Do Animals Get Into Heaven?

Digest this and see what you think of it:

Originally Posted by Solomon, the Preacher, from Ecclesiastes 3

I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Lots in there. Part concerns the mortal, and part the immortal. Discern for yourselves.

An athiest friend of mine posed a similar idea about whether or not his christian parents could really go to "Heaven" if their unconditionally-loved son wouldn't be there with them. It can be altered a bit for this topic, though.

It may depend on the animal. If a person dies and goes to Heaven, would their eternal happiness include playing with Scruffy, the childhood dog? I don't think I'm equipped to determine if an animal has a soul - if not, or if it had a benevolent soul, the dog could easily be reincarnated in Heaven. If the dog had a malevolent soul, though, it would go to Hell.

But can animals without the mental capacity to make reflective decisions be promised an afterlife anywhere but in Purgatory?

Originally Posted by benhelmuth

Is this a personal belief or do you have evidence to back it up? If so what evidence and where is it from?

It's an up-in-the-air belief. Meaning I don't know whether to accept it or not. However, I do believe that animals go to Heaven.

Do you have evidence to prove it wrong? No?

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I thought not.

I wish people would shut it about the evidence thing since, in their own hypocrisy, they cannot prove against it.

So, about 1/3rd of the posts in here have now been deleted.

Stay on topic, and don't make stupid posts, please.

Originally Posted by TheFourthBottle

But can animals without the mental capacity to make reflective decisions be promised an afterlife anywhere but in Purgatory?

How do you know that they don't have mental capacity to go into Heaven? When human babies were born, they were the same as any wild animals out there. The only reason why we are able to "think" is from the experiences that we will gain in our society throughout our lives and from the way how society defines which social norm as "normal" to accept. And through that, we try to maintain the status of "normal" in the view of others in our society, or "pack" if you want to see it in the format of unrestrained animal kingdom's term, by doing things in a reflex with what we now call: "Thought".

Animals, regardless if their bain capacity might be lower than ours, can still learn to a certain degree through experiences and reflexes that are generated from the events that they have encountered. I'm sure that the same animal, like dogs for an example, will not go near the electric fence the second time when they were brutally shocked the first time. Sure, to us, they look stupid because some species of the animals need a much, much longer time to learn and even if they can utilize whatever knowledge that they have gained, it's limited to their capabilities via mobility and the such.

A question here - do you know how human brain functions?

There's only a limited amount of memory cells in the human brain to store information about our daily routines. Once any old information that has not been accessed for a long time, they will be forgotten due to the excessive amount of memory that the cells cannot store. New information comes in all the time and pushes out the old ones. This goes for short-term and long-term memories.

So, from what I've read so far, the only reason why animals cannot or possibly cannot go into Heaven is because they cannot "think"? How do you define thinking? How do you justify any creature that can see, hear, touch, walk, taste, and/or smell whether if they are worthy to go into Heaven, a human definition once again, or just disappear when they die?

Originally Posted by MMKB

Humans are animals too, what sort of animals are you talking about?
I'm assuming you're talking about animals that can't reason or have self-awareness to the same degree as humans. (Speaking hypothetically again) If so, going by Christian values, surely animals that do their best to care for and nurture each other (I.e. pack behaviour) are following quite a few of these values? It isn't really their fault that they don't have the same capacity for higher thought as humans to be able to accept Christ as a saviour, so is it fair that they be excluded from heaven?

I was referring to whatever animals you were referring to in your post, and/or to the animals referred to in the topic title "Do Animals Get Into Hevean?" Going by "Christian values" only humans have the ability to accept salvation, and only humans were actually offered salvation. However, also going by those same "Christian values" only humans actually ever sinned anyway, so other animals aren't deserving of damnation as humans are. So, if animals other then humans had souls, then they would be worthy of Heaven, according to "Christian values." However, not dependent on any kind of values, I don't think animals other then humans actually have souls anyway.

