Catholics, Homosexuals and Adoption

I never said I hated black I'm friends with blacks and I'm friends with a bisexual person. It's not a hate crime to not allow a gay person to adopt kids if your catholic and your religion is against it. They can always adopt some other way but I already said that and I don't feel like going around in circles. Then again if they're doing it just to cause problems then it is a hate crime.

I'm a christain and I'm not ashamed to say it. I don't believe in gay marriage and I think kids should have a mother and a father but I won't walk around shouting "gays shouldn't adopt children" Now that would be a prejadist thing and would be stupid. It would do more harm than good. You know?

Originally Posted by princess-sheik

I never said I hated black I'm friends with blacks and I'm friends with a bisexual person.

I know. I was using that as an example to show how wrong this is. If it was black people I can guarentee you that there would be a public outcry.

It's not a hate crime to not allow a gay person to adopt kids if your catholic and your religion is against it.

Nor did I say it was.

However, this is a serious question that I'd really like you to answer: If it was a KKK orphanage denying blacks the ability to adopt, would you be OK with it? I suspect not.

So how is this any different?

I don't know. I don't care if they adopt kids or not but then again I'm not catholic and I love everyone but if catholics don't wanna do it they don't really have to.

i'm going to go agianst the grain here and side on the side of the Catholics. Personaly, I think that a child requires a Mother and a Father, not 2 of one type. The mother to care for, and teach values too, the father to support, love, and teach.

As for the love thing, well, there is more to parenting then love. There needs to be two contrasting sides(Male and Female) to consider all the facts and make judgements so. For example, remember when you were in trouble as a kid and your mother was already to let you get away from it, but your father was the one who inacted the puishment, because he knew that was what lesson you needed to learn at the Time?

But thats just my opinion. I calls them as i sees them.

Originally Posted by Dark Wyrm

i'm going to go agianst the grain here and side on the side of the Catholics. Personaly, I think that a child requires a Mother and a Father, not 2 of one type. The mother to care for, and teach values too, the father to support, love, and teach.

As for the love thing, well, there is more to parenting then love. There needs to be two contrasting sides(Male and Female) to consider all the facts and make judgements so. For example, remember when you were in trouble as a kid and your mother was already to let you get away from it, but your father was the one who inacted the puishment, because he knew that was what lesson you needed to learn at the Time?

But thats just my opinion. I calls them as i sees them.

I agree that they need a mother and a father and I agree with you on that but i don't care though I prefer it that way. I mean I got a mom and a dad and I'm happy with that and I think children should have a little bit of both.

While I believe that discriminating against someone based on their sexual orientation is wrong, these are private institutions, and have the right to deny a person the right to adopt from them if they choose to. It may seem wrong to most, but these are privately run, not run by the government, so they have the right to deny someone the ability to adopt.

Originally Posted by Dark Wyrm

i'm going to go agianst the grain here and side on the side of the Catholics. Personaly, I think that a child requires a Mother and a Father, not 2 of one type. The mother to care for, and teach values too, the father to support, love, and teach.

Do you have any studies backing that up? Besides, if that was the case, why aren't they saying that single parents aren't allowed to adopt?

As for the love thing, well, there is more to parenting then love. There needs to be two contrasting sides(Male and Female) to consider all the facts and make judgements so. For example, remember when you were in trouble as a kid and your mother was already to let you get away from it, but your father was the one who inacted the puishment, because he knew that was what lesson you needed to learn at the Time?

And everyone must live in stereotypes, then? All women must react exactly the same way? All men must be harsh?

Due to several conflicting opinions, I'm neither for nor against it. On a whole, as the Catholic Adoption centre is privately owned, they have the right to their own rules and regulations, but at the same time, I seriously dislike their indiscrimination against gays and the notions that are implied against them due to references in the Bible.

You cannot choose your sexuality any more than you can choose your skin colour, and neither one automatically makes you a bad or untrustworthy person. Can you imagine the outcry if it were black people that weren't allowed to adopt, as GDwarf has spoken?

Truly, what is the biggest worry about gay people adopting children? That the parents will abuse or hurt the children? Hetero couples are equally capable of that as well. Well then, is it the fact that the gay parents might some how 'influence' or make the children be gay? Then somebody please explain why a child from a heterosexual couple sometimes turns out to be gay.

All in all, I see very little wrong with gay adoption. As long the parents are willing to do their best and give the children a good and loving home, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I suppose then the argument against gay adoption might then be that the children aren't getting enough gender socialisation with having two parents of one gender and aren't getting a decent role model? Are single mothers/fathers bad then? I know of many single mothers who have done a damn good job with their kids.

The only reason I can truly see against would be that it upsets religious beliefs, sadly many of which seem to incite intolerance and ignorance to me.

