Creationism vs. Evolution

Originally Posted by Rhalen

Greek

Oh, ha.

Prove it

Prove what exactly? Oh, prove that the bible isn't credible just because it was perfectly translated? Well, you don't believe in the Koran, do you? I'm not claiming it's not non-fiction, I'm just saying I personally need more evidence than a bunch of people translated it properly.

Prove it wrong I dare you to discredit the Bible.

I think I asked you to prove to me the non-fiction aspect of the bible. I really can't prove that you can prove it, can I? I mean, that's all up to you. That's how arguments work. I antagonize you to do something, you do it, I counter it, and then we end up hating each other and wanting to punch the blatantly ignorant opponent in the face. At least, that's how it went last time I actively participated in an argument.

One by one or in a big pile?

You have yet to give me reason to burn them, champ.

Alright, you have fun down there.

Doesn't the bible say something about not acting like god and damning others? Repent, or something.

Originally Posted by Rhalen

The Red Sea or the Reed Sea? > The Good News : May/June 1997
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Yeah, see that's not a credible source at all. Find me something NOT published by a biased christian magazine (like a journal of archaeology or linguistics, something academic) and I'll take you seriously because right now you're just another raving lunatic who can't stand questions.

Oh and your "article" is merely an opinion piece that cites absolutely zero sources other than the source in question. Again, circular reasoning.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Indeed? I'd love a source for that.

A new Torah must be copied letter by letter from a Torah template, called the Tikkun. There must be 304,805 letters, Mr. Yerman said, “not 304,806, or 304,804, and there can be no mistakes.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/12/nyregion/12torah.html

In addition, what about when it was first written? At that point the stories had been passed down orally for many generations. (Something on the order of 30 of 'em).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/66
See? When it comes to reproduction of ancient texts, I know what I'm talking about.

Now, I'm assuming you've played the game "telephone"; you get a bunch of people to sit in a circle and someone whispers a phrase to one of them. They then whisper it to the next person, who then whispers it to the next, and so-on. At the end the final person says what phrase they heard.

That final phrase is never the same as the starting one.

Not so fast. It is entirely possible that the correct phrase is heard every time.

Now, obviously the stories would be passed down in a less haphazard way, but you're still going to get errors. People hear things wrong, remember things wrong, alter stories to fit the current political or social climate, etc.

Can you prove any of this? This all seems to be a bunch of assumptions.

By way of example: Try reading a book of Greek myths sometime. Then, read any other collection of them. They won't agree on what happened in any story. They'll be close, yes, but names, places, times, and events will all change.

Yeah, I'm well versed in various myths. I realize they aren't always the most accurate, but we do actually have one book written by... I forgot which author, but it holds a great deal of myths. Also, minor alterations really aren't a cause for concern. Names you mentioned: are rarely changed (unless you go between Greek and Roman) Places are often mythical to begin with Events I have never seen changed.

Those myths were just as important to the Greeks as the Bible was to the Jews,

Greeks seem to me to have been more concerned with their social order and expansion rather than their religion.

and were around for roughly the same amount of time before being written down. Yet they can't agree at all.

Greece also had a good deal more land than the Jews. They encompassed multiple nations. The Jewish were one race in one area.

Why should the Bible be any different?

Smaller area, less people, more important to the people

To continue this: look at Greek laws, rather than religous texts. These I believe are rather consistant, are they not? (granted since each city has its own set of laws it's hard to tell) But those were well preserved were they not? Jewish Law was contained in their religous scripts, and if you know much anything about the Jewish people, it's that they had a lot of laws.

How accurate, though? And the Dead sea scrolls are still copies of an oral tradition.

See above explanation.

Source?

You need me to site this? Sheesh, I thought it was common knowledge.
Beginners Bible Studies
Scroll down for a bit.

And, again, that doesn't remove the chance for error, merely reduces it somewhat.

