Education - your thoughts

Recently, a friend of mine posed a great statement :

I have no trust in the foundations of education
most of it is evidently mental endurance designed to produce our productivity

after brief analysis, I can find myself only agreeing.
society on the whole notes the importance of eduction, but for what? Statistics show that college graduates make more money, but the average college graduate is typically somewhat more intelligent that the typical proletarian and would in a majority of cases be very capable of better substance without a degree. Bill gates and Steve jobs would be primary examples. Even within my own family I can see evidence of this. My uncle has a masters degree, yet my father who dropped out of college half way through his senior year has accrued more wealth despite being the more disadvantaged, youngest son.

in all, what are your views? Is extensive education a necessity, or merely a tool of those in higher political positions to ensure the productivity of the lower classes?

EDIT: I'm referring more to the structure of society's educational system, not the necessity of an education.

Oh, it's nescesary.

Try thinking about it for a second: Does it make sense to have every single skilled worker self-trained? There is only so much that a person can learn by trial and error, and without that learning you end up with architects that don't know how to create buildings that last, or scientists that don't know how to calculate, say, the orbits of planets.

The truth is that the reason university graduates earn more money is because the jobs they get hired for do, in fact, need more knowledge then other jobs.

There is a difference between a simple basic education which would be required, and a more extensive one.

for the average minimum wage worker, elementary education is in a sense superfluous.

I'm nto saying that education can't be beneficial, but as it is, it doesn't teach anything of practical use. What real world scenario requires one to be adept at poetical analysis, what real world scenario requires the average person to be able to identify Machiavellian policies within a society?

The more intelligent can and do learn on their own, yet to me it seems the schooling is used more to associate individuals with work more so than learning.

Education is wonderful, but I don't...agree with what it has become. There is an immense amount of pressure to get 'good grades' and get into a college. That much stress can actually hurt a person. I don't think that's how a formal education should be.

Originally Posted by nighthawkx

There is a difference between a simple basic education which would be required, and a more extensive one.

for the average minimum wage worker, elementary education is in a sense superfluous.

I'm nto saying that education can't be beneficial, but as it is, it doesn't teach anything of practical use. What real world scenario requires one to be adept at poetical analysis, what real world scenario requires the average person to be able to identify Machiavellian policies within a society?

The more intelligent can and do learn on their own, yet to me it seems the schooling is used more to associate individuals with work more so than learning.

That's not true. Elementary education is used to help children become curious about the world around them and get a sense of what they might want to do for a living. Yes, everything learned becomes pretty much irrelevant for a minimum wage worker, but if he or she had not been educated then they would not have had the chance to do more.

Edit: I also agree with GDwarf's post below.

Originally Posted by nighthawkx

There is a difference between a simple basic education which would be required, and a more extensive one.

for the average minimum wage worker, elementary education is in a sense superfluous.

Agreed, but who strives to be a minimum-wage worker? The idea behind highschool is to teach people enough that they're not limited to minimum-wage jobs.

I'm nto saying that education can't be beneficial, but as it is, it doesn't teach anything of practical use. What real world scenario requires one to be adept at poetical analysis,

Being an art critic, or writing for a newspaper/magazine/website. (Well, those are more English in general, but you get my point.)

The more intelligent can and do learn on their own, yet to me it seems the schooling is used more to associate individuals with work more so than learning.

I'd still have to disagree. Past highschool a higher education is optional, and the people who get one don't tend to simply join the workforce at the bottom of the ladder. The people who wouldn't need this education are the ones who don't bother getting it.

In america or the world?

Extensive necessary by means of establishing everyone into politics and medical?

In America:
It is not necessary to the points of everyone being a political leader or a doctor (although more of both would be nice) but more education so that the employment rate is lower because of the amount of careers. Of course doing this could cause some easily fixed problems. The amount of products needed could drop substantially.

In the world:
Education could be a great help to the economy, the enviroment, the future exploration, etc.
It is possible that certain areas of the world with not necessarily the knowledge but the resources and land; could practice in their own trade (being educated by more educated countries). This could be extremely benefitial in killing the problem of of overuse of one career.

But (to stay on topic here) the only way this could happen is with the least a highschool education.
Many people may think that they can learn better on their own but as broad as the internet is its hard to get a decent opinion and and actual well taught education from an internet site.
A carpenter couldn't learn properly how to construct a house on his own. Even if, a carpenter wouldn't be trusted by anyone if he told them that he learned how to build a house "on his own".
Would you let a plumber fix your toilet without a certified proper education?

I'd have to agree with the first statement made here. As a drop-out myself, I find that all you really need to know to get by in the world is, $2 + $1 = profit. Of course, though I do plan on finishing my education soon, I'm glad I have a view of the world from outside the schoolhouse. What you're talking mostly about, GD, is specialized classes for specialized careers. You don't need to be adept at poetic themes to be a good critic. Rarely do I find myself using a school-gained knowledge from highschool in real life. In all, high school after grade 9 is definately just there to associate you with work, not to teach you. As a former social teacher once told me, "The best thing high school can teach you, is that you don't need it to live. All high school does is teach you to learn".

But its not what you need to know in the world, its the responsibility and the career sense of mind that you need.
Not to be mean or anything but in America, it is extremely hard to find a job without a college education, none the less a high school education.
It doesn't matter what you think it matters what America thinks

Your all stating liberal capitalist ideals. for one the greater the supply of well educated people, the less you can pay them. We need to wake the proletariat up to the way that the system is run and eliminate class altogether. then it wont matter how well eduacated people are. Just listen to Marx - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." I in fact like education, especially i the area of philosophy, i think theres a lot there that needs to be known and applied that a lot of people are not aware of. Go ahead and learn sciences but all that does if increase our efficiency to produce.

