Intolerant Secularists

Intollerance.
What do you think of when you hear this word? I think of fundamentalist christians. And indeed there are many narrow minded, dogmatic christians out there I am afraid to say. People who have no tollerance to respecting the beleifs and values of others.

But I have noticed a growing thing. More and more I am seeing intollerance, narrow mindedness and dogmaticism from the secular end of the spectrum.

Now most of the agnostics, secularists, and athiests on Zelda Universe have been quite reasonable and respectful and to many degrees tollerant. But I see most of these intollernat people on web sites like youtube, just looked at the many christian bashing, religion hating videos you will find there.

What is it that changes a very reasonable, very respectful secularist(or athiest) person into an intollernt, hater?

I admit there are many ignorant and narrow people in my own faith(christianity) but its begining to appear to me that there are even more on the other side of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

Intollerance.
What do you think of when you hear this word? I think of fundamentalist christians. And indeed there are many narrow minded, dogmatic christians out there I am afraid to say. People who have no tollerance to respecting the beleifs and values of others.

But I have noticed a growing thing. More and more I am seeing intollerance, narrow mindedness and dogmaticism from the secular end of the spectrum.

Now most of the agnostics, secularists, and athiests on Zelda Universe have been quite reasonable and respectful and to many degrees tollerant. But I see most of these intollernat people on web sites like youtube, just looked at the many christian bashing, religion hating videos you will find there.

What is it that changes a very reasonable, very respectful secularist(or athiest) person into an intollernt, hater?

I admit there are many ignorant and narrow people in my own faith(christianity) but its begining to appear to me that there are even more on the other side of the spectrum.

I think what you have to consider here is how loud stupid people in large numbers can be. I blame this militant-atheist philosophy and a 'bandwagon' effect. Atheism has started to pick up speed, it seems, and people are starting to jump on the non-conformist bandwagon. If you want to equate your philosophical and religious beliefs to that of trend hopping, that's fine for you, but a trend hopping ideology can be harmful when in a field as serious as religion and philosophy. It seems as if the less you understand a cause which has picked up speed, such as atheism or fundamental Christianity, the louder and more militant you are about your cause. With the exception of a few thinkers, (Dawkins comes to mind) militant atheism seems to mostly be perpetrated by a rebellious youth culture.

This is not to say there aren't mindful, tolerant atheists. Quite the opposite, there are many open minded, thoughtful atheists (I'm an atheist, and I really wouldn't consider myself militant), but it seems like their voices are muffled by the illogical intolerance created by a radical movement with no real point.

I'm an agnostic, and I like to consider myself tolerant. I don't "bash" religion for the sake of it like many of the people you described, but I will argue with it where I see flaws.

I think the main problem is that humanity seems to be degrading itself all the time. We seem to be breeding more and more brainless, intolerant pond life, who ruin good people's lives all the time, not just by intollerance.

I conider that discrimination is on the increase, largely because people are too blind to see that a difference in sex, skin colour, sexuality, religion all do not make the slightest bit of difference.

It is sad that the world has come to this, but I do not think it is secularists, atheists and agnostics who are to blame, I simply think there are more of them around now, so our views are more noticeable - particularly if we express them so appallingly.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

Intollerance.
What do you think of when you hear this word? I think of fundamentalist christians. And indeed there are many narrow minded, dogmatic christians out there I am afraid to say. People who have no tollerance to respecting the beleifs and values of others.

But I have noticed a growing thing. More and more I am seeing intollerance, narrow mindedness and dogmaticism from the secular end of the spectrum.

Now most of the agnostics, secularists, and athiests on Zelda Universe have been quite reasonable and respectful and to many degrees tollerant. But I see most of these intollernat people on web sites like youtube, just looked at the many christian bashing, religion hating videos you will find there.

What is it that changes a very reasonable, very respectful secularist(or athiest) person into an intollernt, hater?

I admit there are many ignorant and narrow people in my own faith(christianity) but its begining to appear to me that there are even more on the other side of the spectrum.

