Gay Marriage

Originally Posted by Alter

Actually, those laws were in effect for a reason- to show humans that they could never live up to God's standards.

If you read the whole thing, you would see that these laws changed when Jesus died on the cross. The point was that humans can never be perfect, so someone had to be perfect for us. You honestly need to do a bit more research.

Whenever I'm told "Yeah, well Jesus changed that," it makes him sound like a lazy Jew, imo.

I don't have much faith in the Bible myself. The only part of it that could be considered actually true is everythig that Jesus said. Everything else...well, you can write anything in a book and there will be people who blindly follow it, taking it as the word of God. So, following this, I ask: Did Jesus himself ever condemn homosexuals?

Originally Posted by Skar

I hope that is a joke.

It sorta was. My point was that there is a much smaller crowd that supports traditional marriage here than gay marriage.

I make my own decisions. I decided to follow one who's decisions are far batter that my own.

Zelda Universe does not convey the thoughts and opinions of an entire country, let alone an entire world.

Originally Posted by Alter

Actually, those laws were in effect for a reason- to show humans that they could never live up to God's standards.

If you read the whole thing, you would see that these laws changed when Jesus died on the cross. The point was that humans can never be perfect, so someone had to be perfect for us. You honestly need to do a bit more research.

Yes, they had a reason back then, but not now. That's what I'm trying to say, we're not supposed to follow those laws anymore. From the point Jesus died onwards.

Originally Posted by Alter

I make my own decisions. I decided to follow one who's decisions are far batter that my own.

Therefore they are not yours. They belong to a bunch of dudes who died many many years ago.

Alter:

I found most of your response agreeable. There's just one part that bothered me.

What is that choice? Should I have the right to steal and murder? What are your rights? is the real question.

I'm sure you're aware that there is a fundamental difference between stealing, murder, and homosexuality.

The first two infringe on the rights of other humans. We don't need the bible to tell us that.

Homosexuality, meanwhile, is harmless. Even if you believe it is damaging to the soul, it would be the perpetrator's own soul. They're not infringing on the rights of others at all.

Originally Posted by Sir Calibur

I don't have much faith in the Bible myself. The only part of it that could be considered actually true is everythig that Jesus said. Everything else...well, you can write anything in a book and there will be people who blindly follow it, taking it as the word of God. So, following this, I ask: Did Jesus himself ever condemn homosexuals?

Ahh! You bring up an excellent point! Jesus never did condemn homosexuals! The reason for this is really quite simple-

Jesus came to teach the Jews- the Jews were a people well-grounded in the law (the Torah). They knew what the Bible said about homosexuality. It was known by almost every Jew. There was no reason to make this point to them. True, Jesus came to teach all, but at that point it time, it would have seemed silly to go into that can of worms.

But Jesus is very much alive! He wrote the Bible through his own people. Quite miraculous, don't you think? Well, it was nice talking to you. I'm done with you for now, Enuf3.

Wait, I was under the impression that the Bible was written after Jesus' death.

Originally Posted by Sir Calibur

I don't have much faith in the Bible myself. The only part of it that could be considered actually true is everythig that Jesus said. Everything else...well, you can write anything in a book and there will be people who blindly follow it, taking it as the word of God. So, following this, I ask: Did Jesus himself ever condemn homosexuals?

I recall him saving a gay man's partner somewhere in the bible, but I forgot where exactly.

Well fine. If you want to believe that.. I'm gonna believe that there was a one legged hobo named Tobias who was God's cousin and he told the people of Munchkin Land IV that you were only going to Heaven if you ate apples while hanging upside down over a body of water.

Quite miraculous.

Originally Posted by Ron_Mexico

Alter:

I found most of your response agreeable. There's just one part that bothered me.



I'm sure you're aware that there is a fundamental difference between stealing, murder, and homosexuality.

The first two infringe on the rights of other humans. We don't need the bible to tell us that.

Homosexuality, meanwhile, is harmless. Even if you believe it is damaging to the soul, it would be the perpetrator's own soul. They're not infringing on the rights of others at all.

