Were the Earth and animals, etc, created by random chance?

I wanted to know about what you people think about the Earth being created,ect. I honestly think it had to be God followed in some way. I'm not racist against evolutionists,but I just don't see how a person could think that we evolved from a...whatever,it makes more since to me that there has to be a God. To me,evolution is like saying we came from bug,how could that be possible?



Anyways,what do think, I would like to know.(I don't want to know if your a atheist,I don't care I just want to know what you think about the Earth blahblahblah.)

Wait till your older to learn more about evolution before drawing conclusions. I believe the Earth was a combination of both evolution and creationism. Instead of God starting from scratch every time he saw a flaw, he put in evolution.

Wow, this is actually a fairly short wait between creation of Earth/Evolution of man threads.

To start off, evolution makes no claims about the creation of Earth or life. All it is saying is that creatures will change through random mutations. The creatures with good mutations will survive better then those with bad or no mutations. This will lead to, over time, a bunch of very diverse species that are well (if not perfectly) suited to where they live.

Now, I'm going to do a very abridged history of the universe.

The first second: The universe exists. (If you want to get into the big bang I can cover that in a later post.) at this point it is a very dense, white-hot glob of plasma. Due to the force used in it's 'creation' it is expanding. As it expands it cools, and a few hundred thousand years later it has cooled so much that atoms can form. (At high enough temperatures atoms fly apart.)

Now, atoms can generate gravity, so they start being attracted to each other, after a while enough of them have gathered in a cluster that it starts undergoing a giant fusion reaction (Essentially exactly like the one going on in our Sun right now.), many of these groups of atoms are scattered throughout the universe.

Now, a fusion reactions generates energy by fusing two light atoms into one heavy one. Most stars get most of their energy from fusing two hydrogen atoms into a helium one, after they're out of hydrogen they start fusing heliums into yet heavier elements, all the way down the iron, beyond which they cannot fuse. So, after a few of these stars have fused all the elements in them into iron they run out of fuel and steadily lose a gas of heavier elements, the bigger ones explode, flinging iron and other elements out into space.

These elements are scattered very thin at first, but after enough time they start attracting each other much as the hydrogen atoms did. They group together to form planets, moons, asteroids, comets, and all sorts of similar celestial objects.

Now our scale of time shrinks drastically, as we're getting into the history of life on Earth.
Originally the Earth was simply a molten ball (When those elements collided they did so with quite a bit of force.) but after a while it cooled into something that, aside from the shape/position of the continents, looks pretty similar to the Earth we know, large rocky masses surrounded by an ocean.

However, the atmosphere was very different, there was no ozone layer, which meant that the various gases were not protected from the sun's UV rays. This means that as the gases floated around above the surface of this dead planet they'd be broken apart into, oddly enough, organic molecules. The almost constant lightning storms also helped break them apart. This lead to the surface of the Earth being coated in organic molecules, in the oceans it formed a sort of soup. Eventually, over millions, if not hundreds of millions, of years some of these floating molecules latched together (this is not unusual) into a form that could make very crude copies of itself (This is somewhat rarer.) it proceeded to, well, make copies of itself. Now, these copies had errors that lead to some of them being better able to copy themselves then others, these better copiers soon out populated the worse ones.

This kept happening for millions of years, with each generation, if you will, of this molecule being different from the one before it due to copying errors. Over time this lead to these molecules living in different ways, some started 'eating' other replicating molecules, others started getting raw materials from sunlight. We now have basic plants and herbivores. These plants released oxygen into the air. After a very long time they replaced the old atmosphere with a Nitrogen-Oxygen one, which more molecules evolved to breathe.

These breathing molecules were actually colonies of different ones, some of which would take in the oxygen and produce a waste that they couldn't use, but that the other ones could. We now have a very basic animal, a fish-like thing.

Over time these fish thing reproduced, making slightly imperfect copies of itself, some of which eventually could breathe the air without gills, slowly they colonized the land, with each new generation being better suited to living there.