Originally Posted by Pelagias

Now this is an interesting topic. Do animals go to Heaven? As said before, animals, in most cases, are blameless before the eyes of God, and are only doing what is in their nature to do so, or what their instincts encourage them to. The Bible says 'Thou shall not kill', but I'm sure almost every living carnivore on the planet has violated that rule more than once, and also plenty enough herbivores too. An elephant will kill a lion if it can, despite being a strict herbivore. A cow can charge, attack and kill a person. So can a pig. Or a dolphin. There's no end to what Nature has produced, and of what it is capable of. Humans are simply an extra product that Nature has produced, despite being by far about the most ingenious, creative and, for lack of a better word, more twisted, than most other animals in nature?

Actually, the Bible doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill." That's a very common misunderstanding. If one of God's own laws was not to kill, then God Himself would be guilty of breaking His it. The actual commandment is "Thou shalt not murder." I'm sure you know the difference between killing and murder, but if you don't it shouldn't be hard to find out.

Dogs are not 'always' loving and forgiving. I myself was attacked by nothing less than a Golden Retriver as a young child when I was walking down the street with my mother one day, when a man and this dog walked by when the dog suddenly snarled and lashed out at me for no apparant reason. Does this mean that this dog will go to Hell for an unprovoked attack? I don't believe so, no more so than my pet dog downstairs that is an absolute sweetheart. Of course, this brings up the question: Why would a human have a 'soul', and an animal not? As far as I knew, humans are animals too, and I'm not sure why simply having a higher sapience and a greater understanding would afford one creature possessing a 'supernatural' status over that of something else that's simply less intelligent.

It entirely depends on whether the "soul" exists. If it does, you have to ask why it exists. According to the Bible the soul would exist because humans were made in God's own image, and because God gave humans souls. Thus, only humans would have a soul. If, though, you don't use the Bible's account, then it's entirely possible that either all animals have souls, or no animals (including humans) have souls.

If some animals are 'blameless', would creatures having higher intelligence go to Hell too? Primates, dolphins and some species of parrot are highly intelligent and we don't even know how fully capable of intelligence they are, despite even being able to talk, such as a particular African Grey parrot that can speak, form it's own sentences, converse with a human and more. Dolphins are highly intelligent, yet will kill smaller creatures simply for enjoyment or sex. Bonobos engage in infidelity and have group sex, even performing homosexuality in many cases, being very bisexual. If intelligence is the degree that enables one to sin and understand sin, then obviously violation of this code will make the sinners go to Hell. Again, I ask that do more intelligent creatures go to Hell? Personally, I don't think so.

Myself, I simply believe that humans nor animals possess 'souls', and that there are more unique factors, codes, nature, learning and genetics that all contribute into shaping us into being the way we are, and that there is no 'divine' being hovering over our heads just waiting to punish us for infinity for finite sins. It just doesn't add up to me that only humans would be the ones 'singled out' by God for punishment for things like this when we are but animals ourselves.

I'm sure it would add up more if you actually understood it. Not that you would have to believe it, but if you at least understood it then it would at least make sense.

Originally Posted by benhelmuth

The reason that animals would not be able to get into heaven is because God did not create them to worship him. Getting into heaven does not require aquiring the Holy Spirit, it only requires the beliefe that Jesus Christ the one and only son of God died for your sins and through his blood your sins are forgiven. Since animals cannot understand that they cannot enter the kindom of heaven. Also animal exist phisically but not spiritually so there for when that body dies the animal no longer exists.

Actually, according to the Bible, you do have to have the Holy Spirit to enter Heaven, but you pretty much summed up how to get the Holy Spirit ("...the beliefe that Jesus Christ the one and only son of God died for your sins and through his blood your sins are forgiven.") Of course, that doesn't cover everything. According to the Bible, its not all about belief. As the Bible says, "even the demons believe in God."

Originally Posted by Aerorian

What makes an animal unworthy? How do we justify who's worthy or not? Status labelling to determine worthiness is one of the ugliest forms that humans can display.

I'm not trying to justify who's worthy and who's not. I was replying to MMKB, who said that many animals were more deserving (worthy) of heaven than humans. I was asking how MMKB could make that claim. Let's just say that I still haven't got an answer to that yet...

Originally Posted by Blizzaga

I believe that only applies to us humans and not animals. Even if you did die not believing in Christ, you still have a chance to learn in the Spirit World before resurrection and judgment. Animals are exempt from all this though, I believe.

