Abortion vs. Adoption

Originally Posted by Linkey

Everyone agrees that smashing puppies is inhumane - not everyone agrees that abortion is inhumane.

Thats exactly what I mean. Killing a unitelligent dog that will never be smart enough to do anything more than fetch a stick is considered worse than killing a sentient human being, and a young one at that. Will someone please explain to me why this sort of logic is acceptable?

I am not anti choice. I simply believe that a person should have control over their own life, and that a fetus is a separate being from the mother. That is why I don't like abortion, but I'm fine with suicide. I hope that's clearer, Aziel.

Originally Posted by SheikahSage

Thats exactly what I mean. Killing a unitelligent dog that will never be smart enough to do anything more than fetch a stick is considered worse than killing a sentient human being, and a young one at that. Will someone please explain to me why this sort of logic is acceptable?

A fetus is not sentient.

Originally Posted by Linkey

Not everyone have the same opportunities as you.

If you were born with a fully functional mind and body, yes you do have same opportunities as me.

Originally Posted by SheikahSage

Thats exactly what I mean. Killing a unitelligent dog that will never be smart enough to do anything more than fetch a stick is considered worse than killing a sentient human being, and a young one at that. Will someone please explain to me why this sort of logic is acceptable?

I had no idea smashing fetuses with concrete bricks was a method of abortion in America.
Oh, and

Originally Posted by SheikahSage

sentient

what.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

If you were born with a fully functional mind and body, yes you do have same opportunities as me.

I doubt every single American with a fully functional mind and body had the exact same opportunities as you.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

If you were born with a fully functional mind and body, yes you do have same opportunities as me.

You've never heard of being a victim is circumstance? Contrary to what conservatives and mothers would have us believe, not everyone can do anything they put their mind to.

Originally Posted by Linkey

I doubt every single American with a fully functional mind and body had the exact same opportunities as you.

Trust me, most of them have had more.

You've never heard of being a victim is circumstance? Contrary to what conservatives and mothers would have us believe, not everyone can do anything they put their mind to.

I've uh.....been a victim of circumstance before. What's gotten me this far is the belief that I can.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

If you were born with a fully functional mind and body, yes you do have same opportunities as me.

Not at all. Someone born on a hospital that's blown up by terrorists the day they were born had rather fewer chances than you did.

Even if they survive that, if they're in a third world country...Or a poor part of the states...

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

I've uh.....been a victim of circumstance before. What's gotten me this far is the belief that I can.

Which directly contradicts what you said earlier about everyone having the same chances as you.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

Trust me, most of them have had more.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

most

wake up and smell the ashes.

Originally Posted by John

Not at all. Someone born on a hospital that's blown up by terrorists the day they were born had rather fewer chances than you did.

Even if they survive that, if they're in a third world country...Or a poor part of the states...

LIKE ME!?

Ok, seriously, what kind of comparison was that? "Nuh uh! Someone who's DEAD has less opportunities than you!"

"That's because they're dead."

That and why were third world countries brought into a discussion that's mostly about abortion in america?

I love ZU.

Which directly contradicts what you said earlier about everyone having the same chances as you.

Ok, how does me having a STATE OF MIND contradict or even MEAN that someone has less of a chance than I do?

Come o think of it, I can name a few people that have had even LESS support than I have and re doing BETTER than I am currently.



If you're a mentally (meaning no disabilities) and physically (and I've seen people in wheel chairs work and raise kids) able to work there's no good excuse why you can't raise a child that's healthy, that YOU conceived. End of story.

Originally Posted by Avalanchemike

Most people in the Western world could have the same opportunities as anyone else if they tried.

This quotation is a very excellent summary of a prevalent and damaging attitude in the United States: that working and lower class people could be richer if they tried harder.

And it makes me want to puke.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

LIKE ME!?

Ok, seriously, what kind of comparison was that? "Nuh uh! Someone who's DEAD has less opportunities than you!"

"That's because they're dead."

That and why were third world countries brought into a discussion that's mostly about abortion in america?