Carry on this process long enough and you arrive at us humans.

Now, that's a long post, but is there anything in it that you find impossible?

Originally Posted by Earth

Wait till your older to learn more about evolution before drawing conclusions. I believe the Earth was a combination of both evolution and creationism. Instead of God starting from scratch every time he saw a flaw, he put in evolution.

ok, a mod can lock this thread,I think I made a mistake.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

ok, a mod can lock this thread,I think I made a mistake.

I don't really see a cause for that. You have issues with Evolution, we have answers. I, certainly, am more then willing to answer any questions you have. (Provided, of course, that I know the answer.)

Oh yeah, sure, we humans just happen to be as perfect and smart as we are, and the Earth just happens to be in the exact and perfect spot for our life to exist. By random chance. Yeah, right. There has to be a god. I don't argue with evolution, though.

Originally Posted by exrogeneral

Oh yeah, sure, we humans just happen to be as perfect and smart as we are

And here comes my big 'ole list of imperfections in humans (copyright 2005):
The appendix serves no purpose and can, in fact, be deadly.
The human spine is rather poorly-suited to the way humans stand/sit.
The human eye interferes with it's own operation.
Human eyes have a fairly large blind spot
The human brain is prone to making up things that just don't exist.
The human brain is prone to turning random noise into images/sounds.

The list goes on. Humans are far from perfect.

and the Earth just happens to be in the exact and perfect spot for our life to exist.

No matter what humans were like this would be the case, if we lived on Venus you'd still be making this argument, so it really just doesn't work.

By random chance.

Only half of evolution is random chance, the second half goes and selects what works.

To use an example I've used before:
Let's say you meet a man who claims to have flipped 1 000 coins and that all of them landed heads. This is amazing, in fact, the odds against it are 1 to 1 x10^301. However, you then watch him in action and see that he flips 10 coins, he then goes and looks at them, any coins that landed tails or on their sides he removes, only keeping the ones that landed heads. Now the situation has changed, the odds of him getting anything but heads is essentially nil, it no longer seems so amazing.

It's the same thing with evolution, sure the mutation part is random chance, but only the good mutations survive.

I don't think we're perfect, just more perfected than other creatures.
And what's your explination for what happen's to us after we die? We just cease to exist, and after a long while are forgotten, never thought of again? No thoughts, emotions, just emptiness forever? If so, that would really suck.
My point is do you even believe in a god, GDwarf?

Well, I don't argue with evolutionist,they got a different belife thats fine by me,but its like what Exrogeneral said,"do we just cease to exist?" Well, no, because we have have spirts,and where those spirts go to,Heaven,or Hell.

Originally Posted by exrogeneral

I don't think we're perfect, just more perfected than other creatures.

No, most other creatures are far better suited to doing what they do then we are.

And what's your explination for what happen's to us after we die? We just cease to exist, and after a long while are forgotten, never thought of again? No thoughts, emotions, just emptiness forever? If so, that would really suck.

Oh, I agree, it is rather unfortunate. (Although, since I've been routinely told I'll go to hell it's certainly better then that.) However, as I keep saying, reality doesn't have to obey what you think or feel.

My point is do you even believe in a god, GDwarf?

I do not.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

Well, I argue with evolutionist,they got a different belife thats fine by me,but its like what Exrogeneral said,"do we just cease to exist?" Well, no, because we have have spirts,and where those spirts go to,Heaven,or Hell.

This is getting off topic, but I'd want proof of spirits.
If you wish to provide some please do so via PM, I don't want to derail this thread.

I've always thought there had to be some greater being that created all of this. Why?

Some things seem so orchestrated in this universe, or atleast planet, like they were arranged by someone.

It really seems like someone or something wants life in the universe, badly. Why else are most creatures so eager to mate? And when you think about it, we are all mostly created just to mate and survive.

I can't quite put my thoughts into words or come up with good examples. However, think of things like cells in our body, and how they work. It's as if it was set up by a greater being.

