If God can perform miracles....

No one ever brought up the Bible being the ultimate source of truth in this debate...

the bible is most definatly not the ultimate source of truth. I mean, I'm a christian and all, but...the bible, being a book written by man, could be just as fictional as any other book written by any other mortal. I'm not saying everything in the bible is fake, just that its a possibilty.

Miracles...I would say is something that happens that is very unlikely and of good fortune. LIke a person falling from a high building an not dying would be miraculus. That doesn't neccisarily mean that the person who fell was saved because of something god has done. IN short, miracles do happen, are they sent from god? well, I suppose thats what this discussion is about isnt it...

I don't think god works miracles any longer. Creating an earth, giving life to the planet, those are some pretty insanely large and miraculus and even colossal things. However, God hasn't done anything that large scale in thousands of years. which leads me to believe that he no longer preforms miracles. Besides, I beleive it says somewere in the bible that god gave us the humans, freewill, to do what we wanted with our lives. Miracles would interfer with that logic wouldn't they?

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

If is such a fun game.

Indeed it is. Just because "if" is used, though, doesn't mean you shouldn't answer. If someone went their entire life without sinning, which is entirely possible, how does it apply to them?

Ever not had flaws? Ever known someone who didn't have flaws?

Come to think of it, no. But love has nothing to do with flaws. By chance, someone might love the flaws of another. They might also love a certain air of perfection in the other. It is not, however, either the flaws or lack thereof that creates the love.

Damn right.

Glad we agree about something.

But... then what are monkeys? O_o

Originally Posted by Aex

Indeed it is. Just because "if" is used, though, doesn't mean you shouldn't answer. If someone went their entire life without sinning, which is entirely possible, how does it apply to them?

Such characters typically get Assumed into heaven without ever having to undergo physical deaths. At least, traditionally.

It is not, however, either the flaws or lack thereof that creates the love.

It is the kind of love God wanted to create when He made us.

As for monkeys...

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

It is the kind of love God wanted to create when He made us.

Can there be no love in Heaven?

Ok, now I'll try to give some of my opinions. I'll just try to answer things, but they won't be in any special order.

God created the Angels but didn't allow them into His Divine Presence at first. During this time some of the Angels, including Lucifer, rebelled and were defeated with God's help by the good Angels. So the Angels didn't get free access to Heaven, they had to earn it also.

Later, God created Adam and Eve. They sinned against God, forcing their punishment on the rest of humanity as well. People suffer for those sins. God has a perfect sense of justice, and all injustice that happens on Earth is made up for in Heaven.

God made Man with free will, and so He makes it Man's choice to decide whether or not to work to accept Him.

God became Man to redeem us of our sins. He did many miracles, but even when he raised people from the dead, people wouldn't believe him. And he doesn't despise sinners. If you'll notice, the Apostles were sinners and often the Pharisees would insult Jesus for staying with the sinners rather than those who didn't sin. God condemns sinners when they refuse His help and die in mortal sin.

The Bible is perfect. Men did write the Bible, but it was under the inspiration from God. He kept them from making errors. Divine Inspiration is rather a complicated subject, so I won't go into it further right now.

Miracles are still happening today. In fact, a person can not be canonized (be declared a Saint) unless a miracle is attributed to that person after his death. An example some modern miracles occur in the life of Saint Padre Pio. For instance, his Stigmata (the wounds that are the same as those received by Christ during His Passion). His wounds in his hands never stopped bleeding. Doctors, thinking that he might be injuring his hands to make them keep bleeding and believing that he was faking, would keep him under strict observation and make sure that there was no way for him to make his hands continue to bleed. His hands kept bleeding anyway, and yet, even through extraordinary amounts of blood loss, his wounds wouldn't heal or get infected or anything, and he didn't die or weaken.

Ok, done talking for the moment.

Originally Posted by Aex

Can there be no love in Heaven?

As far as I know, the basest being in the universe was an angel. So I'd say the only difference we experience between being here and in heaven is the state of being with God, and being able to really perceive and experience God. And, of course, the perfect happiness that results from being able to experience that. Being able to fully and perfectly live.

Gotta be a wonderful feeling.

But, for us and for God, that same love that we had for our fellow man, and that same love He had for us, never actually goes away, even after we enter the kingdom. We're still the stupid little children, but we've grown up to become something so much more.

It's the Super child-parent relationship.

Then why the need for Earth?

Originally Posted by Aex

Then why the need for Earth?

You don't like it?

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

You don't like it?

Meh. There are good days and bad days. I just kinda feel bad for the children who are, you know, starving to death. Kinda seems to me like they'd appreciate love a lot more in Heaven.

If you feel so bad for them, send them food.
(Trust me, mods, I'm going somewhere with this.)