I think the Bible is pretty clear that once you die it's too late.

Originally Posted by Blizzaga

It's an up-in-the-air belief. Meaning I don't know whether to accept it or not. However, I do believe that animals go to Heaven.

Do you have evidence to prove it wrong? No?

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I thought not.

I wish people would shut it about the evidence thing since, in their own hypocrisy, they cannot prove against it.

Well, assuming you at least have some Christian beliefs, isn't the passage from Ecclesiastes that BBD posted evidence enough?

...the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth...

Originally Posted by ShadowVaati

I think the Bible is pretty clear that once you die it's too late.

The Holy Bible isn't the only scripture around.

Well, assuming you at least have some Christian beliefs, isn't the passage from Ecclesiastes that BBD posted evidence enough?

That's not what I meant. I was actually referring to something else. I tire of people trying to shut down a conversation by butting and saying something like "Can you prove of God's existence?" when they cannot disprove of it.

Guy One: I believe in God.

Guy Two: Can you prove that God exists?

Guy One: Sure. The scriptures are big enough of a hint. If that's not enough. The entire cosmos is evidence of God's existence.

Guy Two: But you can't show to me God right now, can you? Hence, you cannot prove His existence. All your other points are irrelevant.

Guy One: They aren't irrelevant. And besides, that's where faith comes in.

Guy Two: Faith, shmaith. You, sir...phail.

Now that's what I was referring to. Behelmuth's retort reminds me a lot of that. Or at least that's where the conversation would evolve into, as a lot of religion-related topics I've seen here do.

I'm sure people recognize from the above link that I'm LDS. In other words, yes, I'm of Christian faith.

What I meant when I said this:

It's an up-in-the-air belief. Meaning I don't know whether to accept it or not. However, I do believe that animals go to Heaven.

...Is that I believe that animals go to Heaven, but I won't lose sleep over it since I'll find out when I die.

Originally Posted by ShadowVaati

I'm not trying to justify who's worthy and who's not. I was replying to MMKB, who said that many animals were more deserving (worthy) of heaven than humans. I was asking how MMKB could make that claim. Let's just say that I still haven't got an answer to that yet...

Seeing as I don't believe in any kind of afterlife I'm always speaking hypothetically.
My point was that humans are animals too, we have base instincts and drives just like animals do. It isn't a non-human animals fault that it doesn't possess the same intellect as a human, so if it lives by its instincts (which must be God given if God created all animals right?), then it is doing no wrong by God.
As humans can deliberately choose to not follow the Word of God, they can do wrong by God. So wouldn't animals that live the life that God intended them to be more deserving of heaven than people that deliberately choose not to follow God's Word?

Originally Posted by MMKB

Seeing as I don't believe in any kind of afterlife I'm always speaking hypothetically.
My point was that humans are animals too, we have base instincts and drives just like animals do. It isn't a non-human animals fault that it doesn't possess the same intellect as a human, so if it lives by its instincts (which must be God given if God created all animals right?), then it is doing no wrong by God.
As humans can deliberately choose to not follow the Word of God, they can do wrong by God. So wouldn't animals that live the life that God intended them to be more deserving of heaven than people that deliberately choose not to follow God's Word?

Animals are neither self-conscious or moral, they can't make right or wrong choices. The motivation for their actions is instinct, not reason. Animals slaughter other animals for food, this doesn't make them mass murderers in our eyes, because they're....well...animals.

Read Kaiser's post, he explains it quite well. I would've written my own gigantic commentary on self-awareness, but I saw his. Read it.

Originally Posted by Leinator

Animals are neither self-conscious or moral, they can't make right or wrong choices. The motivation for their actions is instinct, not reason. Animals slaughter other animals for food, this doesn't make them mass murderers in our eyes, because they're....well...animals.

So... we slaughter each other for lands, resources, and pure satisfactions of dominance over one another throughout human history. We have induced jealousy, hatred, rage, bitterness, and all the sinful behaviors. We have had the 15th century to 17th century Witch Hunt, where innocent people were wrongly accused, trialed, and eventually murdered by either burning, hanging, or stoning. We even have had an inhumane slave system. We have often displayed sudden impulses such as lust for something in a form of consumerism.

