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View Poll Results: What do you think about George W. Bush?
Worst president EVER! 47 35.88%
He's pretty lousy 37 28.24%
Nothing phenominal, but enough to gain my respect as president 31 23.66%
A wonderful man and a great president 8 6.11%
Who cares? 8 6.11%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-07-2008, 06:21 PM
Noscreenname United_States Noscreenname is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogmios22188 View Post
They used intelligence that they knew to be faulty. That means, at best, they were hoping for them to be true or, at worst, they were outright lying. Either way is bad.
How should you know that they knew the intelligence to be faulty? What makes you think this?
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  #102 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-07-2008, 06:23 PM
Ogmios22188 United_States Ogmios22188 is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames of Valor View Post
You are trying so hard to put words in my mouth.

Did I say anything about Ronald Reagan? No, I said Jimmy Carter is a fool.
No, you didn't say that, but I know you're a fan of Reagan and would've said that if given more time.

And you actually said Jimmy Carter was a pussy for doing nothing. You were wrong.
Quote:
Ogmios, did I EVER say that? No I didn't why do you insist to push this upon me. No it is not okay for ANY president to lie, ever. I have no concrete ethics? You're the one who refuses to just say, "You are right, Bill Clinton lied, to everyone." YOu can tack on why you think Bush lied instead of psuhing on me, some stupid comparison that does not relate to the things I am addressing.
Actually, I never said Clinton didn't lie. I'm just not the one who plays favorites while pretending I actually have a thought-out, logical stance.
Quote:
Can you proove they knew? Or are you doing what you claimed I am?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In the initial stages of the war on terror, the Central Intelligence Agency, under George Tenet, was rising to prominence as the lead agency in the Afghanistan war. But when Tenet insisted in his personal meetings with President Bush that there was no connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq, Vice-President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld initiated a secret program to re-examine the evidence and marginalize the CIA and Tenet. The questionable intelligence acquired by this secret program was "stovepiped" to Cheney and presented to the public. In some cases, Cheney’s office would leak the intelligence to news correspondents, who would in turn cover it in such outlets such as The New York Times. Cheney would subsequently appear on the Sunday political television talk shows to discuss the intelligence, referencing The New York Times as the source to give it credence.[72]

In late February 2002, the CIA sent former Ambassador Joseph Wilson to investigate dubious claims about Iraq's attempted purchase of yellowcake uranium from Niger. Wilson returned and informed the CIA that reports of yellowcake sales to Iraq were "unequivocally wrong." The Bush administration, however, continued to allege Iraq's attempts to obtain yellowcake were a justification for military action - most prominently in the January, 2003 State of the Union address when President Bush said that Iraq had sought uranium, citing British intelligence sources.[73] In response, Wilson wrote a critical The New York Times op-ed piece in June 2003 stating that he had personally investigated claims of yellowcake purchases and believed them to be fraudulent. Wilson's report did not clarify the matter for analysts, but they found it interesting that the former Nigerien Prime Minister said an Iraqi delegation had visited Niger for what he believed was to discuss uranium sales.[74] Shortly after Wilson's op-ed, the identity of Wilson's wife, undercover CIA analyst Valerie Plame, was revealed in a column by Robert Novak. Since it is a felony to reveal the identity of a CIA agent Novak's column launched an investigation by the Justice Department into the source of the leak. In March, 2007, Dick Cheney’s Chief of Staff I. Lewis 'Scooter' Libby was convicted of perjury in the Plame leak investigation. The source of the leak was found to be former deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage, who was never charged with the crime.[75]

On May 1, 2005 the "Downing Street memo" was published in The Sunday Times. It contained an overview of a secret July 23, 2002 meeting among UK Labour government, defense, and intelligence figures who discussed the build-up to the Iraq war — including direct references to classified U.S. policy of the time. The memo stated, "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."[76]

On September 18, 2002, George Tenet briefed Bush that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. Bush dismissed this top-secret intelligence from Saddam's inner circle which was approved by two senior CIA officers, but it turned out to be completely accurate. The information was never shared with Congress or even CIA agents examining whether Saddam had such weapons.[77] The CIA had contacted Saddam Hussein's foreign minister, Naji Sabri, who was being paid by the French as an agent. Sabri informed them that Saddam had ambitions for a nuclear program but that it was not active, and that no biological weapons were being produced or stockpiled, although research was underway.[78] The U.S. obtained three subsequent human intelligence reports indicating that Saddam had authorized the use of chemical weapons in the event of war.[79]

