Crowley's last words.

Were supposedly "I'm perplexed"

There are many who claim to have proved this wrong, and blah blah blah.

It's all very insane. But it sparked many thoughts.

I live near a large community of Pagans, Wiccans, Witches, and what have you.

So you can definitely imagine the puffed up ego-centric tales I hear. There are many legitimate students, of course, and it works much like this forum up there at times.
But then of course, there are also the types who read and only talk. Half of their experiences are their own imaginings, or creations.
In fact, many of these people attract eachother. I hear constantly things like "he is trying to attack me spiritually, through my dreams. I am going to have to curse him." and so on and so forth. They create whole imaginary "wars". It is sometimes very pathetic. That people are so lazy they deny themselves spirituality.

This, though, sparks a semi-relevent question.

Is utilizing somewhat extreme and fearful forms of protection just as bad as attempting to "curse" somebody, or send some negative will towards somebody? We all know that there are some very effective branches of the occcult, especially anything involving the aid of another entity, such as Evocation.
There is no doubt that terrible things can be done if you really want them done. But nobody seems to be interested in that. Most likely because of our natural fear of the unknown. I am not necessarily talking about the rule of three that wiccans swear by. I am really talking about the unknown. The millions of fears and fearful thoughts one gets when consciously doing something wrong.
This is not the only consequence, I imagine, to using another entity to accomplish some foul deed on another person. I have never found out, and don't want to. Thankfully, it seems nobody else has.
But what of that fear? It is potent in some other reach of the mind. That is why we protect ourselves. Everybody who has practiced some form of occultism, esoterics, or what have you has used their own form of what they see as protection. Yet, what of, in such practices as Evocation, when your emotions get the better of you. You may do anything within the confines of the paranoid mind, including calling forth a harmful being as an effective means of protection.
Is this just as bad as intentionally harming others?
Using harsh and extreme forms of protections against other practitioners and beings. Especially if you have specific fears, such as those for ghosts and anything involving death.

What do you guys think?

I honestly don't understand the question; I doubt anyone else here does either.

Clarify yourself. Are you seriously asking us a question about magic? If so, all I have to say is, obviously, "it doesn't exist", and I'm done. Hopefully, though, your question isn't about that.

I don't really understand it either. I do know that thinking about something terrible isn't a crime. Thinking of killing someone isn't as bad as actually doing it. Otherwise, I'd be in jail by now. Bullies need to suffer painfuly.

So if I understand enough, you believe that if it's possible to curse someone, would it be as bad as physically doing it? Well, playing mind games with people, and making them feel unsafe when they try to go through day to day living, can cause them to have accidents due to stress.

Like if they have a fear of fire, and you put pictures of forest fires in their locker or in their house. And at night, you play a tape that has the sound of fire recorded on it. So you're not actually setting them or their house ablase like an arsonist, but you're still tormenting them.

I don't really believe in magic or the occult, though. So I don't believe in curses or hexes.

Edit: Who is Crowley, anyway, and what were his last words?

Originally Posted by OubliantLeSang

Is this just as bad as intentionally harming others?
Using harsh and extreme forms of protections against other practitioners and beings. Especially if you have specific fears, such as those for ghosts and anything involving death.

What do you guys think?

Well, any feeling that one must do something (occult or otherwise) that involves the array of negative emotions one may have always stems from fear originally. However, I don't think rites used for protection would actually count as the same as hurting someone. However, if it was deliberately aimed to spite someone instead of rather to just defend one's self (basically malefic intent disguised as desire to protect) I would say it would be more or less equal to cursing. However, I think, that if they really believe these mind games, as you say most of these Wiccans have amongst themselves, and they really believe so-and-so wants them hurt, and they don't consider it more or less a game and seriously fear for themselves, I doubt it would come back to them threefold.

However, yeah, it might be powerfully worse than an intentional curse...But not morally speaking, because it's like self-defense.

I'm no expert on the occult, nor can I say I'm a practitioner...that's just what I think. Intention means a lot, no matter if you're talking witchcraft or other, non-metaphysical practices of consciousness like the Dhyanas. I know I probably wasn't much help, and I can't really say I have dabbled, just read some. For me, Witchcraft would be a terrible tool to have, anyway. My mind would not be worthy of such a thing, regardless of how it might work. If I do it subconsciously, that alone is enough.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

Who is Crowley, anyway, and what were his last words?