Wouldn't you say that despite the fact that we can "reason" our lives and the purposes within our lives, we have committed more sins than what animals can do; not to mention the fact that animals are living creatures created by God as well, and naturally, as you've said it, they live out their lives through instincts; therefore, they should have gone to Heaven when they die and we still need to be judged whether to go to Heaven or Hell when we die?

I mean, animals should never have the capabilities to commit sins in the first place. They fought and killed for survival. We fought and killed each other for materialistic wants and repulsive feeling of being "better" than others.

Originally Posted by MMKB

Seeing as I don't believe in any kind of afterlife I'm always speaking hypothetically.
My point was that humans are animals too, we have base instincts and drives just like animals do. It isn't a non-human animals fault that it doesn't possess the same intellect as a human, so if it lives by its instincts (which must be God given if God created all animals right?), then it is doing no wrong by God.
As humans can deliberately choose to not follow the Word of God, they can do wrong by God. So wouldn't animals that live the life that God intended them to be more deserving of heaven than people that deliberately choose not to follow God's Word?

Okay, then, hypothetically, animals that "live the life that God intended them to" wouldn't be deserving of Heaven simply because God didn't intend for animals to go to Heaven, according to the Bible.

Originally Posted by Leinator

Animals are neither self-conscious or moral, they can't make right or wrong choices. The motivation for their actions is instinct, not reason. Animals slaughter other animals for food, this doesn't make them mass murderers in our eyes, because they're....well...animals.

Read Kaiser's post, he explains it quite well. I would've written my own gigantic commentary on self-awareness, but I saw his. Read it.

I never said animals were moral, nor that they could make right or wrong choices (though that is debatable, as are the concepts of right and wrong).
You are selling other animals short though when it comes to self-consciousness.
Check out these articles:
Dolphin Self-Recognition Mirrors Our Own: Scientific American

Consciousness in Animals and People with Autism

Here's some food for thought:
Science: Can Animals and Robots Be Self-Aware? - Newsweek Sharon Begley - MSNBC.com

Reasoning in non-human animals? - Animal Intelligence » Dolphins Learn Tool Use from Parents
Discovery Channel :: News - Earth :: Animal Intelligence Resists Definition

Originally Posted by ShadowVaati

Okay, then, hypothetically, animals that "live the life that God intended them to" wouldn't be deserving of Heaven simply because God didn't intend for animals to go to Heaven, according to the Bible.

When then, does animal end and human begin? If you're a Creationist then you would believe humans are completely different to animals (made on a different day during genesis, made out of dust in God's image etc.), so anything I say here will sound meaningless to you.

If you believe in Theistic evolution then I have a few questions for you.
If God inspired evolution, then did earlier species of humans go to heaven? Are there Homo Erectus in heaven? What about Neanderthals? Or are these people merely animals despite how incredibly closely related they are to modern humans?
Was it that God suddenly decided at Cro-Magnon man that that particular species of Homo were to go to heaven?

Here's a thought: What about amoebas? They are living things, too. :0P

Every single rat should go there, too. ;0)

That's a cell, BBD... I mean, when we are discussing about "animals", naturally and logically, we are dicussing about ones with brains, regardless of how primitive they might be compared to humans only. Going to the far end of the extreme doesn't really show any common sense sense at all here, since most of the discussion is about "consicousness" and "worthy or not" based on larger multi-celled organisms such as dogs or elephants or tigers, etc.

And rats do learn, whether if it's behaviorial or instinctive or just a low-level state of thought, they do learn given enough time of training.

But just for the heck of it; let's say that all living beings should be treated equally, including amoebas, then what makes us so different than all other living things out there? If we go to Heaven, so can they. But if we go to Hell, because amoebas can't think, they don't sin, therefore, they go to Heaven.

Well, in Christianity, animals are a "gift from God", and so were placed on the Earth to serve Humans. Thus, God intended them to be killed and eaten, because they don't have a "spirit" like us Humans do. So no, they wouldn't go to Heaven.

I'm an Atheist, so please excuse my facts' reliability as I only know this information off of my Christian friend.

