Did Adam have nipples?

Okay, now that I have gotten your attention, I shall be brief and make a few points regarding the concept of original sin, or a series of ramblings judging by the amount I have drunk this afternoon and of the site where I saw these interesting arguments. First off, the age old question arises of whose fault it is that evil and sin has entered the world. A lot of people would say Eve's, or perhaps Satan's, and I did see a good thread regarding this that was closed recently, but there were a few points that I wanted to make myself on this matter.

Since everyone knows the story of Adam and Eve, I have no need to explain, but when you actually think about this story, you realize that Adam and Eve are a very special case (of course, if you take the story literally, that is, but let us continue anyhow). Look at it this way. Usually, people like you and me are born as babies, and we know absolutely nothing from the moment we are born. We have to learn our native language, culture, rules, laws, history, and all the rest from our parents and peers over the course of many years, from the cradle to the grave. Adam, on the other hand, is created from the dust of the earth, and Eve is shaped afterwards from his rib. Like the snowmen children of the snow build, they "came to life one day" and the instant that he is created in the Bible, Adam is an adult who can speak and think.

This raises a number of interesting questions about Adam's state of mind, though. Where did Adam's initial language come from? Where did Adam get his knowledge of how to eat, how to drink, how to bathe, how to walk? Where did Adam learn how to respond in conversation, how to be polite and how to interact with others? Normally a parent teaches all of these social skills as well, but God must have pre-programmed all of these into Adam's head, for how could he have learned otherwise?

Another question would be to know how old was Adam when mentioned within the bible? Did God pre-program him at the level of a 5-year-old? A 10-year-old? A teenager or a twenty-year old something? A middle-aged man or even a senior citizen? The Bible doesn't say, but it is an important question nonetheless. If God has pre-programmed Adam at the level of a five-year-old, or even a teenager, then it would be hard to get too mad at Adam for making a mistake. Five-year-olds and teens make mistakes all the time -- because that's how they learn, and their attention and reasoning spans are vastly different compared to those around the levels of people of older ages.

On the other hand, if God has pre-programmed Adam at the level of a twenty-year old something, then Adam's entire world view, attitude, moral code, personal attitude and so on have already been pre-set by God.

The point is simple: God directly controlled every single thought in Adam's (and Eve's) head through this initial programming.

So the ultimate question is, why should God surprised in any way by the events that unfold in the garden, and why is there any need to punish mankind at all? Since God is the one who created and pre-programmed all of the actors, God already made all of the decisions on what would happen in Eden. Of course, God programmed it all to happen. God can see the full swathe of history -- billions of years forward and backward down to the atomic level, as that is what omniscience is all about. God created Adam and Eve, pre-programmed the two, as well as Satan, so God knows exactly what Adam, Eve and the serpent will do together and by making the world as he did, doomed them from the very beginning.

Also, Adam could not have "sinned." For one thing, Adam would have no way to know what a sin, or what right and wrong even was until he ate the fruit, and taking these previous thoughts into account, he also had no control whatsoever over what he did and therefore it was not a "sin" to act that way.

So then what happened in the end was that God then banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, so that they and all their offspring can begin their sentences of toil, pain, suffering and death. This is mankind's first real encounter with the all-knowing, all-loving God of the universe, and not a very pleasant one at that either. Still people believe that these were the wise actions of a loving, benevolent creator, but think about it if you will. Logically this time.

Coo!

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

Okay, now that I have gotten your attention, I shall be brief and make a few points regarding the concept of original sin, or a series of ramblings judging by the amount I have drunk this afternoon and of the site where I saw these interesting arguments. First off, the age old question arises of whose fault it is that evil and sin has entered the world. A lot of people would say Eve's, or perhaps Satan's, and I did see a good thread regarding this that was closed recently, but there were a few points that I wanted to make myself on this matter.

Yes, it was Satan's. Eve was also at fault, and so was Adam, but Satan was the grand mastermind.

Another question would be to know how old was Adam when mentioned within the bible? Did God pre-program him at the level of a 5-year-old? A 10-year-old? A teenager or a twenty-year old something? A middle-aged man or even a senior citizen? The Bible doesn't say, but it is an important question nonetheless. If God has pre-programmed Adam at the level of a five-year-old, or even a teenager, then it would be hard to get too mad at Adam for making a mistake. Five-year-olds and teens make mistakes all the time -- because that's how they learn, and their attention and reasoning spans are vastly different compared to those around the levels of people of older ages.

