Catholics, Homosexuals and Adoption

So.
Here in merry old England (or Britain, perhaps?), and the whole of the European Union for that matter, there is a political hoohaa over that horrible thing called discrimination. The source of this is the EU laws coming through relating to Gay Rights, the rights to goods and services with no discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.
Currently, there are many Catholic adoption agencies operating in England/Britain, and obviously as a matter of religious principle they would not let gay couples adopt children, believing as they do that homosexuality is a sin. Obviously in light of the legislation they would not be allowed to refuse homosexual couples on the grounds of sexuality.

However, the EU have left it up to the individual member states whether or not to give Catholic agencies the right to refuse services to homosexuals.(Why, I dont know. It all seems a bit contradictory.) Good old Tony Blair and his super executive have decided not to allow Catholics to discriminate against gays, on the grounds that you cannot allow a little discrimination, it must all be banned.
Although i may not like the current Labour government (John McDonnell for PM!!!!!!), i do agree that the Catholics should not be allowed to discriminate against homosexual couples. Their religious beliefs are not more important just because they have "religious" tagged to them, they are, after all, still beliefs. The Catholics argue that their freedom of conscience is being taken away. I dont believe it is, they are still free to believe and think what they want without any horrible coercive consequences.
So, do you think that Catholics should be free to refuse gay couples? I dont.

i'm sorry but this is THEIR adoption center! Gays should be allowed to adopt yes, but if I certain religion does not condone homosexuals adopting children then the government does not have the right to interfere.

I emphasize the THEIR. The homosexuals should just look to a more liberal adoption center. It's like forcing a priest to marry gay couples even though he doesn't agree with gay marriage...

If homosexuals are allowed to do what they believe is ok than so should the catholic people.

As ridiculous as it is, not letting the catholics do this is just as discriminatory as disallowing gay adoption from a government compound.

HS, my adoptee . Nice to see you being so expressive and free-thinking.

I think there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. There's no reason two men (or two women) who really love each other should be kept from being together, just because their sexes are the same. Catholics don't have to recognise gay marriage, as it goes against their tradition. But to illegalize something that won't do anything but good for people just because your holy book doesn't like it very much is wrong. It's a bit ridiculous, if you ask me. It's time civilization modernized and stopped being based entirely on religion.

I suppose parents can do what they want, but it's just my opinion that having a male and a female around the house is better for a kid's social well-being. Not to say that gays adopting is bad, there's nothing wrong with it.

It really doesn't bother me, to tell the truth. Whether it's a straight or gay couple, it all comes down to love, and that's what kids need the most.

And so ends my 2 cents on this issue.

Originally Posted by SoL_

I think there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. There's no reason two men (or two women) who really love each other should be kept from being together, just because their sexes are the same. Catholics don't have to recognise gay marriage, as it goes against their tradition. But to illegalize something that won't do anything but good for people just because your holy book doesn't like it very much is wrong. It's a bit ridiculous, if you ask me. It's time civilization modernized and stopped being based entirely on religion.

I suppose parents can do what they want, but it's just my opinion that having a male and a female around the house is better for a kid's social well-being. Not to say that gays adopting is bad, there's nothing wrong with it.

I personally disagree with gay marriage, and gay couples adopting children. That personal disagreement comes from my religion, yes.

But it is absurd to think that everyone should agree, and it's not my problem if gay couples get married or adopt children. I disagree with it, but in this situation, there is absolutely no way it will turn out otherwise. My religion does affect my stance, but I'm not going to impose that stance against others.

And yes, having a one female parent and one male parent makes for a socially well-rounded child, as opposed to two female parents or two male parents.

This world seems to be big enough to support gay families. So I don't see a problem. I'm sure homosexuality isn't destroying the earth.

Originally Posted by Ragnar

i'm sorry but this is THEIR adoption center! Gays should be allowed to adopt yes, but if I certain religion does not condone homosexuals adopting children then the government does not have the right to interfere.

Tell me, would you support an adoption center that refused to allow blacks to adopt children? I doubt it. So how is this any different?

As ridiculous as it is, not letting the catholics do this is just as discriminatory as disallowing gay adoption from a government compound.

