Four Demensional Objects

You may be wondering "what the heck is this freak talking about" I'm talking about the four demensions: length, wigth, height, and time. I think all objects are four demensional because they exist through time, no matter what the atoms will stay in the universe. What if there was an object that had a limitation on its fourth demension? (as in it didn't exist for a period of time, and it might be back or not)

Please discuss your thoughts on my theory

Originally Posted by Zeddicus

What if there was an object that had a limitation on its fourth demension, as in it didn't exist for a period of time, and it might be back or not.

You mean like teleportation?

I think everything "exists," at all times, but will take on shapes (forms, etc.).

Dimensions are just ideas, really. "Time" isn't actually a dimension in the traditional geometrical sense, as the only three dimensions geometrically are "length" "height" and "width." Time is also just an idea, a measurement, rather than something physical. Time is measured by the Earth's movement around the Sun (or the movement of other celestial bodies, such as the Moon or stars), so Time is just a measurement of movement. Thus, it shouldn't be possible to "travel" time, as it's not a physical material, it's simply a measurement. Everything exists in Time, just as everything is in movement. Also, everything has three (or four, if Time counts) dimensions. Nothing can exist in one or two dimensions.

I'm pretty sure most of that is right.

So, anyway, what exactly are you expecting us to discuss? I'm confused on your second to last sentence, as it begins with the word "What if there was..." but doesn't have a question mark, so I'm not sure if it's meant to be a question or not.

Few things, while time is like the other three dimensions, and it is helpful to think of it that way, I'm not entirely sure that it is, in fact, the same as the others.

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Something with an infinite fourth dimension would simply exist everywhen, just as something with infinite width, length or height would be located everywhere on a certain plane that was coincident with that dimension.

Originally Posted by Lysis

Dimensions are just ideas, really. "Time" isn't actually a dimension in the traditional geometrical sense, as the only three dimensions geometrically are "length" "height" and "width."

Mostly right, you can add other dimensions, and up to twelve may actually exist.

Time is also just an idea, a measurement, rather than something physical.

There I may have to disagree with you. Time exists. We can measure it (given the relationship between speed, distance and time; or other relationships.) but the measurement, in and of itself, is not time.

Doesn't gravity affect time? Isn't that why satellites have to reset their clocks so often (is it a few instances a second?)?

My apologies. I'm not the smartest when it comes to science. I've only taken Biology, Physical Science, and Chemistry in high school. But whenever I was late with homework and need to catch up before grading in class, I would get my teacher to go on about stuff like time, the cosmos, and black holes so I could stall for time and my awesome teacher would get so excited with the subject that he would just go on and on about it. However, some things were so interesting to me that I mostly spent that time listening to him.

Yes, gravity affects time. Every object with mass pulls space time towards it (relativity, I think). This means that the more gravity there is the faster time travels, so if you go near a black hole and stay there for 5 minutes you could return to Earth 40 years after you left. This is why air-hostesses live longer, because they spend so much time away from the centre of the Earth, that time travels slower for them, so to everyone else they have a slightly longer life.

I believe time IS a dimension, exactly like the first three, and as such can be travelled along, forwards and backwards, but as a species we are unsure of how to do this. We can travel forwards in time, easily, just by going away from the Earth's core. Even jumping 1cm in the air effectively send you forwards in time, but only by an infintely tiny ammount. I also think that the idea about an object that has a limited fourth dimension is perfectly plausible.

Originally Posted by Guy Westcott

Yes, gravity affects time. Every object with mass pulls space time towards it (relativity, I think). This means that the more gravity there is the faster time travels, so if you go near a black hole and stay there for 5 minutes you could return to Earth 40 years after you left. This is why air-hostesses live longer, because they spend so much time away from the centre of the Earth, that time travels slower for them, so to everyone else they have a slightly longer life.

I believe time IS a dimension, exactly like the first three, and as such can be travelled along, forwards and backwards, but as a species we are unsure of how to do this. We can travel forwards in time, easily, just by going away from the Earth's core. Even jumping 1cm in the air effectively send you forwards in time, but only by an infintely tiny ammount. I also think that the idea about an object that has a limited fourth dimension is perfectly plausible.

This is one of my main points and I was to lazy to write it out and I would have if nobody said it today.