Yes, they are different, but the Bible says that sin is sin. (Found in James, part of the NT) Lying and murder are both wrong. On is not better or worse than the other.

I don't think I need to go into AIDS. I know several people who died through AIDS. Given to them by their own parents, who had been gay. Reason enough right there...

Originally Posted by Alter

Now to begin: Personally, I am against gay marriage or homosexual civil unions. The first reason is that I am a Christian, and it is clearly stated in the Bible that it is WRONG.

And I believe that religion is WRONG, however, I will not try to outlaw churches.

The second would be that people are not born gay. They may be born with an orientation to be more attracted to the same gender, but it all comes down to a choice.

On a side note, I should point out to all of you that (weather pro-gay or not) who love "science" that it has not been proven that there is a gay gene. All efforts that have attempted to prove that there is one have failed. This point is not arguable IMO, not will I discuss it.

It's pretty arguable, though. A 1993 study by Dr D. Hammer from the national institute of health has shown that people who claim to be gay tend to have the same alleles in the Xq28 region of the X chromosome. Likewise, studies have shown that people who claim to be homosexual tend to have more relatives who also claim to be homosexual than someone who claims to be heterosexual.

Beyond that, there are studies in brain structure, epigenetics, and pharomones which all point to a biological differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals.

The third would be that marriage has almost always been regarded as a relationship between a man and a woman. Why the sudden change? Is it cool? Perhaps so, but I believe there is more to it. I'll touch on this later.

Women have almost always been considered the legal property of their fathers or husbands. Why did we change this?

Which side beats up up old ladies in church parking lots?

Neither.

Which side runs into churches screaming their side of the issue and persecuting innocent people?

Neither.

Which side sets houses and churches on fire?

Neither.

Which side starts riots in the streets?

Both.

The answer to all of the above would be the gay supporters/activists.

Source? I've never heard of a gay-rights supporter who has beaten up old ladies in church parking lots and set houses on fire.

The other side is not without blame, either. There have been anti-gay sermons preached, as well as a few random hate crimes performed by certain extremists.

While I don't hear much about gay on straight violence, I've heard quite a bit about straight on gay violence. Gay bars have been bombed, gays have been tortured and murdered. There's even an area in the town I live in colloquially named 'Gay Man's Drop' because some years ago, a group of men abducted a gay man, assaulted him, decapitated him, and threw him into a river at that spot.


Illegal? I'll need to see some proof of this. Look at it this way- unethical is a point of view. From my standpoint, it is unethical to have homosexual relationships. Heh heh... I should also point out that there are more people who think it is unethical than those who don't. Disagree? Then why was it passed? In CA of all places??

As for illegal, our Constitution makes it evident that all people must have the same rights. But look at it this way- will you treat someone who is a child molester the same way as one who "isn't"? Should you have let them babysit your children, just because they have the same "rights"? From many people's point of view, it's a very similar case.

A child molester has hurt someone else in the act of becoming a child molester. A homosexual man or woman has not.

And yes, I believe that someone who is religious should have the same freedoms as myself even though I believe their faith is unethical and illogical.

Originally Posted by El Dimentio

I recall him saving a gay man's partner somewhere in the bible, but I forgot where exactly.

Really? I'm afraid that I can't seem to find that part... You're going to have to do better than making false statements. Now you may actually believe this to be true... what if it was? Would that be wrong? Jesus healed many people- all of them sinners. As I just posted, the Bible says that all sin is sin.

I don't think I need to go into AIDS. I know several people who died through AIDS. Given to them by their own parents, who had been gay. Reason enough right there...

Homosexuality has nothing to do with the transmission of HIV.

Originally Posted by Skar

Homosexuality has nothing to do with the transmission of HIV.

I said AIDS, not HIV. Similar, yet different. AIDS has been directly linked to homosexual behavior.

HIV causes AIDs.

HIV and AIDs is linked to SEXUAL behavior.

As I said before, I condemn violence on both sides. I believe that the gay on straight violence has been far worse.

Everyone, please remember that I do not fight for anti-gays. I fight for traditional marriage. They are two very different things.