Not at all. What right do the Catholics have to ruin these children's lives by denying them families simply because they are being bigoted? Adoption centers, no matter how nice, are not a replacement for families. To decide that children should be kept in them because you can't stand the thought of same-sex marriage is, to put it bluntly, incredibly petty and selfish.

If the orphanages had some studies that showed that children raised by gay parents tend to do worse then those raised by straight parents, then I'd probably agree with their refusal to allow gay adoption.

However, there is no such study, so it's just them being bigoted.

Originally Posted by dann

I personally disagree with gay marriage.

Not trying to pick on you specifically, but this isn't a thread about gay marriage, so could everyone try to keep it on topic?

And yes, having a one female parent and one male parent makes for a socially well-rounded child, as opposed to two female parents or two male parents.

Any study backing that up?

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Not trying to pick on you specifically, but this isn't a thread about gay marriage, so could everyone try to keep it on topic?

Sorry, you misunderstood what I was trying to say, it was directed at another comment I, for some reason, did not quote. I edited it to make my post more clear. So, what is now there is what I was trying to say.

Any study backing that up?

I heard a speaker once read out loud a study that showed certain children without a father figure were prone to certain things, as were certain children without a mother figure. I'm choosing to believe his words (I saw the papers), and am trying to find the study he read from.

Originally Posted by dann

I heard a speaker once read out loud a study that showed certain children without a father figure were prone to certain things, as were certain children without a mother figure. I'm choosing to believe his words (I saw the papers), and am trying to find the study he read from.

Yet I'm willing to bet that the orphanage would be willing to let a single parent adopt, so that presumably isn't why they're not allowing gay adoption.

Actually, a gay family would, I assume, be more likely to provide a separate father/mother figure then a single parent household.

(walks out of the time line room and comes in here)
Yikes this is a serious topic!

I can never choose in these situations because both sides have rights.

The catholics have the right to maintain their traditions which have been upheld for thousands of years but the gays as people also have the right to adopt as much as any other couple. There are probably many gay couples that can raise a child equally if not better than any straight couple. But the catholics do have the right not to have their traditions destroyed ...... soooo here we are.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Yet I'm willing to bet that the orphanage would be willing to let a single parent adopt, so that presumably isn't why they're not allowing gay adoption.

Actually, a gay family would, I assume, be more likely to provide a separate father/mother figure then a single parent household.

Eh. My point was that if children can have, if you will, a void that only a certain figure can fill (be it mother, father), and leaving that void empty would cause them to do destructive things, having double of one figure and still an absence of another can not only confuse the child but have worse effects, presumably. But the latter statement I cannot back up. It's merely my personal opinion.

And with single families, there's always the change of marriage, so the absent figure can come into play. Actually, I read an article in the newpaper the other day where a gay male couple and a gay female couple got together to raise their kids. That's great, I hope the children turn out fine, beacuse there's no study that I know of testing the effect of such a lifestyle on a child. I still don't believe in gay couples adoptiong due to my religion. But, most of this is personal opinion and, like I said, there's really no point to agrue it because the acceptance of homosexuality is politically correct. I also think religion should be as respected as the gay couples. If Catholics don't like it, they should be able to make it known. Americans have freedom of speech. What happened to that?

Originally Posted by dann

My point was that if children can have, if you will, a void that only a certain figure can fill (be it mother, father), and leaving that void empty would cause them to do destructive things, having double of one figure and still an absence of another can not only confuse the child but have worse effects, presumably.

Ah, I see. That is why it is better to have the child remain in the orphanage without either a father figure or mother figure. You'll leave their lives with two unfillable "voids"... but atleast you won't confuse them.

Originally Posted by HylianShroom

Currently, there are many Catholic adoption agencies operating in England/Britain, and obviously as a matter of religious principle they would not let gay couples adopt children, believing as they do that homosexuality is a sin.

Adultery is a sexual sin too... to the deny the right to adopt to anyone who had sex before marriage?

Whatever, this is an issue of legality, no philosophy or hypocrisy. My main concern here would be something unadressed by the TC: how does a paticular orphan come to be under the juridiction of a catholic, as opposed to a secular, adoption agency? And how can "custody" (if that is the correct term here) be legally transferred?