In September 2002, the Bush administration said attempts by Iraq to acquire thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes pointed to a clandestine program to make enriched uranium for nuclear bombs. Iraq was not permitted to import such tubes under the U.N. monitoring plan. [80]This view was supported by the CIA and DIA but opposed by the Department of Energy (DOE) and INR which was significant because the DOE was the only department in the United States government that had expertise in gas centrifuges and nuclear weapons programs. All agencies believed the tubes could be used in a centrifuge program but the latter two argued that they were poorly suited to do so.[81] An effort by the DOE to change Powell's comments before his UN appearance was rebuffed by the administration.[82][83] Indeed, Colin Powell, in his address to the U.N. Security Council just prior to the war, made reference to the aluminum tubes. But a report released by the Institute for Science and International Security in 2002 reported that it was highly unlikely that the tubes could be used to enrich uranium. Powell later admitted he had presented an inaccurate case to the United Nations on Iraqi weapons, and the intelligence he was relying on was, in some cases, "deliberately misleading."[84][85][86]

Between September, 2002 and June, 2003, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz created a Pentagon unit known as the Office of Special Plans (OSP), headed by Douglas Feith. It was created to supply senior Bush administration officials with raw intelligence pertaining to Iraq, unvetted by intelligence analysts, and circumventing traditional intelligence gathering operations by the CIA. One former CIA officer described the OSP as dangerous for U.S. national security and a threat to world peace, and that it lied and manipulated intelligence to further its agenda of removing Saddam Hussein. He described it as a group of ideologues with pre-determined notions of truth and reality, taking bits of intelligence to support their agenda and ignoring anything contrary.[87] Subsequently, in 2008, the nonpartisan Center for Public Integrity has enumerated a total of 935 false statements made by George Bush and six other top members of his administration in a carefully launched campaign of misinformation during the two year period following 9-11, in order to rally support for the invasion of Iraq.[88][89]
Seems like they knew.
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  #103 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-07-2008, 09:27 PM
Flames of Valor Flames of Valor is a male United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogmios22188 View Post
No, you didn't say that, but I know you're a fan of Reagan and would've said that if given more time.
You sure do have me read like a book don't you?

Quote:
And you actually said Jimmy Carter was a pussy for doing nothing. You were wrong.
Wrong in what ways. He didn't do anything, even though soldiers lives were at risk and he could easily have done something about it. He is either stupid of a wuss, which is it?

Quote:
Actually, I never said Clinton didn't lie. I'm just not the one who plays favorites while pretending I actually have a thought-out, logical stance.
But you never said he did. And he did. Who am I playing favorites with? I am showing how much worse other presidents can be and it isn't hard to see that.


Quote:
Seems like they knew.
For this subject may I have a source other than Wikipedia please?
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  #104 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-07-2008, 09:46 PM
Ogmios22188 United_States Ogmios22188 is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames of Valor
Wrong in what ways. He didn't do anything, even though soldiers lives were at risk and he could easily have done something about it. He is either stupid of a wuss, which is it?
Are you serious? The article I posted explained, in detail, exactly what President Carter did.
Quote:
But you never said he did. And he did. Who am I playing favorites with? I am showing how much worse other presidents can be and it isn't hard to see that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogmios22188
So, it's not okay for Clinton to lie, but it is for Bush?
I'd say that's an acknowledgement. And who's worse, the President who lied under oath about getting a blow job, or the President who, if not outright lying, deliberately misled the American public in regards to a situation which has cost thousands of lives and trillions of dollars?
Quote:
For this subject may I have a source other than Wikipedia please?
That article has numerous citations.

Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What I posted was from the area entitled "Alleged weapons of mass destruction."
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  #105 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-08-2008, 02:22 PM
Noscreenname United_States Noscreenname is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogmios22188 View Post
Seems like they knew.
Seems like some people were telling them the information wasn't true, and they simply weren't taking their words for it. In other words, being mistaken. Not lying.
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  #106 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-08-2008, 03:05 PM
Ogmios22188 United_States Ogmios22188 is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noscreenname View Post
Seems like some people were telling them the information wasn't true, and they simply weren't taking their words for it. In other words, being mistaken. Not lying.
Um, if the people who are qualified to tell you the information is wrong tell you that it's wrong and you don't share this information with Congress, yet make a policy of attempting to use or fabricate the evidence and intelligence around the foreign policy you already had in mind, and then compromise a CIA agent's identity because her husband attempted to thwart your plans, then yeah, I'd say you're lying.
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  #107 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-08-2008, 03:08 PM
Nox Nox is a male United States Nox is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Wait, why are we debating about past presidents? Carter did nothing and all Clinton did was pork some fat chick, which I think shouldn't even be the country's business on what the president does in his personal time.

