The Beginning of the Universe

I have seen many arguments debating how the universe began, and each of them either proposes existence from nothing, or eternal existence. I have thoroughly read evidence for each, and have come to the conclusion that both are rather illogical.

The former (existence from nothing) says that at one point in time there was nothing, then the next point there was something. I haven't yet been been able to find even a baseless theory on how this could happen. I have thought about it, and even warping the laws of physics greatly hasn't given me a possible answer.

The latter (eternal existence) on the other hand doesn't explain the beginning of the universe because it states that there was no beginning. My problem with this theory is that it does not explain how things exist. I must admit that I am mainly referring to the beliefs held by those of western religions (Christianity, Islam & Judaism), where it is the existence of a god which goes unexplained, but my opinion still stands.

However, I bring forth to you all a separate argument, one which I believe has enough of a possibility to be worth discussing here.

I say that the universe was created with intention, as most forms of creationism I know also say, but also brings forward how this can be possible without eternal existence. I say that beings from the distant future (distant enough as to be able to manipulate sub-atomic particles to cause any desired reaction) caused the beginning of the universe by travelling through time. Time travel has never been deemed impossible by the laws of physics as we know them mind you; The most common view of how to travel through time is to either approach the speed of light (which effectively would cause a person to travel forwards through time) or to go faster than light (which would make a person travel backwards through time). I believe that it was Einstien who stated that nothing can go at the speed of light, but never did he say that you couldn't go faster than light; although I am unable to explain how it would be possible for a person to do this, as if I were, I would probably have tried to go back in time by now.

So, what do you all think of my idea? I'm not completely set on it, but it is technically possible as I see it.



Oh, and as it is 2:30am where I live, I'm going to bed. I'll be back in the morning. I just wanted to get my idea here before I forgot it as I slept.

A few things, just quickly, the "universe from nothing" argument is ms-named.

The big-bang theory has the universe being created, however, it doesn't say it was created from nothing. Rather, it says we cannot know how it was created, since nothing from whatever was before the universe can ever be detected.

In addition, the universe could very well have come from nothing, since there would be no reason it couldn't. The fact that something cannot appear from nothing is a property of this universe, and there is no reason to assume that it would apply outside of it. (Rather like how killing thugs in the real world won't cause torches to suddenly ignite, even though it does in Zelda.)


As for your theory, it has a rather major problem: People could not exist to go back in time unless the universe had already been made.

In addition, going faster-than-light is impossible. In order to go at the speed of light, you'd need an unlimited amount of energy (which cannot exist), in order to go faster than light you'd need a greater-than-unlimited amount of energy, which is somewhat more impossible. (In fact, the match works out that the amount of energy you'd need is the square root of a negative number, which doesn't actually exist.)

The beginning of the universe was not the big bang, it was God. Why? Because the Christian view makes sense, while the big bang theory actually contradicts many of the scientific laws.

Also, there had to be a beginning of time. Why? Because an infinite amount of time would have to have passed before now if there was no beginning, and since an infinite amount can never pass, it hasn't passed before now. The only explanation is God. God created time. "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."

Surio, did you read my post? I explicitly said why the big bang doesn't violate any scientific laws.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Surio, did you read my post? I explicitly said why the big bang doesn't violate any scientific laws.

However, my intelligent friend, it does.
See, the big bang was supposed to be when a single, very compact atom got so hot and exploded.
This is impossible why?
1. How could the compact atom get created?
2. How come the atoms that make up our body don't explode? (maybe they're not that compact?...)

That, and how could a single atom, even a very compact one, make an explosion that big? The atom bomb, which splits atoms, doesn't make an explosion nearly as big!
Oh, and how could an atom get so compact?

Please explain...

I cant answer that but I know it's the Big-Bang theory for sure. Maybe the compact atoms was a series(maybe 17 or so) compact atoms. I'm not a scientist but i know it doesn't violate laws of science.

Originally Posted by Venomous-Ninja

However, my intelligent friend, it does.
See, the big bang was supposed to be when a single, very compact atom got so hot and exploded.
This is impossible why?
1. How could the compact atom get created?
2. How come the atoms that make up our body don't explode? (maybe they're not that compact?...)

That, and how could a single atom, even a very compact one, make an explosion that big? The atom bomb, which splits atoms, doesn't make an explosion nearly as big!
Oh, and how could an atom get so compact?