If we take all the old texts, compare them, we can find which one has the mistake by which one is different. Then all Bibles reproduced from this one are anulled. I don't see how an error can get passed that we can't trace back, and as such our modern translation of the Bible is accurate.

It's self-contradictory.

Not this argument again! Now, I'm gonna tell all you atheists this once and once only. When taken in context, there is not one part of the Bible that contradicts itself.
I dare you to show me otherwise.

That's one mistake that can't be debunked.

I laugh

You cannot have a book that is 100% correct that disagrees with itself.

I laugh again.

Also, Rahlen, as with Liquid Fire, you need to tone down your posts. This is a debate, not a flame war.

I laugh. I called this one! I knew it would happen. You people go around making groundless statements about the Bible being a load of crap, and I respond, and suddenly I become the villian here! Yup, I saw that one coming a mile away!

For crying out load, Rhalen, grow up! 90% of your arguments seem to be calling people ignorant, saying "Prove it", or making irrrelevant comments that I dare say sound hilarious to you but to everyone else are just decreasing your credabilty with every passing second!

Hello rent a mod, how are you today? Why not actually try arguing rather than criticize my arguing?

There is no way you can say that the Bilbe hasn't suffered some mistranslation or misinterpretation somwhere along its 2 millenium

It's older than that. The Bible didn't start at 0 AD.

And actually, yes there is, yes I can, yes I do.

I also don't see how you can justify ignoring scientific evidence that points to the earth being much older then 10,000 years.

There is evidence to the contrary aswell. I'm still looking for the site I found last year that is elluding me.

Please, enlighten me to your train of thought.

Macro-evolution, abiogenisis, and the big bang are a bunch of crap to me.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know why you are here; you are clearly stubborn about your beliefs, and seem to exist purley to get people to belive the same as you. Be a bit more open minded.

So wait... because I have a firm view on something, I shouldn't defend it? GDwarf aint gonna change his mind but I don't see you telling him to be more open minded.

So, other than POing me, why are you here?

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife. In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV)

And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Ignorance of the Christian doctrine. Perhaps if you actually look into religion you'd understand it better:
Old Testament: God's people=Jews, God struck down the immoral, it was all about law
New Testament: God's people=Everyone who will listen, all about gospel

Now, I could give plenty of scripture verses to explain my point, but you hardly seem worth the effort.

I think I asked you to prove to me the non-fiction aspect of the bible. I really can't prove that you can prove it, can I? I mean, that's all up to you. That's how arguments work. I antagonize you to do something, you do it, I counter it, and then we end up hating each other and wanting to punch the blatantly ignorant opponent in the face. At least, that's how it went last time I actively participated in an argument.

Atleast someone gets it. Anyways, you have to prove that it is fiction before I have to prove it's non-fiction. Otherwise, asking me to prove it is hypocritical.

Originally Posted by Rhalen

Don't ya just love it when people have no clue what they're talking about?

COULD YOU BE ANY MORE IGNORANT!?

Debunked due to ignorance.

*does not care*

Because I'm very tired right now and don't feel like arguing this specific point

you're the second most ignorant person in this thread. (liquid fire's ignorance is nigh untoppable.)

rather than make myself look like some ignorant *******.

Prove it

Prove it wrong I dare you to discredit the Bible.

One by one or in a big pile?

Alright, you have fun down there.

you are just wasting my time.

Can you prove any of this?

I laugh

I laugh again.

I laugh.

Hello rent a mod, how are you today?

Now, I could give plenty of scripture verses to explain my point, but you hardly seem worth the effort.

My point exactly; just a few of the many Rhalen-isms.

Maybe people would take you more seriously if you stopping insulting people and asking people to "prove it" when you can't think of a counter-argument.

Maybe take it as some friendly advice?

There is evidence to the contrary aswell. I'm still looking for the site I found last year that is elluding me.

Despite the above, I am genuinly interesting in seeing this site.