I doubt some things just happen by themselves. I mean, sure, I don't think a greater being looks after every birth there is, I think that happens by itself. However, I think that a greater being started the machine, not that it runs it.

It feels really strange that random particles would suddenly lead to the creation of beings that have very complex bodies, with the brains and the blood and all that.

GDwarf, I think you and your drawn out explanations of the theory of evolution are awesome. Be my fwiend?

Originally Posted by exrogeneral

Oh yeah, sure, we humans just happen to be as perfect and smart as we are, and the Earth just happens to be in the exact and perfect spot for our life to exist. By random chance. Yeah, right. There has to be a god. I don't argue with evolution, though.

It was bound to happen eventually. Just like we'll eventually die out, and the entire process will start again.

And it think it goes without saying that the universe was created. If that was untrue, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I fail to see how it was created by some almighty divine being, though. I'm not saying that it can't be possible, but it would defy the laws of science and physics, which pretty much explain how the universe works. Are they perhaps a disguise to hide the being who truely created the universe? It's doubtful in my eyes.

Originally Posted by exrogeneral

I don't think we're perfect, just more perfected than other creatures.
And what's your explination for what happen's to us after we die? We just cease to exist, and after a long while are forgotten, never thought of again? No thoughts, emotions, just emptiness forever? If so, that would really suck.

It's a matter of accepting death. Some people use their faith in a religion to aid them accept the thought of death. I don't see how eternal unconsciousness is more terrifying than living in a corrupt world, though.

Edit: You people move fast when posting. I'll quote some of the ones I missed in a later post.

we have have spirts,and where those spirts go to,Heaven,or Hell.

exactly my point.

There's no proof that humans have spirits. There's no proof that spirits actually exist, either. A person's brain is what gives us our emotions, our thoughts, our opinions, and everything else that we feel and think. When I hear people talking about a person's spirit, they usually consider it to be a sort of life force. The truth is, there's no function in a human being that a spirit could act out that hasn't already been done by another part of the body.

Aside from that, what is there to say that spirits actually do exist? Other than, of course, religious beliefs?

I, personally, believe that God created everything, and that evolution had nothing do do with it. I also believe that little changes that have occurred since then can be called "evolution", but it only happens within a "kind" of animals. These changes are not random mutations in the DNA, rather the DNA contains all the coding for all the possible traits within a "kind".

Personally, I don't have enough faith in the supernatural to believe in evolution, and I must applause those who have the ability to believe in a hypothesis so incredibly unlikely and that has no evidence to support it.

Originally Posted by Aerixeth

There's no proof that humans have spirits.

No proof,but how could we show you proof if we can't see our spirit.
One thing is that, where do we go if we die, just die out,rot in a coffen,and thats it,what a sorry life.
How do we know if we have a spirit?We don't know,same way with the people that don't think we have a spirit,don't have any proof that a spirit doesn't exist.

(And this is getting a bit off topic.)

Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon

Personally, I don't have enough faith in the supernatural to believe in evolution, and I must applause those who have the ability to believe in a hypothesis so incredibly unlikely and that has no evidence to support it.

Actually, evolution isn't a supernatural occurrence. I find that comment odd. It doesn't make sense to me that people could look at evolution, a theory that at least has scientific support, and say that it is unlikely compared to the belief that there is an almighty, divine being, which is a theory that has absolutely no valid support.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

No proof,but how could we show you proof if we can't see our spirit.
One thing is that, where do we go if we die, just die out,rot in a coffen,and thats it,what a sorry life.
How do we know if we have a spirit?We don't know,same way with the people that don't think we have a spirit,don't have any proof that a spirit doesn't exist.

(And this is getting a bit off topic.)

While I do see how we are wandering slightly off topic with the subject of spirits, it does relate to the intended subject. If God exists, and he created us, then I would be willing to bet that he would give us spirits or souls, or whatever. If not, though, then it seems highly unlikely that they exist.