I love ZU.

As far as I can tell you stated that everyone in the world had the same opportunities.


Clearly this is nowhere near true.

Ok, how does me having a STATE OF MIND contradict or even MEAN that someone has less of a chance than I do?

Come o think of it, I can name a few people that have had even LESS support than I have and re doing BETTER than I am currently.

You stated everyone had the same chances.

Then said that people can be victims of circumstance.

Which is it?


the truth is that people born to families below the poverty line are very unlikely to ever be above the poverty line themselves. While those born above it are likely to stay there. (Though it's more likely for them to drop below than for someone below to rise above it.)


Clearly there's something going on there.

Originally Posted by John

As far as I can tell you stated that everyone in the world had the same opportunities.


Clearly this is nowhere near true.

I don't why you're claiming to have observed that seeing as I NEVER SAID IT. But, ok.

You stated everyone had the same chances.

Then said that people can be victims of circumstance.

Which is it?

I was a victim of circumstance at several points in my life. It still don't stop me from doing what I needed to do. Get it now?

the truth is that people born to families below the poverty line are very unlikely to ever be above the poverty line themselves. While those born above it are likely to stay there. (Though it's more likely for them to drop below than for someone below to rise above it.)


Clearly there's something going on here.

From the looks of things you inserted that last sentence because you yourself are unable to think of a good reason why that statistic happens to be that way. It's because there is no good reason. My mother over the past two years has grown her income to over 40 thousand a year. She started off being 17, with a baby and homeless.

If she did it, there's no excuse why anybody else in America can't.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

From the looks of things you inserted that last sentence because you yourself are unable to think of a good reason why that statistic happens to be that way. It's because there is no good reason. My mother over the past two years has grown her income to over 40 thousand a year. She started off being 17, with a baby and homeless.

If she did it, there's no excuse why anybody else in America can't.

It wasn't easy for her. There's no reason to wish that unease on anyone else.

That's like me saying "well, I managed to survive a violent attack, there's no reason why anyone else shouldn't."

It may have been to her detriment, but that was her choice. You cannot force that choice on others just because your own mother got lucky - other seventeen-year-old homeless mothers will not be so lucky.

Who said I "wish" that on anyone else? Technically, if you agreed to sex, got pregnant and had a kid that you currently can't afford....didn't you do it to yourself?There's an OLD saying that can be inserted here....

Life throws **** at you. You have to roll with it and get back up though. That's the great thing about america, is that you can always turned a ****ed up situation into a good one with enough determination.

So again, it's no excuse.

Originally Posted by sapphira

]This quotation is a very excellent summary of a prevalent and damaging attitude in the United States: that working and lower class people could be richer if they tried harder.

And it makes me want to puke.

WHAAAAT!?

How do you think people get rich and stay rich anyway? Money doesn't fall in the lap of anyone. If you've got good money and continue to have good money coming in, that means you're doing something to make that possible.

I'm sigging that. that's to good.

Most people who have sex without intention of getting pregnant used contraception, if that contraception fails they can hardly be blamed because they tried. They did not intend to have a child, they took measures to prevent having that child, that foetus will develop into an unwanted child, therefore to take measures to ensure that this child is born is retarded unless you really don't care for its quality of life.

And even then, I don't see any valid ground to deny the mother a choice unless it would be detrimental to her health to allow her to have such an abortion.

If life throws **** at you, then who cares about abortion? That's "****" being thrown at the foetus, and they have to deal with it. If it happens, it happens!

Money doesn't fall in the lap of anyone. If you've got good money and continue to have good money coming in, that means you're doing something to make that possible.

You're totally right. The British Monarchy has earned every single penny it has.

Ha. ****ing. Ha. If I was so pathetic as to keep a tally of stupid quotes in my signature, I'd quote you, because if you honestly believe that, you really must be a fool. Because by virtue of things like inheritance, money has and still does fall into the lap of people who haven't worked a day in their life. Many peerages in Britain and a lot of money in America is kept by people who only have their property because it was left to them by their parents, and these people are not only rich, but are actually allowed to have an influence on politics by virtue of nothing more than being born into the right family.

