count as a sinner, as it was under God's will that I killed you.
Next.

Originally Posted by Surio

Oh. Well, biblically, a sin is something that contradicts God's nature. God hates killing innocents, therefore murder is wrong. (All people are guilty, so technically, God can kill them. We can't, however, because we're also guilty.

Except that someone cannot be innocent and guilty at the same time.

Originally Posted by Surio

We'd just be hypocrites

Don't worry, you're a good way on that path.

Originally Posted by Surio

which is sin, because God hates hypocrisy.

God states that he's a jealous God. Jealousy is a sin. What is that, if not hypocrisy? Without pulling the "God is exempt from the rules" card.

Originally Posted by Surio

Also, in Israel, when the town was to stone someone, that doesn't count either, because that wasn't one man killing someone else, that was a civil law of capital punishment.

Under order from a divine being.

Originally Posted by Surio

No. Jesus was sinless, but he -in a sense- became sin. The sin of His people, that God may crush it. The debt was payed, in a matter of speaking.

In what sense?

Originally Posted by Surio

Not exactly. The sacrifice of Christ, remember? I'm saved because He died for me. The offer is open to anyone, including you.

So believing in that Christ died for our sins, exempts us from all sins?

Originally Posted by Surio

Also, I already showed how it's not finite sin. Sin is infinitely evil because it's against an infinitely Holy God.

No, you believed that you showed how it's not finite sin.

Originally Posted by Surio

It's a little more complicated than that.
You are, by choice, rejecting the Gospel. So does every other man. By nature, they all choose to reject it.

However, it contradicts that he's omniscient.

Originally Posted by Surio

Man does not have perfect free will, but is still a free agent. (He chooses.)
So God changed the nature of His people, that they may be saved. And yes, who would be saved was decided by Him. You, however, are till called to repent. That' Calvinism, anyway. The Arminian point of view would tell you that you have perfect free will. Either way, the point is, you are still called to repent, and believe, and be saved.

Yeah, and which book to believe, huh. There's so many branches, you see.

Originally Posted by Surio

You may not believe in Him on an intellectual level, but you certainly hate Him on a spiritual level. You deny your hatred of the God of the Old Testament, who you constantly speak against? Even then, in hell, I'm sure you'd believe in Him.

I'd highly suggest you don't put words in either his or mine mouth. ;/

I just wanted to point something out:

Originally Posted by Surio:
You may not believe in Him on an intellectual level, but you certainly hate Him on a spiritual level. You deny your hatred of the God of the Old Testament, who you constantly speak against? Even then, in hell, I'm sure you'd believe in Him.

John cannot go to Hell if he does not believe in God, because Hell is a place that exists within the belief in which God exists...
So someone who is not Christian cannot go to hell. A Christian will think that you will go to Hell, due to his beliefs, but in the end, it comes down to your belief.

I'm an Atheist, and I know I am going to end up as a pile of bones 6 feet underground (Well, first I'd be a corpse, but the skin and remaining tissue will break down, and bones will remain for quite a long time).
In fact, you could say that's my belief.

Also, in Israel, when the town was to stone someone, that doesn't count either, because that wasn't one man killing someone else, that was a civil law of capital punishment.

Ah, so if one man kills another in response to being wronged by the other man, the first man has sinned, but if a community does the same it isn't sinful?

Does this mean the holocaust wasn't sinful, as it was the act of a community? The Darfur Conflict? Every mass killing in earth's history?

You may not believe in Him on an intellectual level, but you certainly hate Him on a spiritual level. You deny your hatred of the God of the Old Testament, who you constantly speak against?

I can't put words into John's mouth, (well, I guess I could, as it seems you're perfectly capable of it, but I wont) but as for myself, I've never 'spoken out' against the god of the Old Testament. I've merly pointed out that the attitude this god supposedly had and the actions it supposedly took conflicts with the concept of a god which isn't upright ****ing evil.

Also, I already showed how it's not finite sin. Sin is infinitely evil because it's against an infinitely Holy God.

Lets start with something a little simpler.

Can you objectively show as what is and isn't evil?

Here's an example: During the early 40's the Nazi party would go door to door in Germany and Austria looking for Jews, and if they didn't find any, they would question the owners of the home about any hiding Jews.

