The Concept of a Spirit/Soul

Something to think about. What makes a soul a soul?

Now, to get things started, and for those who don't quite understand, let's start with a few questions.

If, souls exist, would a person with, say, an artificial mind, but completely natural body, have a soul? Actually, come to think of it, I brought up something like this in another thread. I said that, looking at the rate that technology is advancing, there will probably be artificially enhanced, or purely synthetic brains place in children before birth. Now, I was told this wasn't possible, because of the complex properties of the brain. Think about it, though.

People once thought that cloning was impossible. However, today, it is a reality. People once thought that artificial intelligence was purely fiction. However, we have robots able to perform complex actions. Why won't we have robots with the capabilites to learn and show emotion? We have a vague understanding of how the human mind works, so why can't we be able to simulate those properties in the future?

So, if that is possible, let's say that a human embryo is implanted with a super-powerful computer chip, to replace the brain. If, in the future, that happens, would the human have a soul? I mean, if souls do exist, why would removing the brain remove the soul? I am pretty sure people with mental disabilities have perfectly alright souls, if they exist. If people chop off their hands, does it kill their soul, if it exists?

So, discuss.

Originally Posted by Andross

Something to think about. What makes a soul a soul?

What we consider a "soul," or "spirit," is basically our consciousness. We are consciously aware of ourselves, and can think, feel, learn, and form opinions. That's generally the concept of souls and spirits.

Now, to get things started, and for those who don't quite understand, let's start with a few questions.

If, souls exist, would a person with, say, an artificial mind, but completely natural body, have a soul? Actually, come to think of it, I brought up something like this in another thread. I said that, looking at the rate that technology is advancing, there will probably be artificially enhanced, or purely synthetic brains place in children before birth. Now, I was told this wasn't possible, because of the complex properties of the brain. Think about it, though.

People once thought that cloning was impossible. However, today, it is a reality. People once thought that artificial intelligence was purely fiction. However, we have robots able to perform complex actions. Why won't we have robots with the capabilites to learn and show emotion? We have a vague understanding of how the human mind works, so why can't we be able to simulate those properties in the future?

So, if that is possible, let's say that a human embryo is implanted with a super-powerful computer chip, to replace the brain. If, in the future, that happens, would the human have a soul? I mean, if souls do exist, why would removing the brain remove the soul? I am pretty sure people with mental disabilities have perfectly alright souls, if they exist. If people chop off their hands, does it kill their soul, if it exists?

Artificial intelligence could never really have a soul, per se, but it could have consciousness. We'll most likely be able to create intelligences in the future that will be capable of gathering information, applying morals to thought, and forming opinions. Basically the same thing, really.

Just a note: I appologize for putting the term soul in parenthesies, but it goes by many terms and I myself don't even call it that, I'm just using that term to get my ideas across easier.

If, souls exist, would a person with, say, an artificial mind, but completely natural body, have a soul?

You mean brain. The mind is not the brain. The brain is the control terminal of the body, the mind is the mental-image pictures a person stores and the machinery that handles it. The mind can exist alongside the 'soul', whether or not it's in a body. So the mind would be in fine working order if one had it alongside this artificial brain, it's just the fact of getting that machine to function properly that's the issue.

There's no 'making the mind faster or more able' with computing/microchip/ect. technology. We could possibly, and this would probably the only reason to do this, make someone whose brain has been damaged in working order again. I'd say mentally disabled as well, but whether it's a problem with the brain or the mind I'm not sure, and it would only be able to be fixable by an artificial brain if it were the brain having the dificulty.

But I'm sure there are some who believe that the mind and the brain are one, and so can give you their opinions on that.

The 'soul', also, is a separate thing from the mind and the brain, and so I don't believe there's a worry that it would harm or alter the 'soul', just maybe the ability for it to communicate with the world. I think the only thing is whether the body with an artificial brain will have a 'soul' in it or not. But we can't do anything to figure that out before hand, and it's not even our call whether or not some 'soul' is put into a body. It's the call of those horrible beings that forced us into these bodies in the first place.