Originally Posted by Aerorian

So... we slaughter each other for lands, resources, and pure satisfactions of dominance over one another throughout human history. We have induced jealousy, hatred, rage, bitterness, and all the sinful behaviors. We have had the 15th century to 17th century Witch Hunt, where innocent people were wrongly accused, trialed, and eventually murdered by either burning, hanging, or stoning. We even have had an inhumane slave system. We have often displayed sudden impulses such as lust for something in a form of consumerism.

Almost every want and desire we have is based upon the same instincts animals have. The want for material possession and betterment is just a further expression of "survival of the fittest" so to speak. Animals seek comfort and pleasure in similar ways that we do, but because we have reason, we've found more efficient ways of gaining comfort and pleasure. The reason we aren't blameless in what we do is because with self-awareness comes the question of morality, is it really right to infringe on another being's freedoms and wants? Animals don't have self-awareness in the first place, they have no sense of morality. They don't even have a concept of an afterlife or a want to get into it. Again, read Kaiser's post earlier in the topic.

Wouldn't you say that despite the fact that we can "reason" our lives and the purposes within our lives, we have committed more sins than what animals can do; not to mention the fact that animals are living creatures created by God as well, and naturally, as you've said it, they live out their lives through instincts; therefore, they should have gone to Heaven when they die and we still need to be judged whether to go to Heaven or Hell when we die?

Animal's can's sin. No morality. No reason. It isn't the actions that define the morality in what we do, it's the motivation behind those actions. We are accountable for what we do because we've developed a sense of value for life, and a sense of right and wrong.

I mean, animals should never have the capabilities to commit sins in the first place. They fought and killed for survival. We fought and killed each other for materialistic wants and repulsive feeling of being "better" than others.

Animals fight and kill for more land and territory. We do the same. Our base reasons for doing things really are the same.

In terms of animals having self-awareness, this simply hasn't been proven yet. They aren't sentient.

Originally Posted by Leinator

In terms of animals having self-awareness, this simply hasn't been proven yet. They aren't sentient.

So, if an animal is sentient, it has to follow religion in order to make it into heaven? How do you describe sentient? Chimpanzees are at least as intelegent as a toddler, so does that mean that they are responsible for their actions as much as humans are?

Originally Posted by Leinator

Almost every want and desire we have is based upon the same instincts animals have. The want for material possession and betterment is just a further expression of "survival of the fittest" so to speak. Animals seek comfort and pleasure in similar ways that we do, but because we have reason, we've found more efficient ways of gaining comfort and pleasure. The reason we aren't blameless in what we do is because with self-awareness comes the question of morality, is it really right to infringe on another being's freedoms and wants? Animals don't have self-awareness in the first place, they have no sense of morality. They don't even have a concept of an afterlife or a want to get into it. Again, read Kaiser's post earlier in the topic.

You don't need a concept for an afterlife to get into afterlife. It's just illogical to say that you need to believe in something to get into something because belief is a system created by humans based on faith. And so far, faith has no absolute ground whatsoever. Therefore, animals do get into Heaven, because I then can say I believe they do and they will. It's all about faith. You don't need a religion to get to somewhere afterlife. If there is a Heaven, if there is a Hell, it's pointless whether if you have the concept of that or not since you'd be placed in one of those two when you die anyway.

Animal's can's sin. No morality. No reason. It isn't the actions that define the morality in what we do, it's the motivation behind those actions. We are accountable for what we do because we've developed a sense of value for life, and a sense of right and wrong.

That doesn't matter. They are living organisms as well, on a level where they can at least make partial judgements to be able to go into Heaven. Cells and plants aside, animals are just like us, and we are animals as well.

Animals fight and kill for more land and territory. We do the same. Our base reasons for doing things really are the same.

They fought to protect their territory. And even if they invade, they did it for the sole purpose of survival. We fought and slaughter each other for resources that we pretty much have in our own homeland. The two scenarios are completely on a different level in terms of justification and morality. And if we are so great ourselves in the idea that we can think and can reason of right and wrong, why should we even try to kill each other for lands? Why couldn't we sit down and discuss about the issues like the "sentient" beings that we so claimed to be? If we can't even do that, then we are nothing more than just animals who just have superior mentality. In this case, animals deserve to be in Heaven more than us. They fought to live. We fought for greed.