Aleister Crowley. Considered the Antichrist by some, founded the Thelema branch of witchcraft, had an angel of some kind. World's most famous occultist. Check him out on the Wiki.

To OubliantLeSang:

As for the other statement about his last words, were you tying it into this question somehow? Does it have something else to do with the defense magicks? I can't remember how he died, if that has anything to do with it.

Originally Posted by OubliantLeSang

We all know that there are some very effective branches of the occcult, especially anything involving the aid of another entity, such as Evocation.

Er, no we don't.

There is no doubt that terrible things can be done if you really want them done.

Depends. What terrible things?




So, if I'm understanding you, you're saying this:
In wicca there is a belief that you can summon spirits to help you. You want to know if summoning an evil spirit to protect you is an evil act?


Since I rather doubt that you (or anyone, ever) could summon spirits, I'll try and distill this into other philisophical terms:

Either you're asking if the ends justify the means. (So, is summoning an evil spirit to protect you fine so long as you don't intend to have it do anything but protect you?) In that case I'd probably have to say yes. If your ends cause more good than your means cause harm, then I doubt I'd have a problem with it.

Or you're asking if accidentally doing something wrong is morally wrong. In which case I'm going to have to give an unreserved no.


However, I think you can put any fears to rest, since spirits cannot be summoned. This whole question strikes me as worrying about the morality of hiring Santa Clause to spy on a friend: it only works as a hypothetical situation, not one that could ever actually happen.

You guys don't get it.

She says it doesn't matter if it's possible or not. That's not the point at all. She's talking about the thought behind such actions. After all, it's the thought that counts.

Merely thinking about something is never as bad as doing the action, as the thought only stays inside your head. It is the actions that cause harm, never the mere thought.

Ah, well, the question of if intent is as bad as action is an interesting one.

I'd argue that if you honestly intend harm, then morally that is as bad as actually causing that harm.

However, wishing for five seconds that that jerk whose been insulting you would just die is not the same as intending to kill him.

In fact, I'd argue that you don't really, truly, intent to cause harm until you've actually tried to do so. At that point, no matter if you succeed or not, you are morally just as guilty as someone who actually managed to do what you tried to do.

Wow... quick replies. I'll try to answer them all in sum.

No, not magic necessarily, since I have no clue what that is.
But this WAS based on the occult, nothing remotely wiccan... I was thinking more along the lines of Evocation.(not Goetian, or the lesser keys of solomon) I am not wiccan. I think that it is silly that everything even pseudo-esoteric is pigeonholed like that. There are many older and vastly more respectable branches within the art of witchcraft than wicca. I have a personalized practice, not a religion. That would most likely make me pagan, or more accurately, mesopagan. Witchcraft would be what I prefer.

"However, I think you can put any fears to rest, since spirits cannot be summoned. This whole question strikes me as worrying about the morality of hiring Santa Clause to spy on a friend: it only works as a hypothetical situation, not one that could ever actually happen."

It is unnerving how simplistic that statement was, and a bit arrogant. You cannot prove or disprove any practice. YOu have only five senses, not enough to do what you pretend to do. And that is comprehending the boundlessly complex systems of our earth, and th cosmos themselves.
It is obvious you grasped little of what I was talking about. My apologies, that was my fault. There is no evil or good "spirit", the thought is cartoonish to me, really.
When I mentioned Evocation, I meant the form Crowley used the most, Egregore.
Which is basically a thoughtform entity composed of the symbiotic channeling of a common desire. To be blunt, personal thoughts influence this greatly.
So the question, in a nutshell.

Is it possible for fear to breed fear?
Is it just as negative?

"Aleister Crowley. Considered the Antichrist by some, founded the Thelema branch of witchcraft, had an angel of some kind. World's most famous occultist. Check him out on the Wiki."

He called himself "The Beast 666". A childhood nickname given by his mother. But Crowley being the man he was, allowed this rumor to surface commonly. A mistake, in my opinion.

"As for the other statement about his last words, were you tying it into this question somehow? Does it have something else to do with the defense magicks? I can't remember how he died, if that has anything to do with it."

Yes ::points up::
Not a big Crowley fan, nor magick. I do know that he died of a heart attack, and nobody heard his last words. They were a reflection, really, showing how the question sparked.