If people chop off their hands, does it kill their soul, if it exists?

First off, I don't really understand what you mean. The 'soul' cannot be killed, it can only be forced to leave the body because the body is dead. What would chopping off someone's hands do?

Woh! I just took my PSAT today and there was a passage dealing with stuff like this.

Anyway, it's pretty much what Aex said. The soul is an abstract thing, a term used by us to represent our personality and how to form thoughts and opinions. This is my theory anyway. That's why when we go to heaven, it is our sould that goes up there so that we keep our mentality and personality.

Originally Posted by Ichabod_L

First off, I don't really understand what you mean. The 'soul' cannot be killed, it can only be forced to leave the body because the body is dead. What would chopping off someone's hands do?

Well, that is sort of what I mean. If everything else about the human is human, except for the brain, the soul is still a soul, right? What I mean is that chopping off hands won't damage the soul, just like chopping off a brain and replacing it.

Originally Posted by Andross

Well, that is sort of what I mean. If everything else about the human is human, except for the brain, the soul is still a soul, right? What I mean is that chopping off hands won't damage the soul, just like chopping off a brain and replacing it.

I'll humour you for a moment. Let's say that souls do exist. They'd need to reside somewhere. The brain would be the most suitable place. Or the mind, if you prefer, but if you take away the brain, you'd still be taking away the mind.

Maybe our soul is contained within our brain. After all, if we did switch brains, everything except our looks (despite a huge scar all around our head) would change. MAybe the 92% fo the brain we don't use houses our soul...? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Lunchbox

Maybe our soul is contained within our brain. After all, if we did switch brains, everything except our looks (despite a huge scar all around our head) would change. MAybe the 92% fo the brain we don't use houses our soul...? Just a thought.

Humans use all 100% of their brain, what you're referencing is a mis-quote of a scientist who said that he only knew how 30% of the human brain worked.

My easy, short, and simple answer(that probably is not going to be taken seriously): The soul is something that trascends any science in the world. It does not adhere to the laws of nature and is something that can't be explained by any rational method. I mean, the way I see it, the way that humans exists is a phenomenon. And the distinction between the brain and the soul? Basically, the brain does submit to scientific explanations, but the soul is seperate.

My interpretation (primarily biblically) is this;

The terms "Heart", "Soul"", and "Mind" are simply references to the different aspects of awareness. The term "Heart" does not mean the physical heart, but the human ability to emote. The term "Mind" does not mean the physical brain, but the human ability to reason and remember. The term "Soul" does not represent an actual physical entity, but the human ability to choose and grow.

The Sprit is a completely different entity, one which does not originally exist within a human, but may be placed therein, by God, as a counter to the "Flesh" (Human Iniquity). The concept of a soul is absract; relating to our ability to choose between these two opposing, external forces.

I can't recall ever hearing that it is the "soul" alone that enters heaven, it is the entire being, (concepted Heart, Soul and Mind) which may have this privilage. However, it is the "soul" wehich acheives salvation in the first place.

I'm pretty sure a soul and spirit wouldn't be supported by an Atheistic worldview. They are things created by God that don't necessarily belong to the body, but are a part of the individual. I'm not too sure the correlation and interaction between body, soul, and spirit. I don't know too much about these things, only that our spirit will live on even after death.

Humans use all 100% of their brain, what you're referencing is a mis-quote of a scientist who said that he only knew how 30% of the human brain worked.

Really? I also heard that we only use 8% of our brain. Interesting... Any sources for either side?

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

I'm pretty sure a soul and spirit wouldn't be supported by an Atheistic worldview. They are things created by God that don't necessarily belong to the body, but are a part of the individual. I'm not too sure the correlation and interaction between body, soul, and spirit. I don't know too much about these things, only that our spirit will live on even after death.

Some atheists believe in souls/spirits. Materialists, like myself, don't.

Really? I also heard that we only use 8% of our brain. Interesting... Any sources for either side?

Snopes has it in terms everyone can understand.

Out of curiosity, in a materialistic view, what is the consciousness?