And yes, I do realize that there is nothing to say that a spirit could not exist, however, there is also nothing to suggest that they do exist, as it has already been pointed out. In addition to that, there is really nothing about the human anatomy (or that of any aminal) that points towards the existence of a spirit, nor the need for one. Thus, it is only logical to assume - seeing as we have no proof to tilt our beliefs in either direction - that a spirit does not exist.

Originally Posted by Aerixeth

Actually, evolution isn't a supernatural occurrence. I find that comment odd. It doesn't make sense to me that people could look at evolution, a theory that at least has scientific support, and say that it is unlikely compared to the belief that there is an almighty, divine being, which is a theory that has absolutely no valid support.



While I do see how we are wandering slightly off topic with the subject of spirits, it does relate to the intended subject. If God exists, and he created us, then I would be willing to bet that he would give us spirits or souls, or whatever. If not, though, then it seems highly unlikely that they exist.

And yes, I do realize that there is nothing to say that a spirit could not exist, however, there is also nothing to suggest that they do exist, as it has already been pointed out. In addition to that, there is really nothing about the human anatomy (or that of any aminal) that points towards the existence of a spirit, nor the need for one. Thus, it is only logical to assume - seeing as we have no proof to tilt our beliefs in either direction - that a spirit does not exist.

I usually stay out of I:SB but I have something to say.

You state there is no evidence proving a sprite exists which is correct but you also state there is no evidence saying spirites dont exist which is also correct. So why given this knowlage do you come to the conclusion they don't exist. It just seems odd you would take a lack of information and using that state a theory. If there is no proof to point in either direction why should we fall onto one direction instead of staying in the middle.

For the record I belive there is a God and made the orginal organsims and helped them evolve.

Originally Posted by Aerixeth

Actually, evolution isn't a supernatural occurrence. I find that comment odd. It doesn't make sense to me that people could look at evolution, a theory that at least has scientific support, and say that it is unlikely compared to the belief that there is an almighty, divine being, which is a theory that has absolutely no valid support.

Louis Pasteur himself proved that life cannot come from non-life. The idea of life starting spontaneously without any previous life, as the hypothesis of evolution states, is absurd. Science, here, has disproved evolution.

However, with Creationism, there is evidence. Archaeological digs have found the ancient cities of Jericho, and Sodom and Gomorrah. (I'm not sure if both Sodom and Gomorrah had been found. It may have been just one.) With Jericho, it is said that instead of the the walls falling in, as with a normal siege, the walls fell outward, as if a giant hand fell on the city.

With Sodom and Gomorrah, it has been proved that there was a fire that burned the cities to the ground and that the fire was so intense that the heat changed the color of the bricks! It was no accidental fire that grew from a mere fallen torch, but a fire that could only have been supernatural (unless they had the atomic bomb back then).

You may think that these facts have nothing to do with proving Creationism, and you're right...in a way. However, these facts do prove that at least some of the supernatural events in the Bible are true, and if some supernatural events in the Bible are true, then there is no reason not to assume that the other supernatural events in the Bible are also true.

There is no way to prove that a divine being supernaturally created the universe because science is incapable of doing so. There was only One who was present at the beginning of the universe, and that's God, and He did give us an account of what happened. It's just up to you to believe it. Personally, I prefer to believe in a God that created me and loves me over the idea that I evolved from apes and have no purpose in life. I prefer to believe that God created the universe over the incalculably remote idea that everything just "happened", and so incredibly perfectly too.

Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon

I, personally, believe that God created everything, and that evolution had nothing do do with it. I also believe that little changes that have occurred since then can be called "evolution", but it only happens within a "kind" of animals. These changes are not random mutations in the DNA, rather the DNA contains all the coding for all the possible traits within a "kind".

Why would it only stop at kinds, though? After all, the only difference between different 'kinds' is how long ago they took separate evolutionary paths. What is this artificial barrier that would stop mutations across kinds?