Originally Posted by Guy Westcott

Yes, gravity affects time. Every object with mass pulls space time towards it (relativity, I think). This means that the more gravity there is the faster time travels, so if you go near a black hole and stay there for 5 minutes you could return to Earth 40 years after you left. This is why air-hostesses live longer, because they spend so much time away from the centre of the Earth, that time travels slower for them, so to everyone else they have a slightly longer life.

I believe time IS a dimension, exactly like the first three, and as such can be travelled along, forwards and backwards, but as a species we are unsure of how to do this. We can travel forwards in time, easily, just by going away from the Earth's core. Even jumping 1cm in the air effectively send you forwards in time, but only by an infintely tiny ammount. I also think that the idea about an object that has a limited fourth dimension is perfectly plausible.

So what you are basically saying is gravity affects how fast you age? If that were true they people would just live at the highest mountain and live for 3 or 4 more years. Maybe we should do life expectancy by reagion and see if elevation plays a roll in life expectancy.

Originally Posted by benhelmuth

So what you are basically saying is gravity affects how fast you age? If that were true they people would just live at the highest mountain and live for 3 or 4 more years. Maybe we should do life expectancy by reagion and see if elevation plays a roll in life expectancy.

No you age at the same speed, for yourself. Time travels at different speeds, but the same ammount passes.
That probably didn't make sense, so I'll explain using the air-hostess analogy.

An air hostess does not live to a greater age than anyone else. If she dies at age x, she has lived for x years, but, down on Earth, she has lived longer. For her, it is the same ammount of time as she would have lived on Earth, but for the people on Earth it is longer.

Again, I am probably not making much sense. Sorry, but it's difficult to explain simpler than that. Perhaps someone else can make a better job of it than I?

EDIT: If two idential twins live for 20 years, and work constantly for those 20 years, making toys for example, and one goes into space, then that one will outlive the other, but both will produce the same number of toys, so in effect, their lives were the same length. Does that make it any clearer?

Originally Posted by Guy Westcott

No you age at the same speed, for yourself. Time travels at different speeds, but the same ammount passes.
That probably didn't make sense, so I'll explain using the air-hostess analogy.

An air hostess does not live to a greater age than anyone else. If she dies at age x, she has lived for x years, but, down on Earth, she has lived longer. For her, it is the same ammount of time as she would have lived on Earth, but for the people on Earth it is longer.

Again, I am probably not making much sense. Sorry, but it's difficult to explain simpler than that. Perhaps someone else can make a better job of it than I?

EDIT: If two idential twins live for 20 years, and work constantly for those 20 years, making toys for example, and one goes into space, then that one will outlive the other, but both will produce the same number of toys, so in effect, their lives were the same length. Does that make it any clearer?

I understood it the first time. But to clear up what i was thinking. How can time a human concept of distance and space be affected by gravity a human concept of how two objects are attracted to each other?

Originally Posted by benhelmuth

I understood it the first time. But to clear up what i was thinking. How can time a human concept of distance and space be affected by gravity a human concept of how two objects are attracted to each other?

Well according to, I believe, Einstein, every object with mass pulls space-time towards it, and the more mass an object has, the more quickly space-time is attracted. The speed at which space-time is attracted is relative to the speed at which time travels.

Or something like that anyway, I need to check up. I have forgotten some of the finer details.

Anyway, basically gravity does not just pull two objects together but also an object and space-time.

Originally Posted by Guy Westcott

Yes, gravity affects time. Every object with mass pulls space time towards it (relativity, I think).

Not quite. Gravity doesn't actually "pull" anything, it's simply a bending of space and time. The more gravity something is exposed to the more time and space are bent. This ends up, in many ways, simulating approaching the speed of light.

So, for example, the closer you are to a black hole the slower time goes.

This means that the more gravity there is the faster time travels, so if you go near a black hole and stay there for 5 minutes you could return to Earth 40 years after you left.

Other way around, and even then not quite true. To you it will be, say, a year, and to everyone else it will be a few minutes.

This is why air-hostesses live longer, because they spend so much time away from the centre of the Earth, that time travels slower for them, so to everyone else they have a slightly longer life.