Marx encouraged education so that is very irrelevant.

Originally Posted by nighthawkx

Marx encouraged education so that is very irrelevant.

Yes, he did, but that does not mean that in a classless society that everyone would have to be educated to get their equal share. if they were just not very responsive to education they would still be an equal member in society, and would still have their use and recieve their share.

Originally Posted by HylianShroom

We need to wake the proletariat up to the way that the system is run and eliminate class altogether. then it wont matter how well eduacated people are. Just listen to Marx - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."... Go ahead and learn sciences but all that does if increase our efficiency to produce.

Unless you're saying that you can somehow manipulate the entire world so that you'll always have the ability to produce what is necessary for survival, then you're going to have to have an education in order to make sure that you can produce as much as possible. Without a surplus of production, your classless society is going to starve to death eventually in case any sort of disaster ever strikes.

And what do you need to prevent natural disasters and to learn to produce more? Education and improvement in technology.

What andi said was also the point of my posts.
If the world had started off with self learning maybe this could have worked....but we would be as educated as the people in the 1850s...
But still, if we tried to eliminate school and promote self teaching many of this kids wouldn't do it. They would already see learning as a hastle and would just play video games all day (which i wouldn't mind but I still need a job)

Originally Posted by andi

Unless you're saying that you can somehow manipulate the entire world so that you'll always have the ability to produce what is necessary for survival, then you're going to have to have an education in order to make sure that you can produce as much as possible. Without a surplus of production, your classless society is going to starve to death eventually in case any sort of disaster ever strikes.

And what do you need to prevent natural disasters and to learn to produce more? Education and improvement in technology.

No you misunderstand me. I do not think there should be no education, even in that kind of society, only that the standard of education that you had would not matter in giving you a better, more wealthy life. There would be no need for people to gain extensive educations in order earn more. You could be perfectly happy working the land, and would still be equal to everyone else.
Also there would be no need to produce more, as the only use of that is to make money, which is no longer essentially neccessary

That really is communism.
Here's my logic and I think everyone who thinks about it knows all of the reasons why.

No Education = No Point in Life

Money and other items are a source of security. If you hvae gold, you know that even during a time of drought you'll still be able to exchange goods with other people in order to get what you need to survive until the next harvest.

Also, if you're talking about communism, why are you saying that a person would want to "earn more"? Under communism, you don't earn "more or less" for yourself. You perform work (in this case, farming the land), and then everybody takes what they need.

Originally Posted by HylianShroom

Your all stating liberal capitalist ideals. for one the greater the supply of well educated people, the less you can pay them. We need to wake the proletariat up to the way that the system is run and eliminate class altogether. then it wont matter how well eduacated people are. Just listen to Marx - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." I in fact like education, especially i the area of philosophy, i think theres a lot there that needs to be known and applied that a lot of people are not aware of. Go ahead and learn sciences but all that does if increase our efficiency to produce.

As much as I love Karl Marx - and we was a hot piece - I really don't think that he has any place in this topic. As far as I'm aware, Marx never really wrote much on the subject on education, except to say that is a reflection of the class struggle. Of course, Marx liked to see most things as the symptom of a class based world so I guess you could charge into any thread and try to stir up the masses into a frenzy :/ . Kind of like how people like to quote Marx completely out of context when they're talking about religion.

However, I am hot for Socialism, so I'm gonna beat the left stick as well ^_^ .

I'm nto saying that education can't be beneficial, but as it is, it doesn't teach anything of practical use. What real world scenario requires one to be adept at poetical analysis,

In the grand scheme of things, we don't need to know about poetical analysis. I know GDwarf pointed out that it's be a useful tool to have if you were an art critic, but then, does the world need art critics?

The degree I'm working toward is in psychology, which does have its uses in the real world, but I've also picked up a lot of information which is probably seen as being a complete waste of time.

Fooor example, I can tell you all about the Freudian analysis of Hamlet with regards to the Oedipus Complex. Now, when I leave university I'm never going to be using this again directly, although it's not exactly useless.

Basically it comes down to a theory developed by a Frenchman (who's name I've forgotten x__x) that is to do with the nation of Cultural Capital. By learning about Hamlet, I've gained considerable cultural capital, which in this case is like an intellectual form of monetary capital. With this capital, I have established myself as part of the intelligentsia of society, and I immediately have more power and prestige in society. Cultural capital can also be easily exchanged for economic capital, which places me in a better position than a mechanic or an electrician - even though their skills are far more useful than mine. The difference is, I have a piece of paper that says I'm more intelligent than they are, and I can therefore place myself above them.

Float your theory.

Originally Posted by andi

Money and other items are a source of security. If you hvae gold, you know that even during a time of drought you'll still be able to exchange goods with other people in order to get what you need to survive until the next harvest.

Also, if you're talking about communism, why are you saying that a person would want to "earn more"? Under communism, you don't earn "more or less" for yourself. You perform work (in this case, farming the land), and then everybody takes what they need.

In reinforcement to the post above


and then everbody takes what they need..... with the government telling them what they need and no thought for themself because they have no education to know that they're simply a form of controlled slavery who does have the option to get out but can't not comprehend it without knowledge

^kind of run on and clumped but I don't know how else to say it

I think that the current educational system in America is messed. To graduate college you have to know english yet you do not have to know math. With the way brains work you are either good in the math side or the english side. Does anyone else think this is unfair to the ones that are good on the math side of things?