Personally, I don't have enough faith in the supernatural to believe in evolution, and I must applause those who have the ability to believe in a hypothesis so incredibly unlikely and that has no evidence to support it.

Lessee, evolution is supported by:
The fossil record.
Every single test ever done to genetics.
Observations of how animals are (almost) perfectly suited to what they do.

That's hardly no evidence. I'm also confused as to why you think that evolution is supernatural. Mind telling us why you think so?

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

No proof,but how could we show you proof if we can't see our spirit.
One thing is that, where do we go if we die, just die out,rot in a coffen,and thats it,what a sorry life.

Once again, and please actually read it this time: Reality has no obligation to change how it works to suit what you think is right.

How do we know if we have a spirit?We don't know,same way with the people that don't think we have a spirit,don't have any proof that a spirit doesn't exist.

There's something called the burden of proof, it's up to you (the one making the claim that spirits do exist) to prove it. Otherwise we would have to believe everything that we don't have proof for or against. (Which would lead me to conclude that you're really a demon alien who escaped from the game Doom 26 in the year 100 BC but travelled through time and took over the internet. See the problem?)

Originally Posted by Puck the Trickster

I usually stay out of I:SB but I have something to say.

You state there is no evidence proving a sprite exists which is correct but you also state there is no evidence saying spirites dont exist which is also correct. So why given this knowlage do you come to the conclusion they don't exist. It just seems odd you would take a lack of information and using that state a theory. If there is no proof to point in either direction why should we fall onto one direction instead of staying in the middle.

Once again, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon

Louis Pasteur himself proved that life cannot come from non-life. The idea of life starting spontaneously without any previous life, as the hypothesis of evolution states, is absurd. Science, here, has disproved evolution.

Do you know what that experiment even was? Or what it was trying to prove?
The idea when Pasteur was alive was that 'life' would come from whatever inanimate thing you found it on, so maggots would just appear out of meat, mosquitoes out of swamps, etc. Pasteur did an experiment that showed that that was not the case. However, all he did was show that maggots don't come from meat, he didn't show that molecules cannot arise from other molecules, which is all that is being claimed here. This is basic grade 9 science, I'm surprised you don't know it.

However, with Creationism, there is evidence. Archaeological digs have found the ancient cities of Jericho, and Sodom and Gomorrah. (I'm not sure if both Sodom and Gomorrah had been found. It may have been just one.) With Jericho, it is said that instead of the the walls falling in, as with a normal siege, the walls fell outward, as if a giant hand fell on the city.

Actually, IIRC, Jericho's walls show no signs of being knocked down at all, but I'll have to confirm that. Anyways, how is this proof of creationism? If I wrote a book claiming that aliens ruled the world would you consider it fact simply because I accurately described London, England in it?

With Sodom and Gomorrah, it has been proved that there was a fire that burned the cities to the ground and that the fire was so intense that the heat changed the color of the bricks! It was no accidental fire that grew from a mere fallen torch, but a fire that could only have been supernatural (unless they had the atomic bomb back then).

Source? You'd also be surprised just how hot a perfectly 'normal' fire can be. After all, they used fire to make their bricks.

There is no way to prove that a divine being supernaturally created the universe because science is incapable of doing so. There was only One who was present at the beginning of the universe, and that's God, and He did give us an account of what happened. It's just up to you to believe it. Personally, I prefer to believe in a God that created me and loves me over the idea that I evolved from apes and have no purpose in life.

Once again, reality doesn't have anything to do with what you believe.

I prefer to believe that God created the universe over the incalculably remote idea that everything just "happened", and so incredibly perfectly too.

Actually, the odds of it happening are 100%, after all, it did. I once again draw your attention to the coin-flipping scenario, it looks impossible at first, but upon closer examination you see that it's incredibly likely. Finally, as to the 'perfection' argument, as long as humans existed that claim would be made, even if we had 10 arms 20 eyes and were 1 foot tall. As such it's a pointless one to make.