Back on track, I am going to say that Bush may be horrible but he certainly isn't the worst president. I may respect him for the fact that he makes important decisions, its just the fact he makes horrible decisions and doesn't learn from them.
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  #108 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-11-2008, 08:42 AM
PeterGriffin PeterGriffin is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

George bush isn't a bad man, nor is he stupid. He was a good president for the first 5 years.
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  #109 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-11-2008, 11:01 AM
Flames of Valor Flames of Valor is a male United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Nox View Post
Wait, why are we debating about past presidents? Carter did nothing and all Clinton did was pork some fat chick, which I think shouldn't even be the country's business on what the president does in his personal time.
Your right, but when you lie to the entire country about it, it changes.
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  #110 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-11-2008, 12:36 PM
Ogmios22188 United_States Ogmios22188 is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Flames of Valor View Post
Your right, but when you lie to the entire country about it, it changes.
But why does this only apply to Clinton?
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  #111 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-12-2008, 12:51 AM
Nite and Deigh Nite and Deigh is a male United States Nite and Deigh is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Flames of Valor View Post
Tell me what was soo wrong with Ronald Reagan, I imagine you like that bastard Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton. I want legit reasons not some closed minded opinions from someone who thinks the issue of torture is enough to be the worst president over.
Took money from the poor, gave it to the rich, created a lot more national debt. Clinton was average at best and I honestly don't know enough about Carter to judge him.
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  #112 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-13-2008, 09:59 AM
Flames of Valor Flames of Valor is a male United States Flames of Valor is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Ogmios22188 View Post
But why does this only apply to Clinton?
Because his has so far, been the most clear and blatent lie, it was 100%.

However, it is entirely possible Bush lied outright as well, and there is also a chance that he was mislead as well. So until I have Dna evidence it isn't 100% to me.
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  #113 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-13-2008, 10:01 AM
Skoomy Skoomy is a male Norway Skoomy is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

DNA evidence for him lying?
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  #114 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-13-2008, 10:23 AM
Nox Nox is a male United States Nox is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Flames of Valor View Post
However, it is entirely possible Bush lied outright as well, and there is also a chance that he was mislead as well. So until I have Dna evidence it isn't 100% to me.
How about how the fact that Bush kept on switching reasons for going to Iraq? Actually, this would be more of a grave mistake than anything, but the point is that Bush hasn't really told us the true intention of why we are over in Iraq.
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  #115 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-13-2008, 11:06 AM
Ogmios22188 United_States Ogmios22188 is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Flames of Valor View Post
However, it is entirely possible Bush lied outright as well, and there is also a chance that he was mislead as well. So until I have Dna evidence it isn't 100% to me.
But the consequences have been so much graver. That alone should inspire some ire on your part.
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  #116 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-13-2008, 11:20 AM
Nite and Deigh Nite and Deigh is a male United States Nite and Deigh is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Flames of Valor View Post
Because his has so far, been the most clear and blatent lie, it was 100%.

However, it is entirely possible Bush lied outright as well, and there is also a chance that he was mislead as well. So until I have Dna evidence it isn't 100% to me.
Actually his "lie" was a nondenial-denial.

Lying about how much head you get and who it's from (aka private issues) is a lot worse then making up WMDs so you can start a conflict that would go on to kill 100,000s of people.
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Old 04-14-2008, 03:04 PM
Noscreenname United_States Noscreenname is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by Nox View Post
How about how the fact that Bush kept on switching reasons for going to Iraq? Actually, this would be more of a grave mistake than anything, but the point is that Bush hasn't really told us the true intention of why we are over in Iraq.
He switched reasons because the reasons switched. At first everyone (not just Bush and his staff) thought that Hussein had WMDs; furthermore, Bush even thought he had ties to terrorists. Once we got in there we found out otherwise, but it wasn't a simple matter of getting right back out, because that would create more chaos than staying and stabilizing the mess that destroying the previous holder of power had created.
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  #118 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 04-14-2008, 04:49 PM
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

Eh, he's alright. He's not the smartest in the world, but it's not like he led us into an economic slump or... oh, Well he's still not the worst.
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:53 PM
ARealRevolution Canada ARealRevolution is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

I know this is late from the other ones, but I just want to get my say in this.

George W. Bush is the worst President in the History of the United States of America.
These are the following scandals that happend during his Administration:

1. Walter Reed outpatient treatment, poor living conditions, undelivered mail, lack of caseworkers to oversee and facilitate patient care for amputees, brain injured, and psychologically disabled veterans; Walter Reed is not the only military hospital about which questions have been raised; also out there the underfunding of the VA

2. Firing of US attorneys. Most of the country's 93 US attorneys are usually replaced within the first 2 years of a new administration and this is what happened when Bush came into office in 2001. US attorneys are political appointees and are chosen to reflect the policy priorities of a President. Still their primary job is to uphold the law, and the law is not supposed to be partisan. Karl Rove, of course, had other ideas. He believes that government should be politicized and populated with compliant partisan hacks loyal to him and his.