Originally Posted by Dark Wyrm

i'm going to go agianst the grain here and side on the side of the Catholics. Personaly, I think that a child requires a Mother and a Father, not 2 of one type. The mother to care for, and teach values too, the father to support, love, and teach.

As for the love thing, well, there is more to parenting then love. There needs to be two contrasting sides(Male and Female) to consider all the facts and make judgements so. For example, remember when you were in trouble as a kid and your mother was already to let you get away from it, but your father was the one who inacted the puishment, because he knew that was what lesson you needed to learn at the Time?

But thats just my opinion. I calls them as i sees them.

You think that two moms is worse than none? Remember that the alternative to gays adopting is not straight people adopting. The alternative is that the children go to single parents, or stay in the orphanage. As far as I know, the supply is much higher than the demand in adoption.

So take everything you say, and apply it to the alternatives.

Also, what you said about the "contrasting sides" may have been the case for your family, but certainly not mine. So no, I don't remember.

I find your list of gender roles interesting. You said, "The mother to care for, and teach values too, the father to support, love, and teach." Why can't a mother teach and love? Why can't a father teach values and care for the child? Is there any factual basis to your opinion at all?

Originally Posted by Dark Wyrm

remember when you were in trouble as a kid and your mother was already to let you get away from it, but your father was the one who inacted the puishment, because he knew that was what lesson you needed to learn at the Time?

Yea, you really shouldn't be making that assumption. My mother was the one to lay out the punishment, where my dad let me get away with stuff. Not all children have the stereotypical parental roles.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Do you have any studies backing that up? Besides, if that was the case, why aren't they saying that single parents aren't allowed to adopt?


And everyone must live in stereotypes, then? All women must react exactly the same way? All men must be harsh?

how come whenever soemone says something like that you get all offended?

Originally Posted by 2 Dope

While I believe that discriminating against someone based on their sexual orientation is wrong, these are private institutions,

Just out of curiosity, how does one get taken into a privately owned orphanage?

Originally Posted by princess-sheik

how come whenever soemone says something like that you get all offended?

I'm not actually offended. I assure you that I'm almost never as angry as I seem to sound in my posts.

Well I am as mad as I sound, and I am offended. Not only has this topic called people in my religion petty and bigots, but it has gone so far as to say that as a private institution, they cannot practice their beliefs. That's why in american we have seperation of church and state, so idiocy like this doesn't happen. Plain and simple, if you don't like what the catholic orphanage says, GO TO ANOTHER ONE! There are alot more orphanages out there, I promise you. Do I have a problem with gays, no. Do I think my religion still has the right to believe what it believes without people forcing them to do otherwise, yes. Also, have I ever once attacked anyones religion on here? Never. Quit attacking mine.

Originally Posted by Arcain

Well I am as mad as I sound, and I am offended. Not only has this topic called people in my religion petty and bigots, but it has gone so far as to say that as a private institution, they cannot practice their beliefs.

Why does it matter what faith they are? I'm not insulting Catholics in general, I am angry at these specific ones who feel that it is perfectly acceptable to deprive children of a family because they are being bigots.

I'd say the same things if they were Atheists, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc.

Once again, I have to ask, how does a private orphanage work?

That's why in american we have seperation of church and state, so idiocy like this doesn't happen.

Erm, separation of church and state simply means that the government isn't allowed to favour any religion over any other. If anything, it would help go against these orphanages.

Plain and simple, if you don't like what the catholic orphanage says, GO TO ANOTHER ONE! There are alot more orphanages out there, I promise you.

This isn't a gay rights issue. While the orphanages are being bigoted, they're also perfectly happy depriving children of families.

Do I have a problem with gays, no. Do I think my religion still has the right to believe what it believes without people forcing them to do otherwise, yes.

I agree, except when that belief actively harms others, as this one does.

Also, have I ever once attacked anyones religion on here? Never. Quit attacking mine.

Where is this general attack on Catholicism? I, personally, am attacking the people who run the orphanages, no others.

I think we lost some posts here......
yes theer was an attack on cathilicism in here. I can't quote it but I saw it. It's not nice to say things like that about a religion you might know nothing about. it would be a good idea to just tolerate their beliefs too. if they don't want to do it they shouldn't be forced to. Plain and simple.

(I think I'm coming off as retarded now aren't I?)

please don't delete this post I am on topic.

Originally Posted by princess-sheik

I think we lost some posts here......

A few were deleted.

yes theer was an attack on cathilicism in here. I can't quote it but I saw it.

I was doing most of the posting against this, I made no attack against Catholicism.

It's not nice to say things like that about a religion you might know nothing about.

I know a fair amount about Christianity. However, as I keep saying, what faith you are doesn't matter in this issue.

please don't delete this post I am on topic.

Heh, don't worry, on-topic posts stay around.

