Is Religion the Greatest Cause of Murder? (PLEASE READ DISCLAIMER)

In a words, no.

I am a Christian, but I do believe in proper research. Researching this particular topic, I find that all the murders committed by "Christians" (i.e. people calling themselves Christian) do not even approach those who top the list. In fact, I would like to contend that the highest "body counts" were committed in places with an intentionally atheistic ideology.

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not claiming that atheism teaches genocide, nor will I ever. Atheism teaches nothing really; it's just the non-belief of God, or any other gods.

2. I am not, in this thread, trying, nor will I try to debate the existence of God. It's a valid topic however, and can be debated in the Biblical Contradictions thread.

Well, you know, we did have the crusades... Those were buckets of fun, I'm sure. And the Inquisition! Oh what joy!

But religion being the sole greatest cause of murder? No, we can contribute that to war, which can further be contributed to ideology.

Originally Posted by Zauriel

In a words, no.

I am a Christian, but I do believe in proper research. Researching this particular topic, I find that all the murders committed by "Christians" (i.e. people calling themselves Christian) do not even approach those who top the list. In fact, I would like to contend that the highest "body counts" were committed in places with an intentionally atheistic ideology.

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not claiming that atheism teaches genocide, nor will I ever. Atheism teaches nothing really; it's just the non-belief of God, or any other gods.

2. I am not, in this thread, trying, nor will I try to debate the existence of God. It's a valid topic however, and can be debated in the Biblical Contradictions thread.

To claim that Atheism is the higher body count is completly untrue.. Not only has religion had a head start but it has at times even outright supported murder.

The Inquisition and Crusades were bloody ordeals that in their self murders so many. Witch hunts has targeted the innocent and thats just considering Christian acts. In India, the Muslims dont have a particularlly clean record.

Its also worth noting that Theocracies are rather bloody.

Now, it might be argued that a non-religious regime like that of Stalin outrank religious murders. This is false, the time of massacres by Stalin and Mao and such were not really commited by true communists and this was a time of mass slaughter were technology was advanced enoughed to implement mass slaughter.

Immagine if the Catholic Church of the time of the Inquisition or Crusades had the weapons of poision gas or machine guns. A slaughter unheard of by man would have followed as the Catholic Church seeked to route out 'heretics'.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Well, you know, we did have the crusades... Those were buckets of fun, I'm sure. And the Inquisition! Oh what joy!

But religion being the sole greatest cause of murder? No, we can contribute that to war, which can further be contributed to ideology.

Well ,the exact number is unknown, but in the Inquisition, the number is below 1,000. That doesn't make it right; it still was a horrible event along with the crusades, but it's far from being "countless", as some claim.

Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK

To claim that Atheism is the higher body count is completly untrue.. Not only has religion had a head start but it has at times even outright supported murder.

Atheistic regimes, not atheism itself. There is a difference.

Also, when has religion "outright supported murder"?

The Inquisition and Crusades were bloody ordeals that in their self murders so many. Witch hunts has targeted the innocent and thats just considering Christian acts. In India, the Muslims dont have a particularlly clean record.

They were bloody, but the numbers just don't approach things such as Mao Zedong's "Great Leap Forward". Witch hunts? The number of deaths were in the hundreds.

Its also worth noting that Theocracies are rather bloody.

Substantiation?

Now, it might be argued that a non-religious regime like that of Stalin outrank religious murders. This is false, the time of massacres by Stalin and Mao and such were not really commited by true communists and this was a time of mass slaughter were technology was advanced enoughed to implement mass slaughter.

No true Scotsman, huh?

Originally Posted by Zauriel

Well ,the exact number is unknown, but in the Inquisition, the number is below 1,000. That doesn't make it right; it still was a horrible event along with the crusades, but it's far from being "countless", as some claim.

I can defiantly claim the number of deaths in the Inquisition defiantly outweigh 1000, that number is a laughable figure. The Inquisition not only slaughter and drained the region of the Jews and Moors, they tortured most of their victims.

And I'm just talking the Spanish Inquisition, the foul hand of the Catholic Church reached further then that, and in many cases caused bloody revolts and wars through acts of 'Excommunication'.