He was probably programmed as a 20 year old or something. An adult. Still, we aren't robots, so we weren't really "programmed".

On the other hand, if God has pre-programmed Adam at the level of a twenty-year old something, then Adam's entire world view, attitude, moral code, personal attitude and so on have already been pre-set by God.

Or maybe just the knowledge about whatever he'd need. Adam's opinions would be his own.

The point is simple: God directly controlled every single thought in Adam's (and Eve's) head through this initial programming.

Why? You just jump to this point out of nowhere. You say "God put knowledge into Adam's head" and then jump to "God put knowledge, opinions, view of the world, and ever choice Adam will ever make." Explain this?

So the ultimate question is, why should God surprised in any way by the events that unfold in the garden, and why is there any need to punish mankind at all?

He wasn't.

Since God is the one who created and pre-programmed all of the actors, God already made all of the decisions on what would happen in Eden. Of course, God programmed it all to happen.

Not necessarily. God knew what would happen when He "programmed" them, but it was not His fault at all.

God can see the full swathe of history -- billions of years forward and backward down to the atomic level, as that is what omniscience is all about. God created Adam and Eve, pre-programmed the two, as well as Satan, so God knows exactly what Adam, Eve and the serpent will do together and by making the world as he did, doomed them from the very beginning.

Wrong, again. This is no excuse and does not justify the acts of Adam, or Satan, or Eve.

Also, Adam could not have "sinned." For one thing, Adam would have no way to know what a sin, or what right and wrong even was until he ate the fruit, and taking these previous thoughts into account, he also had no control whatsoever over what he did and therefore it was not a "sin" to act that way.

A sin is basically an act against God, and God warned him that if he'd eat from the tree, he'd surely die. That's what a sin is, you know. An act against God of which death is the wage.

So then what happened in the end was that God then banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, so that they and all their offspring can begin their sentences of toil, pain, suffering and death. This is mankind's first real encounter with the all-knowing, all-loving God of the universe, and not a very pleasant one at that either. Still people believe that these were the wise actions of a loving, benevolent creator, but think about it if you will. Logically this time.

God not immediately killing them, ending the human race for good, was a great act of mercy. Instead of killing off a race that is evil, He set it up that at least a few people would repent of their evils and somewhat redeem a fallen race.

Coo!

That site is ridiculous. It knows nothing of Christianity.

Originally Posted by Surio

Or maybe just the knowledge about whatever he'd need. Adam's opinions would be his own.

That doesn't follow, actually.

Who you are is shaped by what you've lived through.

For Adam to be created as a 20-year old then God would need to do that shaping for him.

Why? You just jump to this point out of nowhere. You say "God put knowledge into Adam's head" and then jump to "God put knowledge, opinions, view of the world, and ever choice Adam will ever make." Explain this?

God must've put everything Adam knew into Adam's head.

As such, he must've known how Adam would react to every conceivable situation, yet still made him the way he did.

He wasn't.

You ignored the 2nd part, though.

Not necessarily. God knew what would happen when He "programmed" them, but it was not His fault at all.

What?

If I write a computer virus, it's my fault if it does something wrong, yes?

That's exactly the same as this pre-programming God did of Adam.

Wrong, again. This is no excuse and does not justify the acts of Adam, or Satan, or Eve.

...God, quite literally, made them do what they did. How is it their fault?

How does this article coincide with the topic question asking if Adam had nipples? O.o

Originally Posted by GDwarf

...God, quite literally, made them do what they did. How is it their fault?

In all fairness, everyone is determined to do what they do by how the universe shaped them. Every "choice" a person makes is made by the content of their brain, which was not chosen by them. Every person in a jail right now is innocent in the same way Adam was.

No, Adam did not have nipples. Starting at conception and until ~14 weeks, all mammalian fetuses develop the same, as the female sex is the developmental default. After ~14 weeks, testosterone levels will kick in for those who develop into males. Although the testosterone will develop male reproductive organs, as well as making a few other changes, it does not get rid of the nipples.

Adam however, was not conceived or born. He was created by God [sic], and it was God who made him male from the get go. He never would have begun developing female mammalian attributes, and thus, never would have developed or had nipples.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

That doesn't follow, actually.

Who you are is shaped by what you've lived through.

For Adam to be created as a 20-year old then God would need to do that shaping for him.

Perhaps. But when He made Adam, Adam was good.

God must've put everything Adam knew into Adam's head.

As such, he must've known how Adam would react to every conceivable situation, yet still made him the way he did.