Originally Posted by Lunchbox

The soul is an abstract thing, a term used by us to represent our personality and how to form thoughts and opinions.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

The term "Soul" does not represent an actual physical entity, but the human ability to choose and grow.

The 'soul' would be the person themselves, the "I" of the person, and despite the use of the word as something we have, it is in fact what we are. The fact that 'souls' form thoughts, considerations, and choice makes it in no way it abstract. It is an actual thing, and comprehensible.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

The Sprit is a completely different entity, one which does not originally exist within a human, but may be placed therein, by God,

Who says it's God that puts us in a body?

Originally Posted by Aex

What we consider a "soul," or "spirit," is basically our consciousness. We are consciously aware of ourselves, and can think, feel, learn, and form opinions. That's generally the concept of souls and spirits.

Artificial intelligence could never really have a soul, per se, but it could have consciousness. We'll most likely be able to create intelligences in the future that will be capable of gathering information, applying morals to thought, and forming opinions. Basically the same thing, really.

I'm confused here, you first say that a soul is basically our consciousness. Then you say that Artificial intelligence has consciousness but no soul. What is it about the human consciousness that sets it apart, that makes it a soul? You see I think it is more than just consciousness that defines a soul.

Originally Posted by Aex

I'll humour you for a moment. Let's say that souls do exist. They'd need to reside somewhere. The brain would be the most suitable place. Or the mind, if you prefer, but if you take away the brain, you'd still be taking away the mind.

This is a very old fashond veiw, that the soul is physical and must "reside" somwhere. I think of the soul more as the essence of who we are, it is not physical like our bodies, our minds and brains are seerate from our soul. Our soul is like the forman who instructs the workers, but doesn't directly do the work, like the mind does.

Originally Posted by Frost Guardian

The soul is something that trascends any science in the world. It does not adhere to the laws of nature and is something that can't be explained by any rational method........ Basically, the brain does submit to scientific explanations, but the soul is seperate.

^Yeah. what he said ^

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Some atheists believe in souls/spirits. Materialists, like myself, don't.

I don't think I have ever met an athesit that wasn't a materialist. If they did beleive in things beyond the the pyhsical I wouldn't call them atheists anymore, thats just me. I only think of Atheists as being people with an understanding of the universe very much limited by their senses.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

Out of curiosity, in a materialistic view, what is the consciousness?

It is the fireing of nerves in certain parts of the brain, nothing more. To a materialist a human being is nothing more than a sack of chemicals. To a materialist, words like "soul" are meaningless.

Originally Posted by Ichabod_L

Who says it's God that puts us in a body?

Anyone who belives in God, and so most people.

Consciousness is a result of chemicals firing through the brain.

This is a very old fashond veiw, that the soul is physical and must "reside" somwhere. I think of the soul more as the essence of who we are, it is not physical like our bodies, our minds and brains are seerate from our soul. Our soul is like the forman who instructs the workers, but doesn't directly do the work, like the mind does.

I don't quite understand that. Possibly if you could reword that, I don't see how it wouldn't do work. Wouldn't the 'soul' be controlling the body and the mind, and so be pretty much doing the work anyways? I mean I don't consider my body or mind doing work usually, I consider myself (or my soul, whatever) doing it. Maybe I should just respond when I understand.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

Anyone who belives in God, and so most people.

Well that's a generality.

Scientologists believe in God, although not that He puts us in a body. So it may be true for most who believe in God, but not all.

Originally Posted by ChrisHoulihan

I'm confused here, you first say that a soul is basically our consciousness. Then you say that Artificial intelligence has consciousness but no soul. What is it about the human consciousness that sets it apart, that makes it a soul? You see I think it is more than just consciousness that defines a soul.

No, no, what I meant was that our consciousness serves the same purpose that most people think a soul would. It's a general assumption that without a soul we would all be zombie-like creatures with no emotions. It's also considered to be a representation of our life. Thus, artificial intelligence, while capable of consciousness, could not, by definition, have a soul.