The Pope even showed his willingness to feed young men into the meatgrinder as he sent them off to reclaim the 'holy land' while in fact all he was trying to do was get them killed so he could maintain power back home while they died in some foreign trek.

Originally Posted by Zauriel

Well ,the exact number is unknown, but in the Inquisition, the number is below 1,000. That doesn't make it right; it still was a horrible event along with the crusades, but it's far from being "countless", as some claim.



Atheistic regimes, not atheism itself. There is a difference.

Also, when has religion "outright supported murder"?



They were bloody, but the numbers just don't approach things such as Mao Zedong's "Great Leap Forward". Witch hunts? The number of deaths were in the hundreds.



Substantiation?



No true Scotsman, huh?

The Regimes of Stalin and Mao however never commited attrocities in the name of Atheism... They were done by mad men much like Hitler, who it could be argued the Holocaust was caused by religion, or more so ones hate for religion. However, Religious acts have always been commited in the name of god.

Religion has in many instances supported murder... Islam, though a respectable religion, has on instances in the Koran called for the death of the infedels. Its been some time since I read through the Bible but Im sure that there are instances in their as well.

Originally Posted by Zauriel

In a words, no.

I am a Christian, but I do believe in proper research. Researching this particular topic, I find that all the murders committed by "Christians" (i.e. people calling themselves Christian) do not even approach those who top the list. In fact, I would like to contend that the highest "body counts" were committed in places with an intentionally atheistic ideology.

Even if it were true that more people had been killed by atheists then by theists, you're missing the point. No one kills in the name of atheism, whereas people kill in the name of religion all the time. Even Stalin didn't kill because of atheism. While it was a heavy influence on who he killed, his true motive for killing was Communism.

Also, care to explain how atheists, only making up 2.35% of the world's religions today let alone how small that number was hundreds of years ago (Source), can possibly be responsible for more deaths than theists? It just seems to be a technical impossibility to me. If there are 2.35% atheists, and 11.92% that are non-religious, that leaves us with 85.73% religious people.

So, there are way more theists than atheists, therefore it's far more likely that more people have died at the hands of theists than atheists. Now, I'm certainly not saying that when a Christian (not trying to say anything here, I just picked a religion for this one) goes out on the street and murders someone for their money that they are killing in the name of their religion, but the fact remains that more people have died at the hands of those people who fly the banner of religion than those who are atheist.

I just don't see how you can possibly claim that atheists have killed more people when A. They haven't, and B. Even if they had, not a single one (well, may be a bit of an overstatement, as I'm sure some crazy man has killed for atheism before, but nothing significant) has killed in the name of atheism, whereas people have killed in the name of religion and god countless times.

I hate it when people try to glorify there religon by doing things like this. *sighs*
Look Super Jesus, Athiesm dosen't tell people to kill, Christianity does. Christianity started wars, racism, slavery and famin. Just own and up and stop trying to gloat.

"If you read history you learn that God is one of the leading causes of death."
-George Carlin

Point me to 1 war over religion..

Hard time finding a real one isnt it?

All wars are fought over resources, money and power add something if i missed it here.

Religion is just a excuse.

Originally Posted by Zauriel

Well, it may not follow that atheists killed more people, therefore God exists; however, it could follow that the body count of Christianity does not even approach the numbers committed under regimes with an atheistic ideology. I don't believe atheism teaches genocide, but the facts show that there were more deaths in places where religion was stamped out rather than where religion was strong.

How the the Papal State collaborated with fascism in the Balkans

Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Crimes of Christianity - Contents


Looks about even to me.

And then there's that whole "Bible" thing where God is killing people left, right & center for no real apparent reason...

Originally Posted by Tomcat_ha

Point me to 1 war over religion..

Hard time finding a real one isnt it?

All wars are fought over resources, money and power add something if i missed it here.

Religion is just a excuse.

Are you kidding? ever hear of the crusades? The inquisition? The French Wars of Religion? Muslim conquests? Reconquista?

Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK

I can defiantly claim the number of deaths in the Inquisition defiantly outweigh 1000, that number is a laughable figure. The Inquisition not only slaughter and drained the region of the Jews and Moors, they tortured most of their victims.

And I'm just talking the Spanish Inquisition, the foul hand of the Catholic Church reached further then that, and in many cases caused bloody revolts and wars through acts of 'Excommunication'.