You think a footballer who makes £25,000 a week works more than a binman who is lucky if he makes that much in a year? Think again, the only reason the footballer is being paid that much isn't because he is working to earn every penny, but because people are willing to pay that money to watch him play. The demand is what finances him, not the work he puts into it.

Businessmen who make a good product only have to make one copy of that product, then hire people to make a machine that can mass-produce that product, or pay people minimum wage to contribute to a stage of production, and then sit there as the money rolls in due to copyright. And copyright can be inherited, meaning that if your copyright is making enough money, and continues to make enough money, your son may never have to get off his lazy arse to do anything beyond do some shopping. Such businessman may not work every day of their life, but because of the demand, the money comes to them. They don't go to it. And so on, and so forth.


Just because your mother suffered a detriment, does not mean that every mother is obliged to. Like I said, that's like saying that just because I managed to work through suffering, that every person should undergo the same suffering, just because I did. That's not a reasoning.

Wow. You're right. I have nothing more to say on the matter.







JUST PLAYIN.

Originally Posted by The Arbitrator

Most people who have sex without intention of getting pregnant used contraception, if that contraception fails they can hardly be blamed because they tried. They did not intend to have a child, they took measures to prevent having that child, that foetus will develop into an unwanted child, therefore to take measures to ensure that this child is born is retarded unless you really don't care for its quality of life.

Which takes us back to something I already said.

If you simply don't want a kid that bad either get some surgery or DON'T HAVE SEX.

And even then, I don't see any valid ground to deny the mother a choice unless it would be detrimental to her health to allow her to have such an abortion.

Brings me back something I (!!!!) already said.

You DID have a choice. unless you were raped, YOU agreed to have sex KNOWING there was a possibility of pregnancy. You unwillingly made the choice to get pregnant as a result. Again, there's an old saying.....

If life throws **** at you, then who cares about abortion? That's "****" being thrown at the foetus, and they have to deal with it. If it happens, it happens!

Uh, no. That's something that happens through the choice of an individual. therefore it doesn't fall into the "**** happens" category. Getting hit by a car in an accident and getting paralyzed is an example of life throwing **** at you. Slipping and falling down stairs and losing a baby is example of "**** happens". You can't cut off your own foot and then go "ah, well, **** happens"

You're totally right. The British Monarchy has earned every single penny it has.

Ha. ****ing. Ha. If I was so pathetic as to keep a tally of stupid quotes in my signature, I'd quote you, because if you honestly believe that, you really must be a fool. Because by virtue of things like inheritance, money has and still does fall into the lap of people who haven't worked a day in their life. Many peerages in Britain and a lot of money in America is kept by people who only have their property because it was left to them by their parents, and these people are not only rich, but are actually allowed to have an influence on politics by virtue of nothing more than being born into the right family.

Reading comprehension, my son.

"If you've got good money and continue to have good money coming in, that means you're doing something to make that possible."

There's been many examples of family fortunes being drained to nothing DESPITE INHERITANCE because the person who obtained it was a lazy, incompetent moron. HISTORY HAS PROVEN THIS. Entire kingdoms have crumbled because it was inherited by a bad king and companies have fallen into bankruptcy once passed onto some else.

Let's say a 20 year old, who's parents were rich, dies and he gets thier money.

Fast froward 30 years later. He's still rich. You think that's because of his parents 30 years after the fact?

You think a footballer who makes £25,000 a week works more than a binman who is lucky if he makes that much in a year? Think again, the only reason the footballer is being paid that much isn't because he is working to earn every penny, but because people are willing to pay that money to watch him play. The demand is what finances him, not the work he puts into it.

Yeah. and then he has a bad season, the team cuts him and nobody else in the league wants to pick him up because he gets hurt all the time and is late for practice.

Look up the Titans player Yancy Thingpen.

Footballer?