Let's say you're one of these home owners. Knowing that these Jews are being sent to terrible concentration camps and death camps, you agreed to let a Jewish family live in your attic.

Now a Nazi official comes knocking on your door. What do you tell him?

If you lie to him to aid the Jewish family you're harboring then you've borne false witness.

If you tell him that you're harboring Jews you have effectively murdered them.

Which action is evil? Are both evil? Then the harborer should turn in those they are harboring as to save himself the trouble and cost of keeping them there?

Oh my goodness I'm under siege. Okay let's see how many people I can answer.

Originally Posted by fratey

Then why is there sin? Why is there a totally useless, secondary factor that's meant to torment people?

Sin is there because the Devil tempted Eve. Why was it allowed by God? Probably so that He can be glorified in the death of Christ, though I'm not infallible.

Where's the "none of the above" pick?

Well, if it's not man, and it's not God, and it's not some other choice, then absolute morality doesn't exist, and anyone can do anything and not be evil.

Excuse me?

If man is the standard of morality, then everyone's morals are right, and no one can be blamed for being evil, because people's thoughts on evil all vary.

Which God, though?

Well, since we're talking about Christian beliefs here, then uh.. The only one.

Except that's hypocritical, you know. "God is good, but he can do evil and then it's good".

Nope. God can not do evil, because God is good. Therefore, if God does something, chances are that it's good.

Now tell me this - Why couldn't he cleanse humanity without killing his son?

Because then sin would not be dealt with, and justice would not be passed, and He would be a corrupt Judge.

Then why does he want them to go to hell?
1. God is omnipotent.
2. God allows people to be unfaithful.
3. Not being faithful is a sin.
4. Sinners burn in hell.
So either
a] God is malevolent, or
b] God is not omnipotent.
Your choice, darling.

God is not malevolent. God doesn't force people to sin, God allows them to. Especially with the choice to accept Christ, people have no excuse not to be saved.

So if I kill you, it was God's will. I'm not going to count as a sinner, as it was under God's will that I killed you.
Next.

Wrong. If you killed me, it is sin. Your sin, however, was within the will of God, that He may use it for good. You still chose to be evil, and are therefore a sinner.

Except that someone cannot be innocent and guilty at the same time.

God is not guilty, nor are we innocent. I have a feeling I'm not understanding your point. Please be clearer.

Don't worry, you're a good way on that path.

Though I don't deny being a hypocrite sometimes, I hate my own hypocrisy. This doesn't at all help your case, though.

God states that he's a jealous God. Jealousy is a sin. What is that, if not hypocrisy? Without pulling the "God is exempt from the rules" card.

As explained, there is a sort of righteous Jealousy. The whole 'if the wife is unfaithful' example.

Under order from a divine being.

Well, the people did deserve to die. God just let Israel carry out the judgment.

In what sense?

In the sense where Jesus payed for the sins of His people. Suffered in their place. Was the propitiation, etc.

So believing in that Christ died for our sins, exempts us from all sins?

All sins you have committed, yes.

No, you believed that you showed how it's not finite sin.

Well, okay. Show how I haven't proved it.

However, it contradicts that he's omniscient.

How so?

Yeah, and which book to believe, huh. There's so many branches, you see.

Well, we're talking about Christian beliefs, then I'd say the book to believe is the Bible.

I'd highly suggest you don't put words in either his or mine mouth. ;/

Well, I admit that part of what I said was said with an angry heart, and I apologize, but he does, in fact, speak against the God of the OT a lot, so I'd assume he hates Him.

Time to answer mah buddy John.

Originally Posted by John

Which means what, exactly?

That deep down, you know He exists, even though your so-called rational reasoning convinces you otherwise.

If God existed, and did the things he did in the OT for the reasons given in the OT then yes I'd hate him, because he'd be a monster.

Yeah, I thought so.

But I wouldn't go to hell if I didn't believe in him, by your reasoning, yes?

..The double negative makes my brain hurt.
Uhm, you'd go to hell if you did not believe in Him.

Yep. Well, the girl is a bit worse because she's lost more of her life and the emotional impact on others is greater. But the fact that she's innocent has no bearing on the morality of the killing.

How so?

He'd also be a monstrous sociopath.

So you hold that He would still be just?

Originally Posted by 8bit

Ah, so if one man kills another in response to being wronged by the other man, the first man has sinned, but if a community does the same it isn't sinful?