Eviloution is FAKE! Ok? get it through your minds! If evolution is eally true, why dont u see any of it hapening today? why dont you see monkeys turning into humans anymore? THE ANSWER? ITS FAKE! God was the one who created the earth! If u dont belive me and think im some sort of nutjob, read Genises chapter 1 in the Bible. "In the beggining, God created the heavens and the earth." Scientists think the world was created by a big bang because they dont know what else to belive. So belive what Gods word sais please.

Originally Posted by xlr81

Eviloution is FAKE! Ok?

..."eviloution"?

get it through your minds! If evolution is eally true, why dont u see any of it hapening today?

You do. It's been observed many times. And I mean directly observed.

why dont you see monkeys turning into humans anymore?

Monkeys never did turn into humans.

Besides, evolving from a common ancestor into humans took millions of years. We've been watching for about a hundred and fifty.

Scientists think the world was created by a big bang because they dont know what else to belive. So belive what Gods word sais please.

The big bang didn't create the Earth. But then, no one says it did.

Originally Posted by xlr81

Eviloution is FAKE! Ok? get it through your minds! If evolution is eally true, why dont u see any of it hapening today? why dont you see monkeys turning into humans anymore? THE ANSWER? ITS FAKE! God was the one who created the earth! If u dont belive me and think im some sort of nutjob, read Genises chapter 1 in the Bible. "In the beggining, God created the heavens and the earth." Scientists think the world was created by a big bang because they dont know what else to belive. So belive what Gods word sais please.

I'm sorry, but I must address this; indeed, it is making me want to flame up into the very Rhalen quotes I previously critised.

You clearly don't understand the science behind evolution. Some points to remember:

a) There are no species alive today that we developed from. We may have developed from a species akin to primates, but not the same as any species currently on earth.

b) Primates do not spontanously evolve. It is a process that happens over millions of years due to mutations in offspring. Also, because we have technology today, which can fill in human weakness and remove mutations (say, if somone had 6 fingers), there is probally little need for major evolutions anyway.

c) You can hardly call the Bible a source of evidence. I could just say "we are all the dream of a space turtle swimming though mustard". There, I said, that makes it true.

d) You're a nutjob. If you want evidence, I would point to your lack a spelling of grammer.

Please tell me your post was a joke.

PS: OH! Was "Eviloution" supposed to be a pun! I totally didn't get that...

Originally Posted by xlr81

Eviloution is FAKE! Ok? get it through your minds! If evolution is eally true, why dont u see any of it hapening today? why dont you see monkeys turning into humans anymore? THE ANSWER? ITS FAKE! God was the one who created the earth! If u dont belive me and think im some sort of nutjob, read Genises chapter 1 in the Bible. "In the beggining, God created the heavens and the earth." Scientists think the world was created by a big bang because they dont know what else to belive. So belive what Gods word sais please.

You're 12. Right now you don't have the capacity to handle a forum of alleged intelligent conversation such as this. For one, your grammar is atrocious. You're lucky I was able to read your post. Now I will give you simple explanations because you wouldn't understand anything too complex at your current age.

the type of evolution you're thinking of takes from hundreds of thousands to millions of years for anything substantially significant to change. The reasons we don't see monkeys turning into humans is because it takes thosands of generations for such changes to happen, also there needs to be certain factors to aid the evolutionary process: adaptation, change in diet, etc. Simply, it takes too long, but you don't understand that yet and probably can't fathom a thousand years as opposed to millions or billions. It is happening right now, too, if you bother to research.

You also can't use a book such as the bible as evidence without first justifying its claim as fact.

You're acting as if science is trying to prove religions wrong. Science doesn't care bout religion at all. If their conclusions are different from religious text it is due to countless experiments that can be repeated and justified, and if at any time they are proven wrong scientific theory will change accordingly.

I'm going to have to go with creationism. The bible has been proven acurate time and time again, and it even states that many will discredit God, His works, and His people (Jude 1: 17-22, Rev: 22: 7).