Businessmen who make a good product only have to make one copy of that product, then hire people to make a machine that can mass-produce that product, or pay people minimum wage to contribute to a stage of production, and then sit there as the money rolls in due to copyright. And copyright can be inherited, meaning that if your copyright is making enough money, and continues to make enough money, your son may never have to get off his lazy arse to do anything beyond do some shopping. Such businessman may not work every day of their life, but because of the demand, the money comes to them. They don't go to it. And so on, and so forth.

Uh, can you name a single product that hasn't been proven to be obsolete or needed a new revision in the past twenty years? There isn't a company on the planet that doesn't have to keep up with the times; and the person with the copyright has to decide which direction to take it, right?

right?

Just because your mother suffered a detriment, does not mean that every mother is obliged to. Like I said, that's like saying that just because I managed to work through suffering, that every person should undergo the same suffering, just because I did. That's not a reasoning.

And again, I'm not saying that.

Why did your post have to be so long. It lacks good material as a result. (grumble)

again, for the record, because this is ZU and someone will make the misconception. I am neither for or agianst abortion. it just depends.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

Which takes us back to something I already said.

If you simply don't want a kid that bad either get some surgery or DON'T HAVE SEX.

Or use contraption. Surgery isn't always 100% successful either, and again, there is no reason, no reason at all, to deny the choice of abortion.

Brings me back something I (!!!!) already said.

You DID have a choice. unless you were raped, YOU agreed to have sex KNOWING there was a possibility of pregnancy. You unwillingly made the choice to get pregnant as a result. Again, there's an old saying.....

No, you used contraception knowing there was the high possibility that you WOULDN'T get pregnant. Whenever you go outside, you leave the house knowing that there's a POSSIBILITY that you could get stabbed, mugged, and your body left on the side of the street to rot. By your logic, that means you deserved it.

Uh, no. That's something that happens through the choice of an individual. therefore it doesn't fall into the "**** happens" category. Getting hit by a car in an accident and getting paralyzed is an example of life throwing **** at you. Slipping and falling down stairs and losing a baby is example of "**** happens". You can't cut off your own foot and then go "ah, well, **** happens"

Getting hit by a car in an accident is the result of the driver being a pisspoor driver. Resulting from that driver's choice to drive the car.

And well, if you got pregnant, but didn't intend to get pregnant, and took measures to avoid that, **** happens. But there are measures you can take to avoid the pregnancy you didn't want to begin with. Such as abortion.

If you catch a disease, **** happens! Does this mean we shouldn't take measures to cure the diseased party? Of course it doesn't, that's retarded. Same goes for abortion. By chance, a result you do not desire has occurred. There are things we can do to prevent this, therefore there is no reason to tolerate it.

Reading comprehension, my son.

"If you've got good money and continue to have good money coming in, that means you're doing something to make that possible."

There's been many examples of family fortunes being drained to nothing DESPITE INHERITANCE because the person who obtained it was a lazy, incompetent moron.

Let's say a 20 year old, who's parents were rich, dies and he gets thier money.

Fast froward 30 years later. He's still rich. You think that's because of his parents 30 years after the fact?

READING COMPREHENSION, MY SON.

Firstly, the issue of things like copyright and royalties. If you write a song or an album, that doesn't take much effort. Playing that song doesn't take nearly as much effort as manual labour does. But people may keep buying that song or album until the day you die, and if you leave the copyright and the royalties to your descendants in the will, they will keep on making that money as long as people keep buying that song. And yet, people who have done much more work than yourself will never make anywhere near as much money as you did. Metallica could easily retire off the proceeds of Master of Puppets alone.

Secondly, the British Monarchy. All the Queen does is sign papers with her name, make a speech that she didn't even write a few times per year, and meet with foreign Heads of State to have dinner and otherwise enjoy a holiday. She makes millions of pounds every year. She has a sustained income, but does things that any monkey could do given a little bit of training. That money has been coming to her family for literally centuries, and continues to come to her family now. She is rich by no virtue of her own. You seem to think that everyone who has money, and continues to make money, does so by their own good graces. You are wrong - they either make that money because people are willing to pay that money, which does not mean they deserve that money for the work done, simply that people are willing to pay that money for their service. Or they make that money because of factors that have literally nothing to do with their own skills, such as people who inherit royalties or copyrights, or monarchies, or other people with titles.