This is a very old fashond veiw, that the soul is physical and must "reside" somwhere. I think of the soul more as the essence of who we are, it is not physical like our bodies, our minds and brains are seerate from our soul. Our soul is like the forman who instructs the workers, but doesn't directly do the work, like the mind does.

So, you think that we have a soul because you like to imagine that we should have a soul? By your above definition, I see no need for one.

^Yeah. what he said ^

Again, something does not exist simply because it's pleasant to think that it does exist.

I don't think I have ever met an athesit that wasn't a materialist. If they did beleive in things beyond the the pyhsical I wouldn't call them atheists anymore, thats just me. I only think of Atheists as being people with an understanding of the universe very much limited by their senses.

I don't happen to be a materialist, and I'm an atheist. I believe in ghosts and some paranormal oddities despite the fact that science deems such things impossible.

It is the fireing of nerves in certain parts of the brain, nothing more. To a materialist a human being is nothing more than a sack of chemicals. To a materialist, words like "soul" are meaningless.

Only because no one's ever proven that they exist. It's like God. You can't expect people to believe in such things when the only reason to believe in them is because they're something reassuring to think about.

Anyone who belives in God, and so most people.

A person who believes in God is not bound by his laws. I can believe in God but not believe in anything the Bible spews at me.

No, no, what I meant was that our consciousness serves the same purpose that most people think a soul would. It's a general assumption that without a soul we would all be zombie-like creatures with no emotions. It's also considered to be a representation of our life. Thus, artificial intelligence, while capable of consciousness, could not, by definition, have a soul.

Artificial intelligence, at best, is only limited to what it is programmed to do. If the computer's response to any statement or question is "Ok," would we consider it "conscious"? I doubt it. But let's say we have SmarterChild 6.0 running, with millions of pre-programmed responses. It's very close to real -- after all, you can almost have a meaningful conversation with it -- yet it is still limited by what it is told to do in certain situations. That is a limitation which cannot be overcome. Even if an artificial personality was programmed to search the web for any and all phrases, usable in context, it would still be limited to responding with preconceived, "real" responses by humans. That's simply how it is.

I don't happen to be a materialist, and I'm an atheist. I believe in ghosts and some paranormal oddities despite the fact that science deems such things impossible.

As off topic as this may be, I'd like to know what you believe about ghosts and the paranormal and how it correlates with your atheism.

Only because no one's ever proven that they exist. It's like God. You can't expect people to believe in such things when the only reason to believe in them is because they're something reassuring to think about.

Thankfully, we don't believe in God only because He's "reassuring." In fact, the idea of God is frightening to many people.

A person who believes in God is not bound by his laws. I can believe in God but not believe in anything the Bible spews at me.

What laws are we talking about here? Biblical laws or physical ones?

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

Artificial intelligence, at best, is only limited to what it is programmed to do. If the computer's response to any statement or question is "Ok," would we consider it "conscious"? I doubt it. But let's say we have SmarterChild 6.0 running, with millions of pre-programmed responses. It's very close to real -- after all, you can almost have a meaningful conversation with it -- yet it is still limited by what it is told to do in certain situations. That is a limitation which cannot be overcome. Even if an artificial personality was programmed to search the web for any and all phrases, usable in context, it would still be limited to responding with preconceived, "real" responses by humans. That's simply how it is.

It's true that an artificial intelligence is bound by what it is programmed to do. Though, when it is programmed to observe, deduce, and learn, its potential intelligence is boundless.

As off topic as this may be, I'd like to know what you believe about ghosts and the paranormal and how it correlates with your atheism.

I believe in different forms of psychic phenomenon, just because it peaks my interest. In my eyes, ghosts are imprints left by a person's consciousness after they die. Like burning an image into a strip of film.

Thankfully, we don't believe in God only because He's "reassuring." In fact, the idea of God is frightening to many people.

The concept, though, is primarily to help people accept death. There's nothing scary about dying if you think you're going to an eternal paradise.

What laws are we talking about here? Biblical laws or physical ones?

Biblical, obviously, as an imaginary deity has no influence on physical laws.