Yeah, and He also knew that Adam would sin. Does it make it His fault?

You ignored the 2nd part, though.

Right, mah bad. The wage of sin is death, so yeah. That's why there had to be punishment.

What?

If I write a computer virus, it's my fault if it does something wrong, yes?

That's exactly the same as this pre-programming God did of Adam.

Actually, this doesn't work very well, because people don't work like viruses. Regardless, it's more like this: If God created a computer program that gained intelligence and said "I want to be like my creator" and then does it's best to take on it's creator, which is impossible, and the creator dragged the program into the recycle bin. This program then crawls up the recycle bin, and leaves it, onto the desktop, where it finds another good program. It then goes into the programming of this other program and corrupts it, and so, all other programs that are created from this program are also corrupt, so the creator just drags them all into the recycle bin and then on judgment day hits "empty recycle bin".

...God, quite literally, made them do what they did. How is it their fault?

God did not make them do anything. They did it of their own free will.

God gave Adam and Eve merely the basic knowledge, understanding, logic, etc. of a human. He also gave them free will though. It was their free choice to eat the forbidden fruit -- they were tempted by Satan to do so. But in the end, their decision was under their own actions. No one forced them to do so.

They were told to not do one simple thing, yet they did it anyways.

Originally Posted by Surio

Actually, this doesn't work very well, because people don't work like viruses.

The difference is merely one of scale.

God knew that if he made Adam the way he did, that Adam would sin. Yet he made him that way regardless.

Regardless, it's more like this: If God created a computer program that gained intelligence and said "I want to be like my creator" and then does it's best to take on it's creator, which is impossible, and the creator dragged the program into the recycle bin.

Not at all.

It's as if God made a program that would specifically try to take him on, and then punished it for doing so.

You're over-anthropomorphizing God. He is omniscient, he knows the outcome of everything before he does it. If something happens he must have wanted it to happen exactly that way and, as such, must've caused it to happen that way by setting up the initial universe the way he did.

God did not make them do anything. They did it of their own free will.

Indeed? They had about as much choice as we have about falling when dropped out of an airplane.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

God gave Adam and Eve merely the basic knowledge, understanding, logic, etc. of a human. He also gave them free will though. It was their free choice to eat the forbidden fruit -- they were tempted by Satan to do so. But in the end, their decision was under their own actions. No one forced them to do so.

They were told to not do one simple thing, yet they did it anyways.

Indeed, something which God knew they'd do when he made them the way he did. Yet he still made them that way, rather then slightly tweaking something somewhere so that it wouldn't happen.

Even if you don't agree that an omnipotent being could make a creature with free will that is incapable of sin, you must agree that God had no reason to, say, put the tree in the garden, or allow Satan into the garden, or, or, or...

Originally Posted by Dark Link

God gave Adam and Eve merely the basic knowledge, understanding, logic, etc. of a human. He also gave them free will though. It was their free choice to eat the forbidden fruit -- they were tempted by Satan to do so. But in the end, their decision was under their own actions. No one forced them to do so.

They were told to not do one simple thing, yet they did it anyways.

Everyone kind of ignored Dark Link. FREE CHOICE is what G-d gave adam and Eve. SO if he knew they'd sin, how is it there fault?

"How do we have free choice, If G-d know everything that has and will happen?", is what you're really asking.

G-d is removed from a concept of time. So he DOES know everything that will happen. But that doesn't mean you don't have free choice. Imagine watching a life you've lived over again. You know exactly what you're going to do, but that does not change the fact that, at the time you did it, you used free choice.

That is how G-d knows what you will do, without revoking free choice. He just never had to live the life you did before knowing what you'd do, because he is disconnected from time.

Originally Posted by Duuuudeman

Everyone kind of ignored Dark Link. FREE CHOICE is what G-d gave adam and Eve. SO if he knew they'd sin, how is it there fault?

"How do we have free choice, If G-d know everything that has and will happen?", is what you're really asking.

Nope, that's another issue.

I'm saying: God knew everything.

That means he must've known what Adam would do if he created the world exactly as he did.

Yet he created it that way anyways.

The obvious conclusion is that he wanted Adam to eat the fruit.

G-d is removed from a concept of time. So he DOES know everything that will happen. But that doesn't mean you don't have free choice. Imagine watching a life you've lived over again. You know exactly what you're going to do, but that does not change the fact that, at the time you did it, you used free choice.

This is debatable, but this isn't the thread to debate it in, as it's peripheral, at best, to the issue.