SOME people do deserve that money. I do not deny that. But it is stupid to suggest that EVERY PERSON who is rich is that way because of their own doing, because it is quite frankly wrong.

Yeah. and then he has a bad season, the team cuts him and nobody else in the league wants to pick him up because he gets hurt all the time and is late for practice.

Look up the Titans player Yancy Thingpen.

Footballer?

But again, the work he does is nowhere near deserving of the pay he gets. He is only paid by demand, not for the work he does.

Uh, can you name a single product that hasn't been proven to be obsolete or needed a new revision in the past twenty years? There isn't a company on the planet that doesn't have to keep up with the times; and the person with the copyright has to decide which direction to take it, right?

right?

Books? Music? Movies? Sure, new mediums of viewing have been invented, but the films themselves remain exactly the same. Francis Ford Coppola didn't have to do anything for the Godfather to be converted into DVD format and sold, but he's still making money off it. Sure, he makes other films in the meanwhile, but he could easily retire off the profits he's making from the Godfather.

And again, I'm not saying that.

You said, and I quote, "If she did it, there's no excuse why anybody else in America can't." Implicitly you're saying anyone could easily do the same under the same conditions, when quite frankly not everyone is so lucky. You are also saying that if anyone would suffer hardship as a result of pregnancy, they should do so just because your mother did. Under that logic, I could argue that if anyone suffers a serious wound, they should stick it out instead of seeing medical help. After all, my mother did!

Why did your post have to be so long. It lacks good material as a result. (grumble)

It has plenty of good material which you have failed to argue against coherently or sensibly. Your own posts are lacking in sense. All I'm doing is using your own logic against you in order to demonstrate how your own logic is flawed.

Damnit you're right.


OH WAIT, MY FINGERS ARE STILL TYPING.

Originally Posted by The Arbitrator

Or use contraption. Surgery isn't always 100% successful either, and again, there is no reason, no reason at all, to deny the choice of abortion.

But the thing is, I also named a 100% effective way of not getting pregnant that doesn't remove anything from your everyday life or health that you just failed to reference.

No, you used contraception knowing there was the high possibility that you WOULDN'T get pregnant. Whenever you go outside, you leave the house knowing that there's a POSSIBILITY that you could get stabbed, mugged, and your body left on the side of the street to rot. By your logic, that means you deserved it.

Bad comparison.

Having sex and getting pregnant unintentionally is more like walking by yourself in the bronx at 3 am with 3,000 dollars cash in a ziplock bag tied around your neck while wearing a t-shirt that says "guns are for cowards!" with a baseball cat that says "I'm not from around here" written on it.

You're just asking for something to happen

Getting hit by a car in an accident is the result of the driver being a pisspoor driver. Resulting from that driver's choice to drive the car.

I have no idea why you bothered to debate that example, but I' guess I can play to.

What if the driver has a stroke at the wheel?

And well, if you got pregnant, but didn't intend to get pregnant, and took measures to avoid that, **** happens. But there are measures you can take to avoid the pregnancy you didn't want to begin with. Such as abortion.

Or, more sensibly, *cough* not having sex *cough*

If you catch a disease, **** happens! Does this mean we shouldn't take measures to cure the diseased party? Of course it doesn't, that's retarded. Same goes for abortion. By chance, a result you do not desire has occurred. There are things we can do to prevent this, therefore there is no reason to tolerate it.

Wow, you just compared pregnancy to getting a disease.

Anyway, let me try this example:

Cocaine has been proven to kill people who try it only for the first time. Although the odds of that happening are like 1 in 2 thousand.

You're at your friends party, and their passing around a coke pipe and doing a few lines. You've never done this before, but seriously, the odds of this happening are one in two-thousand? So surely death is highly un-HOLY **** YOUR HEART JUST EXPLODED!