If a baby is born in a private hospital, to a mother who wishes to forasake all responsibility the next day, does it become the ward of the sate, or does the hospital have some authority. Do any requests of the mother stand?
If a baby, having already left with the hosptial, is taken to or abandoned n the property of a private orphanage, does it immediately become the responsbility of the orphanage, or does the state still retain full say?

If is possible that a private institution receive authority over a child without the involvement of the state (ie. throgh the actions of the mother) then I suppose said institution should, like any parent, have the right to apply its own morals in the child's life.

If, on the other hand, all abandoned children full under the authority os the state, then their can be no bigotry or religous preference on the part of the adoption agency.

On a personal note: My (non-genetic)(French Catholic) grandparents ran a foster home, and my paternal family is the wonderful thing it is thanks in large part to adoption. I would never dream of condoning denial of this right to anyone who could love and care for a child.

I am a Christian, and my position on gay couples aside, I think that they should be allowed to adopt. I've been to orphanages before. The poor kids should have parents. It's not like gay parents will teach the children violence and bad manners. The only thing that the kids will learn that the church doesn't want them to is gay tolerance.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Tell me, would you support an adoption center that refused to allow blacks to adopt children? I doubt it. So how is this any different?

two points on that. One, black people are a race, gay is a sexual preferance, big difference. Two, if you were racist, you would be saying the exact opposite thing. Why, because that's what you believed in. You wouldn't want someone imposing their idealogies on you, why should catholics have to have other people's ideaologies pushed onto them.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Not at all. What right do the Catholics have to ruin these children's lives by denying them families simply because they are being bigoted? Adoption centers, no matter how nice, are not a replacement for families. To decide that children should be kept in them because you can't stand the thought of same-sex marriage is, to put it bluntly, incredibly petty and selfish.

How is saying no to a gay couple ruining these childrens lives? The children don't even get to pick these people, these people pick them like they pick what type of car they want. How do you know the child would want to go with that couple. Saying that it is ruining their lives is just plain dumb. The true bigotry is again, the thought of people forcing their ideas onto other people. Plus, have you ever been in an abusive family? Families are not always what they are cracked up to be. What I think is petty is the fact that you believe just because you, the EU, and other organizations think that gay marriage is right, everyone has to believe it. When has a catholic ever tried to force you to believe gay marriage is wrong? I doubt it ever has. This goes against their religious right.

Originally Posted by Arcain

two points on that. One, black people are a race, gay is a sexual preferance, big difference. Two, if you were racist, you would be saying the exact opposite thing. Why, because that's what you believed in. You wouldn't want someone imposing their idealogies on you, why should catholics have to have other people's ideaologies pushed onto them.

Not that much of a difference. Most people would say that they do not choose their sexuality, it is part of them, like skin colour, unchangeable.

How is saying no to a gay couple ruining these childrens lives? The children don't even get to pick these people, these people pick them like they pick what type of car they want. How do you know the child would want to go with that couple. Saying that it is ruining their lives is just plain dumb. The true bigotry is again, the thought of people forcing their ideas onto other people. Plus, have you ever been in an abusive family? Families are not always what they are cracked up to be. What I think is petty is the fact that you believe just because you, the EU, and other organizations think that gay marriage is right, everyone has to believe it. When has a catholic ever tried to force you to believe gay marriage is wrong? I doubt it ever has. This goes against their religious right.

Tell me, what is a religious right? If i am a white supremacist racist, and call my beliefs my "religion" does that suddenly give them more importance than non-religious beliefs? All beliefs are, after all, beliefs. These catholics are not having their freedom of conscience taken away, they are merely having the right to practice their beliefs taken away. Doesnt law do this to us all the time? i might believe that it is right to kill people i dont like. I am not allowed to do this, am i? The state is not trying to force the belief that gay marriage is acceptable onto Catholics, they are just not allowing them to refuse services on the basis of sexuality.

ummm I just wanted to let you know something and I might sound stupid for saying this but,....