Please explain...

Simple, that isn't what the theory states.

Rather, it has the universe originating from a singularity, where the laws of the universe wouldn't apply.



Edit: Now that I've got more time to go into details:

The big bang theory is accepted because all the evidence points that way. We know that the universe is expanding, so that means that at some point everything must have been closer together than it is now. Take this back far enough and you end up with everything exploding from a singularity (similar to a black hole.) Given the current rate of expansion, it would seem that the universe first emerged from this singularity about 13.5 billion years ago.

In addition, we know that 13.5 (or so) billion years ago the universe was hot. Very hot. So hot, in fact, that atoms couldn't even form.

So, this leads to the obvious conclusion that, about 13.5 billion years ago, something happened that released all the energy currently in the universe in an instant.


Now, I said that during the big bang the universe emerged from a singularity. This isn't quite right. By definition nothing can emerge from a singularity. Rather, the big bang acts like a singularity, in that we know that the laws of physics break down as you approach it, and we cannot possibly ever find out what it was like "inside" (before) it.

GD, I never actually stated that the "something from nothing" argument was referring to the big bang theory (although now that I look at it, I can see how strongly it was implied). In fact, it was your arguments in another topic which particularly made me avoid saying that. Your analogy:

In addition, the universe could very well have come from nothing, since there would be no reason it couldn't. The fact that something cannot appear from nothing is a property of this universe, and there is no reason to assume that it would apply outside of it. (Rather like how killing thugs in the real world won't cause torches to suddenly ignite, even though it does in Zelda.)

does bring to light a very good point, and a major flaw in my "eternal existence" argument (when relating it to the BBT). I now believe I was wrong in trying to warp the laws of physics to explain before the big bang, as I should have instead ignored the laws of physics entirely.
On another point you made... I guess I should have seen the paradox of the universe already existing for it to be able to begin to exist in my proposed theory.

And surio, what caused the existence of your god? A singularity being the start of existence as we know it certainly seems more likely than an infinitely complex being the start.

The cosmos is definitely a brilliant concept, isn't it?

It makes one feel small and insignificant in the grand design.

I really don't worry how it was created. I know the Lord created the heavens. Does it matter how? To me it doesn't, for it doesn't affect my life in any way. Perhaps He started the universe out with a big bang. It doesn't really concern how we live our lives, so I won't really worry about it now.

Originally Posted by Blizzaga

The cosmos is definitely a brilliant concept, isn't it?

It makes one feel small and insignificant in the grand design.

I really don't worry how it was created. I know the Lord created the heavens. Does it matter how? To me it doesn't, for it doesn't affect my life in any way. Perhaps He started the universe out with a big bang. It doesn't really concern how we live our lives, so I won't really worry about it now.

Are you calling the Lord a liar? The God of the Bible didn't start out the universe with a big bang.

Also, bonog dude, where did my God come from? Where did your compact atom (or whatever it is) come from? They're both just as likely the way I see it.

And GDwarf, how do we know the universe is expanding. I've heard that many times but I've never heard of the proof.

Originally Posted by Surio

Are you calling the Lord a liar? The God of the Bible didn't start out the universe with a big bang.

A lot of Christians would argue that God saying 'let there be light' in Genesis was him doing just that. How would you know anyway? Claiming to know the mind of God are you?

Originally Posted by Surio

And GDwarf, how do we know the universe is expanding. I've heard that many times but I've never heard of the proof.

Redshift is good evidence of the expansion of the universe.

Originally Posted by MMKB

A lot of Christians would argue that God saying 'let there be light' in Genesis was him doing just that. How would you know anyway? Claiming to know the mind of God are you?

Then how do you explain the 6 day creation of earth, if there was a big bang.

What about the comets? They can't last longer than 10 thousand years. If the universe was created billions of years ago, then why are there still comets out there.

Originally Posted by Surio

Are you calling the Lord a liar? The God of the Bible didn't start out the universe with a big bang.

Nothing of the sort. I'm saying that we simply don't know exactly how it was created. It sufficeth me to know that it was by the hands of God. Exactly, and precisely, how He did it is not important to me.

What about the comets? They can't last longer than 10 thousand years. If the universe was created billions of years ago, then why are there still comets out there.

Are you claiming all comets came into existence during the big bang? They (like stars, planets, and the such) are still being created.