The chances that ANY living being or cell could come from a "big bang" is appox. a four followed by 180 zeros. And THEN you would have to explain people have feelings, the ability to reproduce, and a conscience of what's right or wrong (1 John 2: 21). And besides, where would the material to create the "big bang" have come from? It would have had to have started from somewhere.

Now let's take a look at animals. Some of them have to have other species for them to survive, i.e the termite; it eats wood, but there is a parasite living inside it that digests the wood. If the world came into being over billions of years, what are the chances that those two creatures would would evolve at the same time, AND meet each other. Now that's just one example. There are hundreds of others, and that would take WAY to long to explain.

So you could, just maybe, take the easy route and say that there is a God who created everything.

Oh, and xlr81, well said. Mirror Image, you shouldn't make personal attacks over something so small. All that can ever do is hurt people.

Here are some bible verses you can all look up: Gen 1: 1-31, James 1: 17-18, 2 Peter 1:3, John 3: 15-17, Mat 22: 34-40, Rom 3: 28-31.

[quote=Surio;2089077]

Originally Posted by GDwarf

I actually agree here, I think. Well, kind of. I don't, however, think that something can ever become something else. For example: A bacteria can become immune to some anti-bacteria thing, but it still is, and always be, a bacteria, no matter how many billion years pass.



Well, it doesn't use the word dinosaurs, obviously, that term was invented way after. It does, however, talk of dragons and behemoths that are described like brontosauruses and things like that. So we can't say for sure that it doesn't mention dinosaurs.


Perhaps not, but He told people to write what He willed to be written. So, assuming God exists (which I do) then He'd have stepped in if anything extra was added into the Bible/Torah.

I really doubt God told people to write what's in the Bible. Would God really tell people to write something, and then write something else that contradicts the other? And would He really expect human beings to believe that He really told those people to write it when it talks of human beings living to ridiculous ages that go past 500 years old? It is biologically impossible to live that long, especially that long ago as there was less medicine and food then and a generally unhealthier lifestyle. It goes against common sense, and I doubt that something that went against common sense would be the word of God.

[quote=Dolphin;2094036]

Originally Posted by Surio

I really doubt God told people to write what's in the Bible. Would God really tell people to write something, and then write something else that contradicts the other? And would He really expect human beings to believe that He really told those people to write it when it talks of human beings living to ridiculous ages that go past 500 years old? It is biologically impossible to live that long, especially that long ago as there was less medicine and food then and a generally unhealthier lifestyle. It goes against common sense, and I doubt that something that went against common sense would be the word of God.

Show me a Biblical contradiction. Show me When taken in context (something so many people are ready not to do) nothing in the Bible is self contradicting.

I love how you all say "The Bible contradicts itself" When you've probably never actually cracked open a Bible within a recent amount of time, or don't even bother to back yourselves up.

As to people living to be 500: Ever hear of the water canopy theory?

Originally Posted by Alter

I'm going to have to go with creationism. The bible has been proven acurate time and time again, and it even states that many will discredit God, His works, and His people (Jude 1: 17-22, Rev: 22: 7).

That's hardly an astounding prediction. Made, as it was, after the Jews had been persecuted.

Anyways, I'd love to see some specific prophesies from the Bible that are correct.

Not vague stuff, either. Give me a prophecy about something specific that has, beyond any doubt, occured.

The chances that ANY living being or cell could come from a "big bang" is appox. a four followed by 180 zeros.

Look: I know it's easy to just go to Answers in Genesis or Uncommon Dissent or something and just quote what they say, but they have, in fact, got it wrong.

The big bang did not create life; no one ever said it did.

In addition, where did you get that number from? I suspect you (or rather, your source) pulled it out of thin air.

And THEN you would have to explain people have feelings, the ability to reproduce, and a conscience of what's right or wrong (1 John 2: 21).

All of those are quite easy to explain, actually.

In fact, you have the harder job, of explaining why brain damage alters a person's personality, if that's really stored in their soul.

And besides, where would the material to create the "big bang" have come from? It would have had to have started from somewhere.

No, it wouldn't