In terms of animals having self-awareness, this simply hasn't been proven yet. They aren't sentient.

How do you know they aren't sentient? They learned over time, slower than us, but they do learn. You teach dogs tricks. You teach cats to use their litter boxes. Some even train rats to go through mazes. We taught our babies new knowledge. Before that, they were the same as any animals out there on the planet. Are you going to say that you can just toss a baby out there in the wild and somehow, magically, he or she can talk and do all the technical details that some of the professionals in our society can do?

Originally Posted by Aerorian

You don't need a concept for an afterlife to get into afterlife. It's just illogical to say that you need to believe in something to get into something because belief is a system created by humans based on faith. And so far, faith has no absolute ground whatsoever. Therefore, animals do get into Heaven, because I then can say I believe they do and they will. It's all about faith. You don't need a religion to get to somewhere afterlife. If there is a Heaven, if there is a Hell, it's pointless whether if you have the concept of that or not since you'd be placed in one of those two when you die anyway.

"Belief" isn't a "system created by humans." It's a word that means determining whether or not something is true or not. Faith is the concept that you believe beyond reason, while belief itself just means whether or not you...believe in it. Animals have no beliefs or disbeliefs in the first place. You don't see animals walking around as christians or muslims, or animals choosing vegetarianism over meat eating for moral reasons. They don't have morals, standards, or beliefs. For this reason, you really can't judge if an animal is doing "right" or "wrong." Animals do what they do based on the ecosystem and instincts, they don't make conscious choices based on reason.

That doesn't matter. They are living organisms as well, on a level where they can at least make partial judgements to be able to go into Heaven. Cells and plants aside, animals are just like us, and we are animals as well.

What partial judgments? Does a pack of wolves have a little moral talking circle to decide whether or not it's right to hunt a pack of bunny rabbits? No, they just do. We, however, have actual differences between each individual person. We have individualism. We have advanced society, We have creativity. All things that come with being sentient. Most of all, however, we are aware of ourselves. We can have rational thought, and choose what to do in situations based on judgement. Any animal, however, when presented with the same situation, will do the same thing as another animal of it's race. They're programmed by instinct, so to speak.

They fought to protect their territory. And even if they invade, they did it for the sole purpose of survival. We fought and slaughter each other for resources that we pretty much have in our own homeland. The two scenarios are completely on a different level in terms of justification and morality. And if we are so great ourselves in the idea that we can think and can reason of right and wrong, why should we even try to kill each other for lands? Why couldn't we sit down and discuss about the issues like the "sentient" beings that we so claimed to be? If we can't even do that, then we are nothing more than just animals who just have superior mentality. In this case, animals deserve to be in Heaven more than us. They fought to live. We fought for greed.

Animals fight over female animals. Animals fight over the territory of other animals in their species. Animals "greedily" fight over food. Animals often fight over things they "want" rather than "need" as well. Just like we do. They're not doing anything wrong, however, because they're instinctive. We've got reason though, and many people have realized that killing another human being is simply wrong. This is the moral difference between animals and creatures with higher thinking.

How do you know they aren't sentient? They learned over time, slower than us, but they do learn. You teach dogs tricks. You teach cats to use their litter boxes. Some even train rats to go through mazes. We taught our babies new knowledge. Before that, they were the same as any animals out there on the planet. Are you going to say that you can just toss a baby out there in the wild and somehow, magically, he or she can talk and do all the technical details that some of the professionals in our society can do?

A dog learns tricks because you repeat movement so many times that it becomes mechanic. He learns the tricks to get a treat, which is just instinct. A dog will never create a tool though. A dog won't learn to communicate other than feral signaling techniques that are also instinctive, and proven so. A dog will never develop any new skill unless it's programmed instinctively or programmed by a human. Assuming Darwinian evolution is true, they may someday evolve self-consciousness and learn to....learn, but it doesn't change the fact that they can't now. If you raise a dog as if it was a human, it will still always act like a dog.

They get a free ride only man who has Knowledge and reasoning and can deni God where an animal may learn whats good or whats Notty is ther intelgence so they have souls to, so they go to heaven or why would babes go to heaven see god made lopoles!