Originally Posted by Duo

No, Adam did not have nipples. Starting at conception and until ~14 weeks, all mammalian fetuses develop the same, as the female sex is the developmental default. After ~14 weeks, testosterone levels will kick in for those who develop into males. Although the testosterone will develop male reproductive organs, as well as making a few other changes, it does not get rid of the nipples.

Adam however, was not conceived or born. He was created by God [sic], and it was God who made him male from the get go. He never would have begun developing female mammalian attributes, and thus, never would have developed or had nipples.

Nipples aren't the only feature of the human body that are devolped after conception though. In fact, by your logic, Adam would not be able to exist period, because he never could have developed any body parts, let alone nipples. So, if everything about Adam was designed and made by God, then God could have very easily designed Adam with nipples. Whether he did or not, only God knows.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Nope, that's another issue.

I'm saying: God knew everything.

That means he must've known what Adam would do if he created the world exactly as he did.

Yet he created it that way anyways.

The obvious conclusion is that he wanted Adam to eat the fruit.

God doesn't act on His foreknowledge. What came to be, came to be. God did not make it that way, it was merely life enacting its course and the decision of free will. God could have done something to change the outcome, but then the concept of free will would be nonexistent. He even commanded Adam and Eve not eat from the tree, yet they deliberately disobeyed Him anyways.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

God doesn't act on His foreknowledge.

Why not?

That also means that he is incapable of any sort of plan. He must, in fact, be "winging it".

God could have done something to change the outcome, but then the concept of free will would be nonexistent. He even commanded Adam and Eve not eat from the tree, yet they deliberately disobeyed Him anyways.

I'm going to say that God could, in fact, have stopped it from happening without limiting free will.

He is, in fact, omnipotent. So, as defined, he can do anything.

so we weren't really "programmed".

There is information encoded in our genes, so in a sense we kind of are programmed

Originally Posted by GDwarf

The difference is merely one of scale.

God knew that if he made Adam the way he did, that Adam would sin. Yet he made him that way regardless.

"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"" -Romans 9:20
The answer to this question is no. No you can not ask Him "why did you make me like this?" Because:

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." -Romans 8:28

Not at all.

It's as if God made a program that would specifically try to take him on, and then punished it for doing so.

I think I've had a change in opinion, maybe. Perhaps God created Adam that Adam sin (Adam is still at fault, however, because it was still his choice to sin, or maybe satan's fault, but not God's) for the sole purpose of glorifying Himself. Most, if not all that He ever does is so He can glorify Himself.

With His angels, I would think He glorifies Himself this way: "I created a perfect type of people, they never sin, and never turn away, and if they do, they are sent to hell"

With a fallen race, I'd imagine it'd go like this: "I let (or made, by your logic) a race fall, and instead of immediately killing them, as I should have, I will now let them live a little longer, and let them have babies, and among these babies, I will raise up people who I will use to redeem this fallen race, even if just a little. Why? Because I am loving and merciful."
(Not that God ever said that. I wouldn't want to put words in His mouth. He might get angry.)

You're over-anthropomorphizing God. He is omniscient, he knows the outcome of everything before he does it. If something happens he must have wanted it to happen exactly that way and, as such, must've caused it to happen that way by setting up the initial universe the way he did.

Yes, and He also knew who'd be going to hell and He chose who'd be saved from the very beginning of the world.

Indeed? They had about as much choice as we have about falling when dropped out of an airplane.

Not really. Adam was perfectly capable of saying no to Eve.

Indeed, something which God knew they'd do when he made them the way he did. Yet he still made them that way, rather then slightly tweaking something somewhere so that it wouldn't happen.

..Okay.

Even if you don't agree that an omnipotent being could make a creature with free will that is incapable of sin, you must agree that God had no reason to, say, put the tree in the garden, or allow Satan into the garden, or, or, or...

Yes, I do think He could have done all that. He could also make a creature with free will that is incapable of sin.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Nope, that's another issue.
This is debatable, but this isn't the thread to debate it in, as it's peripheral, at best, to the issue.

It's not at all though. G-d made Adam with free choice. He did know that Adam would eat from the fruit, but that does not mean that Adam did not have free choice when he decided to. G-d DID make an evil inclination. Otherwise Adam wouldn't do anything wrong.

So he created Adam with the potential to fail, but also to succeed. Though He knew Adam would fail, Adam HAD the free choice. G-d made him with the potential to be thrown out of the Garden, OR to remain there forever. That's how man was created. With choice between right and wrong and respective consequences.