So... how 'bout that Bush?

Originally Posted by Daveigus

IMO Bush is one of the biggest criminals out there, first of all he didn't win the elections fair he cheated.

Source? You have no idea how the Electoral College works, do you? The procedure was followed for a disputed return, there hasn't been any solid evidence of ACTUAL tampering with votes. When a disputed return due to problems with how the polling center conducted itself arises, the courts get jurisdiction over it and ultimately the Florida Supreme Court awarded Bush the electoral votes based on the evidence they had. Its not like votes came out of nowhere.

he invaded the middle-east not because he wanted to destroy terrorists, he wanted to create chaos on those countries so he could get his hands on their oil.

Afghanistan isn't exactly...teeming with oil. Iraq's petrol infrastructure is pretty much been destroyed since the FIRST gulf war when Saddam went and blew the **** up.

and yes, iraq was better of under the reign of Houssein, sure Houssein killed a lot of people, that is just wrong but Bush killed more inocents with his useless war.
he lied about the chemical weapons being produced there..(btw why the f * ck is america the only country that may have nukes?! that does'nt make any f *cking sense!)

We're the only country that "may have nukes"?
Nuclear proliferation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Did you miss the whole "Cold War" unit in your remedial history class? There's plenty of countries that have nuclear capabilities. You're absolutely, undeniably flat wrong. Check your facts before you post next time. And Saddam DID have Chemical weapons. Was he making MORE as was the stated purpose for going to war? Probably not, but the convoys to Syria have never been explained sufficiently so they may have been smuggled out. We KNOW he had them and didn't get rid of them all.
Again, see Iraq and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more info on his use of chemical weapons.

i think a lot of americans get lied to about lots of afairs in your country.
sometimes in my country we see things about america wich an american would never believe if i told them (i can't remember any examples now but believe me it's true)

No, I'm not going to believe a god damn thing ANYONE says if they can't produce sources that I can verify myself. I never take any information based on "faith", either make with the links to reputable websites or don't say it.

Bush is one of the worst presidents our country has ever had; according to some polls, his current popularity rate is a record-shattering 18%, making him the most unpopular president in American history. Between his religious fanaticism, his piss-poor planning of the Iraq war, his support for warrantless wiretapping, and the fact that his presidency was bought and paid for by Big Oil, he's not only a terrible president but a terrible human being, and he deserves to be prosecuted for war crimes.

greatly underrated.

that said i disagree GREATLY with his borrow and spend attitude towards everything. I'm a conservative(with libertarian leanings) and quite frankly I want a conservative in office. The government should be run like a business, right now it's being run more like a game. Sim city doesn't work in real life people.

Originally Posted by Daveigus

IMO Bush is one of the biggest criminals out there, first of all he didn't win the elections fair he cheated.
he invaded the middle-east not because he wanted to destroy terrorists, he wanted to create chaos on those countries so he could get his hands on their oil.
and yes, iraq was better of under the reign of Houssein, sure Houssein killed a lot of people, that is just wrong but Bush killed more inocents with his useless war.
he lied about the chemical weapons being produced there..(btw why the f * ck is america the only country that may have nukes?! that does'nt make any f *cking sense!)

i think a lot of americans get lied to about lots of afairs in your country.
sometimes in my country we see things about america wich an american would never believe if i told them (i can't remember any examples now but believe me it's true)

you do realize thart sadaam has reportedly stated that he acted as to show signs of having chemical capacities to thwart potential invasion by iraq right?
he might not have had WMDs en mass, but when you're faking it... well.

[

No. They aren't. George Washington was perfect, end of story. Bush sucks. Period. End of sentence.

This really isn't a valid argument.

his piss-poor planning of the Iraq war

Actually, the Iraq invasion went really smoothly. It was the occupation that turned really sour. I also find it interesting that you think the president is completely responsible for the planning of an entire war. Don't you think the actual generals had more to do with that?

That said, I don't really like him as a president, and I don't see how anyone could really 'love' the job he's doing...but I think he's greatly underrated and is sometimes blamed for things that he isn't totally responsible for.

I picked the first option, but I forgot he was there when 9/11 happened, so I should've picked "Pretty lousy".
But in the present, he sucks ass. Either Hillary or Obama would make great presidents.

Originally Posted by Igna

Actually, the Iraq invasion went really smoothly. It was the occupation that turned really sour. I also find it interesting that you think the president is completely responsible for the planning of an entire war. Don't you think the actual generals had more to do with that?

With the tactical planning, of course, but the fact remains that from an occupational standpoint it was bound to be a quagmire. Not that much in the way of tactical planning was even required, given our military superiority.

Originally Posted by Project 2501

...he's not only a terrible president but a terrible human being, and he deserves to be prosecuted for war crimes.

War crimes? That's a new one. Well, let's hear 'em.

but the fact remains that from an occupational standpoint it was bound to be a quagmire.

Which is more to do with post-war planning, really, but I guess I'm nitpicking. The point is that one can't say he's entirely responsible for it.

You also forgot the fact that 9/11 was set up by bush.

I don't think you understand what the word "fact" means. That's just a theory, and it's a theory that has been debunked so frequently (and on this forum, no less) that I have a hard time even calling it a "theory" anymore.

sometimes in my country we see things about america wich an american would never believe if i told them (i can't remember any examples now but believe me it's true)

"Believe me it's true" is about the weakest argument you can come up with when talking about such widespread conspiracies as cheating to win the general election. To be honest, I'd prefer believing in the version that has been accepted by a hundred different groups of people who would go to town if they could prove that what you were saying was in fact true. If some reliable US news source could do that...they would, wouldn't they?