I think it's possibly due to how entrenched religion (particularly Christianity) is over in the Americas. I'm mostly referring to the U.S. here as I don't know what the situation is like in Canada. In a lot of places in the U.S., atheists are discriminated against while religious groups hold power (both political and over people in general) and abuse that power in many circumstances (e.g. the attempt at worming Creationism into science classes).
I think a lot of secularists over there are just plain fed up with the power that religion has over their country, some to the point where they get vocal and start trying to fight against religious influence in their country. Some of these attempts would inevitably become misguided, making these people seem as intolerant as the groups/people they are trying to fight against in the first place.

Well, that's how it seems to an outsider anyway.

I will freely admit that there are intolerant atheists, people who don't believe religion simply because the like the idea of making fun of other people's beliefs. (The amount of anti-Islam feeling in some corners of the atheist groups is staggering.)

However, I suspect that most of this image of intolerance comes from one thing, that previously religion was considered sacrosanct, you weren't (aren't, really) supposed to question anyone's deeply held religious beliefs.

Suddenly these atheists are doing just that.

The thing is, in many cases, they aren't doing anything different from what people do to those who believe in bigfoot or aliens. They take a look at the evidence and say: "Well, no, your belief doesn't work."

Now, they tend to be more emphatic than that, but the core of what they're saying is the same.

I'd certainly say that Richard Dawkins falls under this category, not being intolerant, simply...argumentative.

Now, Christopher Hitchens, on the other hand, I'm certain is very intolerant. So not even mainstream atheists are immune to it, alas.

And yes, quite a bit of the stuff done by atheists in the US is done because they are current oppressed. Most of the "militant" atheists whose stuff I've read have, essentially, said that what they're doing is the same as any other human rights crusade, and that challenging the ideas of others (and even being rude) are nigh-essential parts of those.

Anything similar you see in Canada is likely out of fear that we'll end up more like how the US is now.

Most all athiests who have an overriding hate for religion are in fact teenagers far too immature to have their opinions counted as anything more than a statistic. Far more so on Youtube, one of the internet's deepest pits of hell. So there is no general trend, and none to be wary of.

It's comparable to saying there is a disturbing trend of racism against African Americans simply from browsing 4chan.

Originally Posted by Virtigo

It's comparable to saying there is a disturbing trend of racism against African Americans simply from browsing 4chan.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's just a meme like any of the other absurd sets of phrases with assorted imagery they throw up. However, if there really are feelings of racial superiority over others at 4Chan, I'm just not knowledgeable of it. I know plenty of people who say things that seem racist because they have a parodying quality of how irrational real racism is.

I'd say that the point of it is the shock value and the general dada-esque mania which the Chans and especially the Anonymous group thrive on.

Originally Posted by Virtigo

Most all atheists who have an overriding hate for religion are in fact teenagers far too immature to have their opinions counted as anything more than a statistic.

Actually, it depends on what you mean by overriding hate, and if you mean all religion. I know a a lot of teens who simply hate Christianity because it's been forced on them to the point where it repulses them. I was one of those people, and I still can't say it's on my mega happy time list. It is the religiously entrenched or barricaded that create disillusion for the youth, I think. And no matter what it comes down to, there is no one person whose religious take is identical to any other person, so of course teens will have conflict with the minds of others suffocating them with their ideas when they just don't agree. It's natural there be an uprising to every colossal force. Revivalism in Christianity is now receiving some real opposition, and that's for the sake of the psychological liberty of everyone.

Consider this: The truth itself is straight and narrow. Two plus two can't equal five, you will never fall up, and this forum does not have a yellow theme. Why should we be tolerant if the truth isn't? I don't know about atheists, but when we know what's right, why should we accept anything else?

Originally Posted by mikej

Consider this: The truth itself is straight and narrow. Two plus two can't equal five, you will never fall up, and this forum does not have a yellow theme. Why should we be tolerant if the truth isn't? I don't know about atheists, but when we know what's right, why should we accept anything else?

Because by being tolerant everybody gets along. And secondly because nobody knows the truth.

Originally Posted by Eternal Paradox

Because by being tolerant everybody gets along. And secondly because nobody knows the truth.

I do, but that's beside the point. Everybody getting along... here? Yeah right. There is too much conflict here in this dimension for that to even be remotely possible. Besides, when it gets down to reality, it doesn't matter that we have peace here if it means more people go to hell. I couldn't live with myself if I knew I was responsible for someone going to hell because they never heard the truth from me.