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

If you feel so bad for them, send them food.
(Trust me, mods, I'm going somewhere with this.)

You assume I haven't? O-o

Originally Posted by Aex

You assume I haven't? O-o

You haven't done enough unless the problem is solved. Have you exhausted all available resources (even just the excess is fine) to tackle the problems that face the world?

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

You haven't done enough unless the problem is solved.

Fair enough. But I'm one man. Your god is omnipotent. I'm making an effort.

Originally Posted by Aex

Fair enough. But I'm one man. Your god is omnipotent. I'm making an effort.

My God is quite omnipotent.

But He shouldn't have to keep us from hogging all the food.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

My God is quite omnipotent.

But He shouldn't have to keep us from hogging all the food.

Tell that to the starving children. Somehow, I doubt that makes them feel any better about it.

Originally Posted by Aex

Tell that to the starving children. Somehow, I doubt that makes them feel any better about it.

Now we're just getting into the emotional appeals.

But it's not God's fault that there are starving children. It's ours. All of us who haven't given away our meals so that others less fortunate than us could eat something for a change. All of us who haven't donated more than we can really afford for the sake of charity.

We suck. We suck balls. We're all ****ty compared to what we need to be to effect real change in this world. Me especially. I'm a terrible Christian. Awful. Don't deserve to associate myself with those ideas. Not even remotely.

Want to fix the world? Fix yourself. Fix yourself so utterly that you can't take a lick of the blame for what goes wrong in this world. Fix yourself so you do all good and no harm.

A man named Jesus Christ showed us how, gave us the tools we lacked. died so we wouldn't have to. It is possible to follow in those footsteps. Hella hard, but possible. And somehow I think Jesus made the starving children feel better.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Now we're just getting into the emotional appeals.

But it's not God's fault that there are starving children. It's ours. All of us who haven't given away our meals so that others less fortunate than us could eat something for a change. All of us who haven't donated more than we can really afford for the sake of charity.

We suck. We suck balls. Want to fix the world? Fix yourself. Fix yourself so utterly that you can't take a lick of the blame for what goes wrong in this world. Fix yourself so you do all good and no harm.

A man named Jesus Christ showed us how, gave us the tools we lacked. It is possible. Hella hard, but possible. And somehow I think Jesus made the starving children feel better.

That's where I disagree. Obviously the human race, in its majority, does indeed suck balls. However, going by that logic, I would also say that God sucks balls, too. Humans have the ability to change poverty. They also had the chance to prevent it. We chose not to. Surprise surprise, so did God. That fact is made worse because he refuses to help those suffering children even though he realizes humans won't.

Originally Posted by Aex

That fact is made worse because he refuses to help those suffering children even though he realizes humans won't.

I seem to recall Him dying to put an end to death.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Now we're just getting into the emotional appeals.

But it's not God's fault that there are starving children. It's ours. All of us who haven't given away our meals so that others less fortunate than us could eat something for a change. All of us who haven't donated more than we can really afford for the sake of charity.

We suck. We suck balls. We're all ****ty compared to what we need to be to effect real change in this world. Me especially. I'm a terrible Christian. Awful. Don't deserve to associate myself with those ideas. Not even remotely.

Want to fix the world? Fix yourself. Fix yourself so utterly that you can't take a lick of the blame for what goes wrong in this world. Fix yourself so you do all good and no harm.

A man named Jesus Christ showed us how, gave us the tools we lacked. died so we wouldn't have to. It is possible to follow in those footsteps. Hella hard, but possible. And somehow I think Jesus made the starving children feel better.

those are some very kind words. But your forgetting that jesus was a savor sent from god. He was perfect. Trying to follow in his footsteps is ultimatly impossible. It's definately good to live by his teachings, but trying to be like jesus is as impossible as feeding every starving child in this world. Jesus once said "the wealthy will have as much trouble entering the realm of heaven, as a cammel will squeezing through the eye of a needle" in other words, the rich, like most of us, have tons of luxuries and are full of ourselves. And for us to enter heaven we need to give until theres nothing left to give, live life until you have nothing left to regret. A person actually acomplishing this is miracle in itself. However, it has nothing to do with god. God doesn't work miracles. People work miracles everyday. And thats good enough for me. I don't need jesus to heal the sick, or God to flood the earth for me to beleive in him, thats part of the faith. Beleiving even though there's absolutely no hard evidence that god or jesus ever really existed.

hat fact is made worse because he refuses to help those suffering children even though he realizes humans won't.

god doesnt choose to make people suffer. People choose to make people suffer. blaming god for our own mistakes is just idiotic.

Originally Posted by zeldask8r0990

Trying to follow in his footsteps is ultimatly impossible.

Absolutely not.

"For with God nothing will be impossible." Luke 1:37
"You, therefore, must be perfect." Matt. 5:20