Nope. Even if time went faster towards the Earth, the difference at only a few km up isn't enough to matter. In addition, to the pilots/hostesses/etc. It would seem to be the same amount of time as if they'd live a normally long life.

I believe time IS a dimension, exactly like the first three, and as such can be travelled along, forwards and backwards, but as a species we are unsure of how to do this.

It isn't a spacial dimension. That much is certain.

We can travel forwards in time, easily, just by going away from the Earth's core.

Nope. That doesn't make you jump forwards in time. If it did then skydivers would arrive before they jumped.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

So, for example, the closer you are to a black hole the slower time goes.


Other way around, and even then not quite true. To you it will be, say, a year, and to everyone else it will be a few minutes.

I made a mistake somewhere, but I'm not sure where... I said at a black hole time goes faster, but if it is indeed slower then that would mean that to you, other people's lives would be going at an accelerated rate, so if it is slower then it must be minutes for you and longer for them.

Nope. Even if time went faster towards the Earth, the difference at only a few km up isn't enough to matter. In addition, to the pilots/hostesses/etc. It would seem to be the same amount of time as if they'd live a normally long life.

This isn't just according to me, there were studies done, using atomic clocks, that proved this theory. And I agree that to the pilots/hostesses/etc it would seem like a normally long life, but to other people it would seem longer, which is what I tried to say on one of my later posts.

It isn't a spacial dimension. That much is certain.

Certain? How can you be sure?

Nope. That doesn't make you jump forwards in time. If it did then skydivers would arrive before they jumped.

It's by such a small ammount that it isn't noticed.

EDIT: I definitely need to reread this stuff, because I'm sure I'm right, but I must have been wrong about something, because I think I've contradicted myself. When I do check my facts, i'll let you know whatever i find out.

Originally Posted by Guy Westcott

I made a mistake somewhere, but I'm not sure where... I said at a black hole time goes faster, but if it is indeed slower then that would mean that to you, other people's lives would be going at an accelerated rate, so if it is slower then it must be minutes for you and longer for them.

Not necessarily, I'm not sure how you'd see other people's lives going, just that, to them, you would seem to live longer.

This isn't just according to me, there were studies done, using atomic clocks, that proved this theory. And I agree that to the pilots/hostesses/etc it would seem like a normally long life, but to other people it would seem longer, which is what I tried to say on one of my later posts.

You've got it backwards, though. Time goes slower the closer you are to a source of gravity. In addition, the difference is so small that it's meaningless. If you spent your entire life in an airplane you'd probably have a life of about 1 second longer (if even that much, it's almost certainly much less) then someone who never used one.

Certain? How can you be sure?

Because that's what the math shows. Time can be thought of as a dimension, but it isn't a spacial one.

It's by such a small ammount that it isn't noticed.

Again, no, that's simply not true. If you're higher above the Earth then someone else, then, yes, time will go somewhat faster for you. However, that doesn't mean that you're jumping forwards in time, any more then accelerating your car causes you to teleport instantly from point 'A' to point 'B'.

Time is a human concept of the earths movement around the sun. And the rotation of the earth. There is no time if we did not define time. I am currently 19 years old the only reason I am that old is because someone defined a year as being 1 rotation around the sun. If I defined it as half a rotation around the sun I would currently be 38 years old. Age is relative as is time.

Originally Posted by benhelmuth

Time is a human concept of the earths movement around the sun. And the rotation of the earth. There is no time if we did not define time. I am currently 19 years old the only reason I am that old is because someone defined a year as being 1 rotation around the sun. If I defined it as half a rotation around the sun I would currently be 38 years old. Age is relative as is time.

In that sense yes, but time exists not because we made it so, time exists as we define it but also in ways that we can't comprehend. The way you define it, is the way we measure time. The measurement of time is relative, but time itself is not. You would be the same age no matter how we measure time, your body would still be here as long as it was if I said you were five fish old, if we measured time with fish I would be right because that would be the measurement, but you would still be the same age no matter what its called.

In other words time exists and passes whether or not we define it or how we do define it.

Originally Posted by benhelmuth

Time is a human concept of the earths movement around the sun. And the rotation of the earth. There is no time if we did not define time. I am currently 19 years old the only reason I am that old is because someone defined a year as being 1 rotation around the sun. If I defined it as half a rotation around the sun I would currently be 38 years old. Age is relative as is time.