Originally Posted by mikej

Everybody getting along... here? Yeah right. There is too much conflict here in this dimension for that to even be remotely possible.

Too much conflict - ergo there isn't tolerance.

Originally Posted by mikej

I don't know about atheists, but when we know what's right, why should we accept anything else?

That is an arrogant presumption.

You do not know the truth. Nobody does.

If nothing else, here is where I must side with the atheist philosophy. At least in most cases, they don't profess to absolutely know the truth. They admit a certain amount of doubt, but weigh the evidence and base their decision on that.

Originally Posted by Eldin

That is an arrogant presumption.

You do not know the truth. Nobody does.

If nothing else, here is where I must side with the atheist philosophy. At least in most cases, they don't profess to absolutely know the truth. They admit a certain amount of doubt, but weigh the evidence and base their decision on that.

Why should it be that we can't know the truth? There is undeniable evidence of God everywhere. Everything you see. Even if man assembled it, who do you think made the parts? The whole big bang theory may be true, but it doesn't disprove God. God doesn't live under any of his restrictions. He would have created the conditions for the big bang, if it happened. Any way you look at it, God had to have made the conditions for the universe. Also, don't give me any crap that man made God to have an authority figure. Man would not have made a God that restricted the things that are enjoyable, or are hard to avoid doing. Just want to get that out of the way before anyone tries to say it.

The universe does not need a god to exist. And it certainly doesn't need the Christian god any more than it needs any other god.

Just because you say "evidence of god is everywhere" does not make it so. That's your perspective based on a belief system you were probably raised to believe in.

Originally Posted by Guy Westcott

Too much conflict - ergo there isn't tolerance.

Exactly. I'd rather have someone struggle with conflict for a several decades and go to heaven and then have eternal joy than have peace for their earthly life and go to hell to rot for the rest of eternity. It's a basic principal that enduring hardships now brings rewards later. As a very simple and small example, putting the milk up so it won't go sour. Everything in everything is modeled around this simple principal. Link goes and travels all around Hyrule, occasionally getting hurt, just to get the reward of saving his land. See? Literally everything.

While I do agree that this principle is usually true (pain now for gain later), it in no way validates the God hypothesis. It simply means that taking control of your life usually yields favorable outcomes.

You put in the work of getting an education, you're rewarded with a better job. You endure the pain of working out, your muscles get stronger. Nothing godly about it.

Originally Posted by Eldin

The universe does not need a god to exist. And it certainly doesn't need the Christian god any more than it needs any other god.

Just because you say "evidence of god is everywhere" does not make it so. That's your perspective based on a belief system you were probably raised to believe in.

If God didn't make all this, who or what did? Certainly man could have not created the sun, and it didn't make itself either.

Originally Posted by mikej

If God didn't make all this, who or what did? Certainly man could have not created the sun, and it didn't make itself either.

Nobody had to make it. Science tries to explain how everything came to be by natural processes. It doesn't mean we know everything--but it is foolish to invoke "God" in every area where we're ignorant.

As science progresses, we know more and more about the world, and the need to invoke God becomes less and less. We used to think the world was flat. That the earth was the center of the solar system. Evolution shows how the complexity of life could have arose with out a designer. Dating techniques show beyond reasonable doubt that the earth is much older than the old Archbishops would have us believe.

God might exist, but he doesn't have to exist. And modern science suggests he probably doesn't.

Originally Posted by Eldin

While I do agree that this principle is usually true (pain now for gain later), it in no way validates the God hypothesis. It simply means that taking control of your life usually yields favorable outcomes.

You put in the work of getting an education, you're rewarded with a better job. You endure the pain of working out, your muscles get stronger. Nothing godly about it.

I see the reason for this is that God wanted it that way. Like I've already said on some other threads, he wants to test our faith, and to do that we need to endure hardships.

Originally Posted by mikej

I do, but that's beside the point. Everybody getting along... here? Yeah right. There is too much conflict here in this dimension for that to even be remotely possible. Besides, when it gets down to reality, it doesn't matter that we have peace here if it means more people go to hell. I couldn't live with myself if I knew I was responsible for someone going to hell because they never heard the truth from me.

You sure have a twisted view of hell.