Who's fault is that?

READING COMPREHENSION, MY SON.

Firstly, the issue of things like copyright and royalties. If you write a song or an album, that doesn't take much effort. Playing that song doesn't take nearly as much effort as manual labour does. But people may keep buying that song or album until the day you die, and if you leave the copyright and the royalties to your descendants in the will, they will keep on making that money as long as people keep buying that song. And yet, people who have done much more work than yourself will never make anywhere near as much money as you did. Metallica could easily retire off the proceeds of Master of Puppets alone.

First off, promoting a song actually and getting it noticed is just as vital song writing in a music career. And if you've ever seen "an American dream" you'd understand what hard work that could be.

Secondly, MC hammer made some of the most popular songs of all time (everyone knows can't touch this). His kids grew up on welfare after the fact.

Secondly, the British Monarchy. All the Queen does is sign papers with her name, make a speech that she didn't even write a few times per year, and meet with foreign Heads of State to have dinner and otherwise enjoy a holiday. She makes millions of pounds every year. She has a sustained income, but does things that any monkey could do given a little bit of training. That money has been coming to her family for literally centuries, and continues to come to her family now. She is rich by no virtue of her own. You seem to think that everyone who has money, and continues to make money, does so by their own good graces. You are wrong - they either make that money because people are willing to pay that money, which does not mean they deserve that money for the work done, simply that people are willing to pay that money for their service. Or they make that money because of factors that have literally nothing to do with their own skills, such as people who inherit royalties or copyrights, or monarchies, or other people with titles.

SOME people do deserve that money. I do not deny that. But it is stupid to suggest that EVERY PERSON who is rich is that way because of their own doing, because it is quite frankly wrong.

o_o

Dude, aren't you from whales? Shouldn't you know this? queen E the 2nd was one of the most influential and prominent political figures of the last century. she doesn't do it much anymore because the the woman is 82 years old. And even then, other members of the family stand in for her now. She's already proven herself.

But again, the work he does is nowhere near deserving of the pay he gets. He is only paid by demand, not for the work he does.

Ok, as someone who played football growing up, IT'S HARD WORK. But them not deserving what they earn is matter of opinion. Regardless, they have to go get it in order for it to come in. It doesn't come for free.

You said, and I quote, "If she did it, there's no excuse why anybody else in America can't." Implicitly you're saying anyone could easily do the same under the same conditions, when quite frankly not everyone is so lucky. You are also saying that if anyone would suffer hardship as a result of pregnancy, they should do so just because your mother did. Under that logic, I could argue that if anyone suffers a serious wound, they should stick it out instead of seeing medical help. After all, my mother did!

What is it with you and these horrible examples?

First off, my mother can't be considered lucky to be without a home, income, and a child at the age of 17.

Secondly, your example is bad because wounds don't heal themselves all the time just like situations never fix themselves. One could say that her busting her ass to make things right is the situational equal to going to a hospital if hurt.

It has plenty of good material which you have failed to argue against coherently or sensibly. Your own posts are lacking in sense. All I'm doing is using your own logic against you in order to demonstrate how your own logic is flawed.

going to have to do better that what you have been doing.

Originally Posted by Tigerboi

But the thing is, I also named a 100% effective way of not getting pregnant that doesn't remove anything from your everyday life or health that you just failed to reference.

Never leaving your house is a very effective way of not getting murdered.

Bad comparison.

Having sex and getting pregnant unintentionally is more like walking by yourself in the bronx at 3 am with 3,000 dollars cash in a ziplock bag tied around your neck while wearing a t-shirt that says "guns are for cowards!" with a baseball cat that says "I'm not from around here" written on it.

You're just asking for something to happen

It's a very good comparison, actually. Your example is like having sex without contraception. I would agree if that is what you were arguing. But it is a very different situation if you use contraception. Contraception is a very effective way of preventing pregnancy. Your example only applies to having sex without using any form of contraception whatsoever.

I have no idea why you bothered to debate that example, but I' guess I can play to.

What if the driver has a stroke at the wheel?