I have heard theories that the Universe is expanding but will eventually begin to retract. Pehaps this happened all the time for an endless number of times? It compacts into one massive ball of everything, then the big bang happens. Just what I think, if the retracting theory is right then why not?

Originally Posted by Surio

Then how do you explain the 6 day creation of earth, if there was a big bang.

Just something to think about (and not bash me for):

Kolob.

Maybe it was six days according to the days of Kolob, the star or planet nearest to the throne or residence of God.

1 Kolob day = 1,000 earth years.

So, maybe, the earth was created in 6 Kolob days, which would be 6,000 earth years.

This would make more sense, wouldn't it? It could also please both creationists and evolutionists alike.

Again, just something to think about. It doesn't really matter how long it took for the earth to be created. What matters is that it was created.

Originally Posted by Surio

Then how do you explain the 6 day creation of earth, if there was a big bang.

The 6 days of creation are an allegory, they don't describe what really happened.

What about the comets? They can't last longer than 10 thousand years. If the universe was created billions of years ago, then why are there still comets out there.

What? Where are you getting this rubbish from? Why can't comets last longer than 10, 000 years?

Originally Posted by Surio

And GDwarf, how do we know the universe is expanding. I've heard that many times but I've never heard of the proof.

MMKB provided a link to information on Redshift, but I think I'll try my hand at explaining it here.


Red (and blue) shift are caused by the Doppler effect. The most common way you'll experience this in every-day life is when listening to trafic.

You've probably noticed that as a car approaches you the sound of it's engine is rather higher-pitched, when it's beside you it sounds close to the engine of your own car, and when it is moving away from you it sounds lower. (EEEEEEEEEEEEWWOOOOOOOOO is the sound effect normally used to describe it.)

This occurs because the sound-waves from an object moving towards you are closer together then when it's moving away from you. This is because the speed of sound is independent of the speed of it's source (So, even though that car is going faster, sounds made by it aren't.)

So, let's say that the car lets out a sound "pulse" once every second. If it was stationary then the pulses would be space equally in every direction, so it'd sound the same no matter what. However, as soon as it starts moving, you get an interesting problem. Since it's moving, say, east, every "pulse" that heads east will travel the same amount of distance that it did when the car was still. However, the car itself is moving, so the actual distance between it and the "pulse" is less by the time it releases the next one. Conversley, all the "pulses" heading west have more distance between them.

This ends up looking something like this: (((([] ) ) ) ) ).

Since our ears determine pitch based on the frequency of sound-waves, if you were to the left of the car it would sound higher-pitched then if you were beside it, and if you were behind it it would sound lower-pitched.

This also holds true if the car is still but you're moving towards/away from it, since to you the sound waves will still seem closer/farther apart.


What does all this have to do with the universe expanding? Well, something similar happens with light. Light shining from/reflecting off of something does the exact same thing. If the object is moving towards you then the light-waves become compressed, if it's moving away they become stretched. When light becomes compressed it moves more towards the blue end of the spectrum, when it's becoming stretched it moves towards the red.

So, when astronomers look at stars, they notice that the light from them is all moved further towards the red end of the spectrum then it should be. The obvious conclusion to make is that every star is moving away from us. Ergo, the universe is expanding.

What about the comets? They can't last longer than 10 thousand years. If the universe was created billions of years ago, then why are there still comets out there.

Why could comets only last 10 thousand years? The life-span of a comet depends entirely on how close it gets to the star it orbits. Ones that stay reasonably far away could last longer than the star.

I am not sure where I stand about the big bang. Actually I am but it is an odd place I suppose. Anyway, I was doing some reading on the big bang. Apparently scientists believe it was the beginning of our universe. I do not think it was the beginnning. But merely the beginning of what we know now.

Let me explain. The universe if it exceeds the critical mass it will begin to receed in on itself. That would mean almost all matter in the universe clumping together. THen perhaps another big bang? This cycle could happen only a finite amount of times I think because black holes will devour matter and thus taking from existence. (as far as we know)

Now I hope that made sence. I would like to discuss it and I am hoping to learn something as well.

Black holes do not devour matter. They are matter with incredible density.

The Big Bang would denote the beginning of the universe as we understand it, as anything before or outside of it exists outside our laws of physics, and thus our ability to observe.