Okay catholics won't allow gays to adopt because it's against their believes. Okay so why don't the gay people look somewhere else that allows them to instead of getting mad at the catholics for saying "No"

I for one really don't care if gay people adot kids (I don't agree with it but I don't care)

They say catholics are being discriminative for not allowing it and having the government step in but in a way that's just religious discrimination and that shouldn't be tolerated either. I happen to be a Christian (NO I DO NOT HATE GAYS) and I wouldn't want the goverment forcing me to do something against my religion just for tolerance. maybe they should tolerate me and my believes as well.

Originally Posted by princess-sheik

They say catholics are being discriminative for not allowing it and having the government step in but in a way that's just religious discrimination and that shouldn't be tolerated either. I happen to be a Christian (NO I DO NOT HATE GAYS) and I wouldn't want the goverment forcing me to do something against my religion just for tolerance. maybe they should tolerate me and my believes as well.

Discrimination is a necessary thing. You don't want a blind taxi driver, obviously. The question is whether the discrimination is justified or not. Sometimes we have to force you to do something against your beliefs. Do you think we should tolerate the KKK and their beliefs as well? How about the terrorists?

The Catholic discrimination is entirely unjustified. It is based on the assumption that their unfalsifiable, unsubstantiated belief system is the correct one, and until they demonstrate that contention, they shouldn't have control over people with higher standards of proof. That being said, I don't know how adoption is regulated. If gays can still adopt from other agencies, then in all practicality it's not so bad. It seems very cruel to the child, though, to prevent it from having a parent based purely on the fact that the parents disagree with the church. If the church could actually prove that a child will turn out worse in a gay family than without a family, then they will have justified it. Until then, they're making asses of themselves.

Originally Posted by Arcain

two points on that. One, black people are a race, gay is a sexual preferance, big difference.

Only if one can choose their sexual preference, which is almost certainly not the case.

Two, if you were racist, you would be saying the exact opposite thing.

Sure, but would anyone even be trying to defend my right to say that? Of course not.

Why, because that's what you believed in. You wouldn't want someone imposing their idealogies on you, why should catholics have to have other people's ideaologies pushed onto them.

Then they're imposing their ideologies on other people and the children, and while doing so are harming the children by not allowing them to be in a home.

Guess what ends up doing more harm overall.

How is saying no to a gay couple ruining these childrens lives?

It's keeping the children out of homes. Orphanages, no matter how nice, are not a replacement for a true family.

The children don't even get to pick these people, these people pick them like they pick what type of car they want. How do you know the child would want to go with that couple.

Then no one should ever be allowed to adopt.

Saying that it is ruining their lives is just plain dumb. The true bigotry is again, the thought of people forcing their ideas onto other people.

I'd argue that it isn't, but even if it was bigotry on behalf of the gays, their bigotry ends up with less harm, no?

Plus, have you ever been in an abusive family? Families are not always what they are cracked up to be.

Again, this leads me to conclude that no one should ever be allowed to adopt, since they might be abusive parents.

What I think is petty is the fact that you believe just because you, the EU, and other organizations think that gay marriage is right, everyone has to believe it. When has a catholic ever tried to force you to believe gay marriage is wrong? I doubt it ever has. This goes against their religious right.

While I'd prefer they stop being bigoted towards gays, I honestly won't try to force anyone to change their mind on the issue, unless their current way of thinking is going to cause harm.

However, I've been preached at that gay marriage will end the world, or ruin life, or cause corruption, etc. In fact, quite a few Catholics go around and try to force people to accept their beliefs.


I said this before, but the only way this behavior (by the orphanages) wouldn't be petty, selfish, and harmful was if they could somehow show that gay families are bad for kids. They can't, so they're simply saying that they can ruin the lives of children because they simply don't like gays. This is the exact same as saying that it's OK to ruin the lives of children because you don't like blacks.

actually nobody's being bigoted about anyone. catholic people have just as much a right to express their believes and oppionions as gay people.

Originally Posted by princess-sheik

actually nobody's being bigoted about anyone. catholic people have just as much a right to express their believes and oppionions as gay people.

Not necessarily. Hate speech is not protected by any law. It also is bigotry. They see another lifestyle that they don't like, but which harms no one, and cry out that those who practice it should have their rights reduced.

Anyways, can you honestly justify not allowing children to be adopted because you don't like blacks? No. So how is this any different?