Originally Posted by Project 2501

Bush is one of the worst presidents our country has ever had; according to some polls, his current popularity rate is a record-shattering 18%, making him the most unpopular president in American history. Between his religious fanaticism, his piss-poor planning of the Iraq war, his support for warrantless wiretapping, and the fact that his presidency was bought and paid for by Big Oil, he's not only a terrible president but a terrible human being, and he deserves to be prosecuted for war crimes.

Didja read the first post? Here it is again:

Originally Posted by Me

I recently saw a poll that showed his approval ratings at an all-time low: about 31%. Still, this was higher than the ratings of Hoover, Truman, Johnson, Nixon, and Carter, so I hardly see where all this worst-president-ever stuff is coming from.

Originally Posted by Noscreenname

Didja read the first post? Here it is again:

Yeah, and? Your poll says 31%, his poll says 18%. Neither of these are absolute, but what they do tell us is that the Americans sampled overwhelmingly find his job as President unsatisfactory.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

Yeah, and? Your poll says 31%, his poll says 18%. Neither of these are absolute, but what they do tell us is that the Americans sampled overwhelmingly find his job as President unsatisfactory.

There's the average of his approval polls. Each dot represents a poll. If you look you can see, way far off of the definite cluster of other dots, the one poll that indicated 18%.

There isn't a fine line between "satisfactory" and "unsatisfactory". There's many different levels of both. Yes most people disapprove of his presidency, but I'm just saying that even he doesn't have this to as bad a level as other presidents have.

Heck, I'm dissatisfied with many things that he's done as well. Just not nearly enough to make me boo him hatefully.

Abu-Ghraib
Reading my pet goat on 9/11
The conditions at Walter Reed
Outing Valerie Plame
Firing The Prosecutors
Invading The Wrong Country
Denying Global Warming
Selling The Ports to the Arabs
Gay Hooker Jeff Gannon
AWOL in The National Guard
Jack Abramoff
Harriet Miers
Illegal Wiretaps
Terri Schiavo
Lost Trillion$ in Iraq
Aresenic In Drinking Water
Hurricane Katrina
Misuse of Patriot Act
Gitmo
Black Sites
Cheney Shooting a Guy
No Bid Contracts
No Body Armor
Not Catching Bin Laden



LOL need i say more?

I don't have time to go through the list with great detail, Fierce, but what the hell? Cheney shooting a guy? What does that have to do with anything?

Yes, it did get a little random at the end.

Originally Posted by Fi3rce Di3ty

Abu-Ghraib
Reading my pet goat on 9/11
The conditions at Walter Reed
Outing Valerie Plame
Firing The Prosecutors
Invading The Wrong Country
Denying Global Warming
Selling The Ports to the Arabs
Gay Hooker Jeff Gannon
AWOL in The National Guard
Jack Abramoff
Harriet Miers
Illegal Wiretaps
Terri Schiavo
Lost Trillion$ in Iraq
Aresenic In Drinking Water
Hurricane Katrina
Misuse of Patriot Act
Gitmo
Black Sites
Cheney Shooting a Guy
No Bid Contracts
No Body Armor
Not Catching Bin Laden



LOL need i say more?

You do know most all of the stuff on that list is garbage right. Especially the second one. If he had no idea what was happening why would he feel the need to disturb all of those children? He did the right thing there, as there was nothing else he could do?

Terri Schiavo? Whatever man, that was a case based on who had the right to the woman's future. What did Bush have to do with that?

Clinton actually dodged the draft. Bush was honorably discharged.

Cheney is still friends with the man he shot. In fact that same friend shot him years ago while hunting. They shared a laugh over the event. This event is blown up way to much.

I'm done debunking, you list is trash.

It's the mans job to know what was going on.

It's the mans job to know what was going on.

Wow, you know I'm sure he knew about all that stuff, you know him being presisdent and all. But just because he's president doesn't mean he has the right to interfere with everything. He can't persaude the courts, he can't even act on his own. I mean seriously, over half that stuff has nothing to do with the office of the president.

Well, I don't personally like him. He's quite spineless, liberals/democrats/hippies should feel lucky they got him instead of a Cpt. America.

The only reason I support him in arguments is because of the obnoxious people that hate him. I only get conspiracy theories(got paid by "big oil", invaded iraq for oil, etc), lies(went AWOL in guard), and generally stupid comments(read a story in a school on 9/11).

I am frustrated at the rabid anger at him. Its the reason I am an independent. Respect the guy for taking the hardest job on earth.

And to be honest, as far as the whole Patriot Act thing goes...

Alien & Sedition Acts of 1798, anyone? How about the Sedition Act of 1918? The Espionage Act of 1917? Or how about all of those internment camps that were set up on US soil?

I mean, if you think about it, FDR, one of the most well recognized and remembered presidents, probably did more damage to our constitutional rights than Bush ever did. Does this excuse Bush? No. But in terms of war-time security measures, this wire-tapping thing is almost nothing to the intrusions that other presidencies have made on the 1st amendment. Once again, not excusing Bush, simply showing how overblown the "worst president ever" line is.

The point is that one can't say he's entirely responsible for it.

Perhaps not, but no one person can plan a war (or an occupation) all on their own. This does not erase the fact that he is a primary instigator.

Many of the things on that list are not actually war crimes, merely either mismanagements of office or things that he had nothing to do with. The things on it that I would consider serious abuses of power or failures of leadership are as follows:

Abu-Ghraib
Outing Valerie Plame
Jack Abramoff
Illegal Wiretaps
Hurricane Katrina
Misuse of Patriot Act
Gitmo
Black Sites
No Bid Contracts
No Body Armor