Well the community is just, by the authority of God, doing justice (Which God let them do for Him).

Does this mean the holocaust wasn't sinful, as it was the act of a community? The Darfur Conflict? Every mass killing in earth's history?

No, they were/are all sinful, (Except, since I know someone'll bring this up, the wars that God commanded Israel to take part in) because they were done for selfish, murderous reasons, and not authorized by God as the justice of God.

I can't put words into John's mouth, (well, I guess I could, as it seems you're perfectly capable of it, but I wont) but as for myself, I've never 'spoken out' against the god of the Old Testament. I've merly pointed out that the attitude this god supposedly had and the actions it supposedly took conflicts with the concept of a god which isn't upright ****ing evil.

Lets start with something a little simpler.

Can you objectively show as what is and isn't evil?

Here's an example: During the early 40's the Nazi party would go door to door in Germany and Austria looking for Jews, and if they didn't find any, they would question the owners of the home about any hiding Jews.

Let's say you're one of these home owners. Knowing that these Jews are being sent to terrible concentration camps and death camps, you agreed to let a Jewish family live in your attic.

Now a Nazi official comes knocking on your door. What do you tell him?

If you lie to him to aid the Jewish family you're harboring then you've borne false witness.

If you tell him that you're harboring Jews you have effectively murdered them.

Which action is evil? Are both evil? Then the harborer should turn in those they are harboring as to save himself the trouble and cost of keeping them there?

Oh, I've heard this one before, and I'll admit that it's pretty much up for debate amongst Christians, but here's my take.
Well, I wouldn't say I murdered them if I said yes, but I don't think I'd say yes anyway.
1) Lie, have them probably search your house anyway, maybe find the Jews, kill them.
2) Tell the truth, have the Jews killed.
3) Say nothing, having the Nazis suspect you, and probably kill you and the Jews.
4) Try to do something stupid like kill the Nazi.
Now, motive is also important. A righteous act can sometimes be sullied by a wicked motive.
A lie because of a genuine love of the Jew.. I would hold that it is sin, but I wouldn't blame someone for doing it. In Exodus, God praised the women who lied to the Egyptians about having sons, for example. Saying yes isn't sin, exactly, unless it's done out of a desire to save yourself, which I would hold is sin. Now I wouldn't think saving the Jew would be more important than dishonoring God, so saying nothing would be a good option. So I would say it would be okay to lie.

Also:

Originally Posted by Lord Insizor

I just wanted to point something out:



John cannot go to Hell if he does not believe in God, because Hell is a place that exists within the belief in which God exists...
So someone who is not Christian cannot go to hell. A Christian will think that you will go to Hell, due to his beliefs, but in the end, it comes down to your belief.

I'm an Atheist, and I know I am going to end up as a pile of bones 6 feet underground (Well, first I'd be a corpse, but the skin and remaining tissue will break down, and bones will remain for quite a long time).
In fact, you could say that's my belief.

I don't think any atheist here would dispute that if the God of the Bible existed, they'd go to hell.
God can't really exist for some people and not really exist for others. He either does or He doesn't.

Originally Posted by Surio

I'm not speaking out against the actions of your god as portrayed in the Old Testament, I'm simply saying that his actions in the old testament make him seem like a hateful, terrible being, which conflicts with the picture of a 'loving god' Christians tend to paint.

If you want to tell me that your god is a terrible, sadistic god and only seems to take joy out of watching people suffer, then I'd agree that that is what your god must be if he exists.

Picture this conversation:

Person A: My uncle sets children on fire with his mind, just to see them burn, but he's a loving uncle.
Person B: I really don't believe your uncle has that ability, but if he does, he doesn't seem very loving.
Person A: Ah, so you believe my uncle has these powers!

I feel like Person B in this situation.

No, they were/are all sinful, (Except, since I know someone'll bring this up, the wars that God commanded Israel to take part in) because they were done for selfish, murderous reasons, and not authorized by God as the justice of God.

How do you know they weren't authorized by God? Hitler claimed Christianity. What about the Spanish Inquisition? What about the Salem witch trials?

Are you god? How do you know what is and isn't authorized by god?

So I would say it would be okay to lie.

So now you have authority to break a commandment? This is an infinitely evil action, because you are acting against an infinitely good being, yes? So therefore the community should be allowed to stone you for lying?