(sorry to interrupt the flow)
What would this catholic orphanage do if they knew that one of the children was displaying homosexual tendencies? Would they toss it out or continue raising the child, that to them, is nothing more than a sin.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Tell me, would you support an adoption center that refused to allow blacks to adopt children? I doubt it. So how is this any different?

It is qualitatively different. A black couple is identical to a white couple, or a couple of any ethnicity, or a couple with mixed ethnicity, except accidentally. A same-sex couple is qualitatively (substantially) different than a different-sex couple-- i.e., as regards both partners being of the same gender vs. of opposite genders.

The Catholic discrimination is entirely unjustified. It is based on the assumption that their unfalsifiable, unsubstantiated belief system is the correct one, and until they demonstrate that contention, they shouldn't have control over people with higher standards of proof.

What do you mean by demonstrate? Are you looking for mathematical proof? By what means did you arrive at the conclusion that the yardstick you use to measure (i.e., the one you are using now) is the correct one?

As regards morals in the post-modern world, that is, from the post-modern perspective, they cannot be proven in any case. Is this a double standard, do you think?

That being said, I don't know how adoption is regulated. If gays can still adopt from other agencies, then in all practicality it's not so bad.

In fact, they can. Catholic agencies make up a sum total of about 4% of adoption agencies in the UK. It has no practical effect. That is, on the availability of adoption to gay couples in the UK.

What it will do is something far worse. While the Catholic agencies have a small percentage, they are recognized as taking the, 'hard cases'-- ones that others don't. And by passing this law, the UK is doing what will force the agencies to shut down, because we refuse to operate against our consciences. This will do a grave disservice to the children, the, 'hard cases' served by the Catholic agencies.

It seems very cruel to the child, though, to prevent it from having a parent based purely on the fact that the parents disagree with the church. If the church could actually prove that a child will turn out worse in a gay family than without a family, then they will have justified it. Until then, they're making asses of themselves.

As for the italicized, it is not a case that only people who agree with the Church can adopt. I'm sure many who disagree with the Church do adopt-- but what is the case that people who associate in a certain way, that is, who disagree in a certain way by their actions, are precluded.

This comes down, not to discrimination, but to freedom of conscience. And freedom of conscience is something Catholics should be allowed. For all the talk of discrimination, that is exactly what happens when one forces Catholics to do something they consider immoral. England has simply had an anti-Catholic streak for too long. Let's let Catholics... I dunno, be Catholics.

Originally Posted by Cloaked Mystery

(sorry to interrupt the flow)
What would this catholic orphanage do if they knew that one of the children was displaying homosexual tendencies? Would they toss it out or continue raising the child, that to them, is nothing more than a sin.

They would never throw a child out for that reason. Raising a child with same-sex attraction is not a sin. Far from it. The Catholic Church places sin on freely willed action, not on involuntary attraction. There is nothing intrinsically immoral with being attracted to someone of the same sex. The Church opposes the expression of sexuality between two people of the same sex-- which is different. People with same-sex attraction need to be treated with compassion and love just as all other people should, and perhaps with more, for they carry a heavier burden than most people do. At the same time, the Church does not compromise its moral teaching, even in hard cases, nor should it be expected to.

-Rob

I'm just gonna toss in my 2 cents and probably not come back.

In Christianity in general, Juadaism, and Islam, homosexuality is a dreadful sin. Reason being, all have the same old testament. (I'm not 100% on Islam please correct if wrong). Look in the book of Proverbs, it's half the text. I think it is within a Christian's right to refuse a profane couple -in their eyes- to refuse them certain forms of service. I believe that since they are bringing up the children in a Christian atmosphere, and the couple adopting would go against teachings, the child could face many problems. Also, to many Christians, homosexuals are somewhat of a contraband. Would an adoption agency give a child to a chronic alchoholic and a strip club worker? It is much the same thing in a Christian's eyes as giving children to homosexuals.

My 2 cents, no more no less.

Firstly, this is not a practical issue we are debating. Catholic agencies do make up 4% so gays are pretty free to adopt. however, if 4% of bars did not allow blacks, would we dismiss the issue as blacks could go elsewhere?

Can we stop affording religious beliefs more significance than regular beliefs? Just because these people claim that they have a god who influences their beliefs does not mean they are more important.

Catholics are not having freedom of conscience taken away. they are merely not allowed to practice their beliefs if they wish to be an adoption agency. No-one is forcing Catholics to start adoption agencies and act contrary to their beliefs. Having some freedom of action taken away is not an intrinsically bad thing. After all i am not allowed to beat the hell out of people even if i believe it to be right. The law restricts freedom of action, deal with it.

There is no proof that children will get a better upbringing from a male and female parent as opposed to same sex parents. And how do you measure a good upbringing anyway? surely it is a subjective issue. As long as no demonstrable harm is being caused to the child either on purpose or through ignorance then the sex of the parents does not matter.