Fair enough, but that doesn't apply to sexual intercourse while using contraception, unless you apply it to the example of the contraception failing. The driver can't account for having a stroke at the wheel, since depending on his condition this is unlikely, and the sexual intercourse with various means of contraception can't account for that contraception failing. If you think people shouldn't have sex because that risk exists, however small, then people should never get in cars, because the risk is also small depending on their health.

Or, more sensibly, *cough* not having sex *cough*

Or more sensibly, never leaving the house will lower any chance of you getting murdered. Never driving will lower any chance of ever being in an accident. Never eating will lower any chance of you choking. And so on, and so forth.

Contraception. Account for it, mate.

Wow, you just compared pregnancy to getting a disease.

So what? To many, it is. That's why people take measures to prevent it.

Anyway, let me try this example:

Cocaine has been proven to kill people who try it only for the first time. Although the odds of that happening are like 1 in 2 thousand.

You're at your friends party, and their passing around a coke pipe and doing a few lines. You've never done this before, but seriously, the odd of this happening are one in two-thousand? What are the odds of-HOLY **** YOUR HEART JUST EXPLODED!

Who's fault is that?

Actually, the odds of cocaine having a detrimental effect on your health are high. The odds of sex having a detrimental effect, if you use contraception, are less than ten percent. You'd know this if your schools taught you basic sex education, or if you even paid attention during those lessons. If you use multiple forms of contraception at once, this lowers to below one percent.

First off, promoting a song actually and getting it noticed is just as vital song writing in a music career. And if you've ever seen "an American dream" you'd understand what hard work that could be.

True, but in many cases you don't need to write that song or promote the song yourself. You just have a good voice, and by chance, you get noticed, sing what people tell you to sing, and make a fortune.

Secondly, MC hammer made some of the popular songs of all time. His kids grew up on welfare.

That's unfortunate for them. He failed to leave them the copyright licence, clearly.

o_o

Dude, aren't you from whales? Shouldn't you know this? queen E the 2nd was one of the most influential and prominent political figures of the last century. she doesn't do it much anymore because the the woman is 82 years old. And even then, other members of the family stand in for her now.

I am from Wales, not Whales. If you can't make the distinction between a country and an ocean-dwelling mammal it doesn't surprise me that you can't hold your own in an argument. I am also a student of the British Legal System, which is precisely why I know what the Queen's job is. Her job is as I described it - assenting to Acts of Parliament (putting her name on pieces of paper, without even needing to read them), making a speech a few times per year (which isn't even written by her, just that people want to hear HER saying it), and meeting with the Heads of States of other countries for a cup of tea and a chat. The British taxpayer pays her wages for virtually nothing. Everything she does could easily be done by a Prime Minister, who actually DOES have a job besides that of a figurehead, but her role is outdated and archaic.

Ok, as someone who played football growing up, IT'S HARD WORK. But them not deserving what they earn is matter of opinion. Regardless, they have to go get it in order for it to come in.

My mother stocks shelves five nights a week all year. Not days, nights. Works her arse off, loses her daytimes, loses her social life, in order to work. She makes maybe £20,000 per year. If she's lucky. Including overtime.

Footballers spend their lives working out and kicking a ball around a field. Many people do this as a hobby, and actually pay to do it. Footballers get £25,000 a WEEK.

What is it with you and these horrible examples?

First off, my mother can't be considered lucky to be without a home, income, and a child at the age of 17.

I meant that she got lucky later down the line. Other homeless 17 year old mothers may not raise themselves up beyond the $40,000 earning bracket as you stated your mother does. It is just not within their capability. Not everyone has the same skills.

Secondly, your example is bad because wounds don't heal themselves all the time just like situations never fix themselves. One could say that her busting her ass to make things right is the situational equal to going to a hospital if hurt.

That wasn't you were initially arguing. Your logic was that if your mother put up with it, other people can as well. My mother put up with a pretty deep wound, therefore others can as well. You have redefined your argument.

going to have to do better that what you have been doing.

Likewise.