The Pope even showed his willingness to feed young men into the meatgrinder as he sent them off to reclaim the 'holy land' while in fact all he was trying to do was get them killed so he could maintain power back home while they died in some foreign trek.

You're gonna need a source for that.

Originally Posted by BEHIND THE MASK

The Regimes of Stalin and Mao however never commited attrocities in the name of Atheism... They were done by mad men much like Hitler, who it could be argued the Holocaust was caused by religion, or more so ones hate for religion. However, Religious acts have always been commited in the name of god.

The Holocaust was racially motivated, not religiously. I don't know of any large formal Christian group that seeks to wipe out our spiritual forefathers (the Jews). There are some hate groups who seek the destruction of the Jews for killing Jesus, but those number in the hundreds, at the most.

Religion has in many instances supported murder... Islam, though a respectable religion, has on instances in the Koran called for the death of the infedels. Its been some time since I read through the Bible but Im sure that there are instances in their as well.

You're sure that the Bible calls for the death of infidels, but cannot quote a scripture stating such......mmmmm, yeah. That's based on your faith in the Bible being evil, and it's not really based on fact; that is, unless you could back that up.

Originally Posted by Aralith

Even if it were true that more people had been killed by atheists then by theists, you're missing the point. No one kills in the name of atheism, whereas people kill in the name of religion all the time. Even Stalin didn't kill because of atheism. While it was a heavy influence on who he killed, his true motive for killing was Communism.

That's...kinda why I wanted people to read the first post, because I never stated that atheism teaches genocide. I don't believe that, but the facts show that the death tolls were higher in places where religion was outlawed.

Besides, the idea of Communism is intentionally anti-religious.

Also, care to explain how atheists, only making up 2.35% of the world's religions today let alone how small that number was hundreds of years ago (Source), can possibly be responsible for more deaths than theists? It just seems to be a technical impossibility to me. If there are 2.35% atheists, and 11.92% that are non-religious, that leaves us with 85.73% religious people.

2.35% out of 6 billion is still a lot of people. Also, don't for get about the non-religious (a different group) who are at about 14%, or something.

So, there are way more theists than atheists, therefore it's far more likely that more people have died at the hands of theists than atheists. Now, I'm certainly not saying that when a Christian (not trying to say anything here, I just picked a religion for this one) goes out on the street and murders someone for their money that they are killing in the name of their religion, but the fact remains that more people have died at the hands of those people who fly the banner of religion than those who are atheist.

I don't think that logically follows. If I kill someone as a Christian, it need not follow that I am doing it because of my Christian beliefs (since Christianity teaches otherwise anyways), exactly how it doesn't follow that you would be killing in the name of atheism if you in fact murdered someone while being an atheist.

I just don't see how you can possibly claim that atheists have killed more people when A. They haven't, and B. Even if they had, not a single one (well, may be a bit of an overstatement, as I'm sure some crazy man has killed for atheism before, but nothing significant) has killed in the name of atheism, whereas people have killed in the name of religion and god countless times.

But that's just not what the facts show.

Originally Posted by Phazon goron

I hate it when people try to glorify there religon by doing things like this. *sighs*
Look Super Jesus, Athiesm dosen't tell people to kill, Christianity does. Christianity started wars, racism, slavery and famin. Just own and up and stop trying to gloat.

I never stated that atheism "tells people to kill". Read the first post.

Also, I'm not trying to downplay these horrible crimes, I'm just stating that the numbers don't add up to religion being "the greatest murderer of all time". I doubt George Carlin (God rest his soul ) is an authority on the subject.

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

How the the Papal State collaborated with fascism in the Balkans

I don't think it's fair to have the papacy to represent all of Christianity, especially Protestant Christianity.

Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's the death toll?

Crimes of Christianity - Contents

What's the death toll?

Looks about even to me.

I doubt it.

And then there's that whole "Bible" thing where God is killing people left, right & center for no real apparent reason...

Sub...stan...tiation?

Originally Posted by Zauriel

You're gonna need a source for that.

Oh come on, it's common knowledge that the Inquisition have definitely killed more than one thousand people in their reign of terror. And it's common knowledge that they tortured many of those before their deaths. You want quick source, look up the Spanish Inquisition on Wikipedia, that'll give you plenty of citations.