3. Plamegate. Scooter Libby Chief of Staff to the Vice President was convicted on March 6, 2007 on two counts of perjury before the Grand Jury and one count each of obstruction of justice and making false statements to the FBI. Placing political payback (against an individual and an agency) above national security, the Vice President's office orchestrated the outing of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame, her cover company Brewster Jennings, other agents which had used this same cover, and her contacts. All this was done in retaliation for an op-ed in the New York Times on July 6, 2003 written by her husband ambassador Joe Wilson. In it, he publicly debunked the "16 words" in Bush's January 28, 2003 State of the Union which claimed that Saddam Hussein had sought to obtain uranium from Africa (Niger). This undercut the argument that Iraq posed an imminent nuclear threat and showed that the Bush Administration had known this was so in advance of the war. Wilson had been sent to Niger to investigate this charge in February 2002 at the request of the CIA and had reported nearly a year before its use in the SOTU that it was false. After several attempts by among others Karl Rove to pitch Plame's identity to the media, on July 14, 2003, Valerie Plame was outed in a column by Robert Novak In his closing argument at the Libby trial, Patrick Fitzgerald detailed Cheney's guiding hand in the conspiracy behind the outing and spoke of a "cloud" over the Vice President. That cloud remains.

4. Iraq: axis of evil, lack of preparation for occupation, looting, including the National Museum, too few troops, lack of training, lack of equipment, lack of securing loose Iraqi munitions, disbanding the Iraqi army, banning the Baathists, the CPA, cronyism, Paul Bremer, losing tons of money literally, lack of international inclusion in reconstruction and security, weak Constitution, formation of sectarian parties, weak government, denial of actual conditions in Iraq, for example, its civil war, ignoring 4 years of failed policies and the basic proposal of the Iraq Study Group to withdraw, escalating instead, continuing lack of any discernible mission.

5. Afghanistan, transferring resources to Iraq before the job was finished, the results: a resurgent Taliban, continuing warlordism, and exploding opium production. On January 30, 2008, three independent non-partisan reports on Afghanistan by the Center for the Study of the Presidency (Jones-Pickering), the Atlantic Council, and the National Defense University concluded that Afghanistan has been neglected and is in danger of becoming a failed state and that a new comprehensive policy for it is needed. You would think that after 6 years we would have one by now but this is the Bush Administration we are talking about.

6. Osama bin Laden, where are you? The blown opportunity at Tora Bora. Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the roles of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia in terrorism. Pakistan's intelligence service the ISI created the Taliban. Despite $11 billion in US aid from 2001 through 2007, the government of Pervez Musharraf continues to give it safe haven in Pakistan. As for al Qaeda, those efforts which do occur are limited and often timed to the visits of American dignitaries. In addition, Bush's oft stated policy of spreading democracy was dealt a blow when Musharraf fearing a Supreme Court decision preventing him from holding the Presidency and remaining Chief of Staff of the armed forces declared a state of emergency and instituted martial law on November 3, 2007.

7. The Military Commissions Act: torture, indefinite detention, the end of habeas corpus, and kangaroo courts. One of the last acts of the Congress before the November 2006 elections, it passed the Senate on September 28 and the House the next day and was signed into law by Bush on October 17. The short story on this is that, pre-election, the Republicans pushed it and the Democrats caved on it. As bad as the military commissions envisioned in the act are, the Combatant Status Review Tribunals (CSRTs) which designate who is to be tried are even worse. They were complete shams. Decisions were made on the flimsiest and most general information without challenge or taking into account the methods (torture) used to obtain it. Detainees lacked effective legal representation, and the CSRTs did not come close to meeting minimal standards of judicial process, even a preliminary one. To top it off, as later military judges have found, the CSRTs designated detainees "enemy combatants" which does not meet the Military Commissions Act standard of "unlawful enemy combatants" vitiating their findings to date. Even when they make up the rules they can't get it right.
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  #120 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-07-2008, 07:18 PM
Kouten United_States Kouten is offline
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Re: So... how 'bout that Bush?

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Originally Posted by The Metal View Post
Eh, he's alright. He's not the smartest in the world, but it's not like he led us into an economic slump or... oh, Well he's still not the worst.
War costs money, and as I see it, we needed this war. Remember that Pearl Harbor was the last major attack on U.S. land. When 9/11 occurred, Bush had to make a decision that he knew would greatly impact the country. But what if we hadn't gone to war? Would America be any better off?

Bush definitely didn't do anything amazing, but give him the benefit of the doubt. He was (hopefully) only doing what he thought best for the country.
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