Again, not true.

Time exists, and we can measure it. It's not just a concept. If that was the case then there would be no time before someone thought of it, which means that nothing would change until someone thought of time.

I'll let you figure out the problems with that.

Time can be a spacial dimension. Modern physics has proved that again and again - we've discovered, I believe, 26 dimensions. And particles that are in every one of them, or at the least theorized particles.

The fourth spacial dimension does not need to be named. However, it can be modeled, and fairly easily grasped (in my case, anyway). First, you must understand how our current 3-Dimensional world works...

Take a point. A singular point in space, or an object with 0 dimensions. Now, translate it perpendicularly to itself IN THE NEXT HIGHEST DIMENSION. Do this again, and again, and again. You will come up with a line, and object with 1 dimension.

Take this line and translate it perpendicular to itself in the next highest dimension. Again, and again. Now what do you have? A square. A 2-dimensional object.

Take that square, and translate it perpendicularly to itself in the next highest dimension. Do this again and again. And you'll get a cube, a 3-dimensional object.

Take this cube, and translate it perpendicularly to itself. Do this again and again - but how, you ask? You have to enter the fourth spacial dimension. When you do, you will have formed a tesseract, which is the 4-D form of a cube. In short, it's eight cubes folded into one shape, much like how a cube is six squares folded up into one shape, and a square is four lines folded up into one shape.

It's very hard to imagine the perspective of a tesseract, because it looks more or less like a cube within a cube. But you have to realize that you cannot project or imagine what a 4D cube, or a tesseract, actually looks like, because you cannot enter the fourth spacial dimension... therefore, if you were to look at a tesseract, things would look warped. This is, in fact, just the perspective of the fourth dimension, making things look bent and misshapen in our third dimension.

Here's a quick diagram:



As the diagram shows, you can't see ONE of the squares or cubes that makes up the final product, and the other remaining five and seven look oddly warped. One of them looks very small, while the others have had their dimensions skewed - they look shorter, trapezoidal. But this is only because of perspective! Looking at the cube from the top, we can see that the final square "missing" from this shape is just on top of everything else, the "lid" on the box, so to speak.

So, why shouldn't it be the same for the tesseract? The final cube is over every other cube, wrapped around the entire shape, in the third dimension at least, which is as far as we can see. But in the fourth dimension, it's really only covering this 4-D "lid" of the tesseract. hence, you cannot draw this "lid" when you draw the shape one dimension lower than it actually is.

To clarify what that means, if you make a drawing of a cube, but make it a 3-D drawing, you would be able to show where the "lid" of the cube is. it would look just like any other face of the cube. The same goes for any other dimensional shape - if you were to draw the tesseract in its four dimensions, you would be able to more accurately see where this "lid" goes.

To even FURTHER clarify, I've always loved what this one image on Wikipedia showed... it's an animation of the two shapes' nets folding up:




I'd love to go on and on about four dimensionality... it's one of my most favorite subjects, and I can envision it very well. Believe me, I can go on and on. I just wish I had the time to! My Pre-Calc teacher WISHES she could see math the way I do ... she's actually stated that.

To anyone who is interested, a while back I wrote an article that stems from the whole dimension thing: Is everything just a cross section?

Happy dimensioning!

On the black hole question. The hapless fool falling into it will appear to be moving in slow motion to an observer. That may mean that the fool falling towards the hole may see several years or centuries pass at the observers location as indeed it would take the whole event to take that long from the observers view point even if it was a scant few minutes for the fool.


Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now for the pilots and other air travellers. Due to the speed at which they are travelling while 1 second has passed for us 0.999999999 of a second has passed for them. The twin paradox makes it a little easier to understand.

Twin paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its stuff like that which makes time difficult to measure and is a maybe based on the peroid it takes a particular atom to vibrate. But agains thats arbitary. We would need a precise measure now. Of course their are several different views on this.

Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But seriously though has the passage of time ever been proven? If you want to say memories are proof. How do you know your memories are real? You may say you remember them but can you prove to me that you really have done it? Maybe it never really happened. My point is you cannot prove the past exists. So if the past does not exist how do we know time exists?