Were the Earth and animals, etc, created by random chance?

Originally Posted by jesusworshiper

Okay, but the reason I was 'bashing' because I've been brought up to not beleive in evolution. And I have watched a few documentaries about evolution. I have questioned it and thought if it could be true, I admit, but the more I think about it the more it sounds stupid. No offense, but I don't think it's true. And there is more to Jesus being existant, than evolution. The Arc of Covenant, Noah's Ark, Jesus' brother James, and the Mount Siani where the Exodus was found.

Yet you don't know enough to know that humans didn't evolve from apes? As for Jesus and evolution, I fail to see any connection at all between the two.

Yet you don't know enough to know that humans didn't evolve from apes?

Technically, Evolutionists believe they came from the same ancestor, but for some reason the group that evolved into apes never evolved as much as the group that turned into humans did.

Though to be fair to jw, the supposed ancestor that both groups evolved from would have looked so much like an ape, that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Originally Posted by jesusworshiper

Yes you can argue with the evolutionists. They all say that we came from somthing like an ape or bug or whatever, but there is a missing link to it all. So they are all just a bunch of crazies believing in anything, in my oppinion. And it depends what your spirit beleives in.

Yes, I do agree to some degree. But, there is a thing that might disprove evolution a wee bit. Ok, A cealicanthe fish,that some evolutionist say,changed from millions of year over time,when some seafishermen caught one,and it hadn't changed one bit. I don't know anything for sure,no one does.
Anyways,the point is that,evolution is wrong,the only proof you could get of evolution is going back in time,and experinseing it for yourself,which is impossible to do. I have no proof of anything. But, I just don't see us,being the creators of ourselfs,in other words,"the ultimate species."

So, no. Earth,ect. was created by some creator of some sort.

Originally Posted by jesusworshiper

Maybe it was a cave man that looked like an ape?

Oh, too, cavemen don't exist,never did,never will.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

Yes, I do agree to some degree. But, the is a thing that might disprove evolution a wee bit. Ok, A cealicanthe fish,that some evolutionist say,changed from millions of year over time,when some seafishermen caught one,and it hadn't changed one bit. I don't know anything for sure,no one does.
Anyways,the point is that,evolution is wrong,the only proof you could get of evolution is going back in time,and experinseing it for yourself,which is impossible to do. I have no proof of anything. But, I just don't see us,being the creators of ourselfs,in other words,"the ultimate species."

So, no. Earth,ect. was created by some creator of some sort.

Oh, too, cavemen don't exist,never did,never will.

Oh.

I think that no can create themselves and the evolution theory is proven, but it wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the creator. Remember, God works in mysterious ways that unravel throughout the universe in time via conscience, the mysterious piece of matter.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

Yes, I do agree to some degree. But, there is a thing that might disprove evolution a wee bit. Ok, A cealicanthe fish,that some evolutionist say,changed from millions of year over time,when some seafishermen caught one,and it hadn't changed one bit. I don't know anything for sure,no one does.
Anyways,the point is that,evolution is wrong,the only proof you could get of evolution is going back in time,and experinseing it for yourself,which is impossible to do. I have no proof of anything. But, I just don't see us,being the creators of ourselfs,in other words,"the ultimate species."

So, no. Earth,ect. was created by some creator of some sort.

Alright, first off, you have no evidence or source to back up your claims. You are stating your opinion without backing it up. It's true because I said so only works in kindergarten. Where did you hear about this 'cealicanthe fish'? Can you give us any online link to a page about this fish? Words are useless unless you have solid evidence to back them up. I believe in God. I have experienced him first hand, but that is something that I experienced, not anybody else. Christianity cannot be proven to some people because it lacks good enough evidence.

You've got to realize not everyone is going to believe your beliefs. They are going to tell you are wrong, but that doesn't give you the right to tell them that. For all you know, God invented evolution. That they way this world works is because he did it, but we can't see that evidence because he didn't leave it. All we have are fossil records about ancient times. Those fossils are enough evidence for the atheists. You see, Christians don't need a lot of proof to make us believe in God. For the atheists, you need actual solid, inrefutable evidence that points to God and can't be explained by logic. Even then, they will have a hard time believing.

Telling people they are wrong blantantly in Serious Business without some source is just not very professional. You need to bring some discussion to this thread. You are just stating your opinion without knowledge. In actuality, your post is just spam because it has added nothing to this conversation.

Oh, too, cavemen don't exist,never did,never will.

Please explain why we have humanoid fossils.

I usually don't post in Serious Business for the very reason, I don't know enough about the things that are discussed in this thread. I know I wouldn't stand very strong against GDwarf or Mad Hatter, because they know what they are talking about. But since I have already jumped into this discussion, will put something into it. Truth be told, I know very little abot evolution. So my room to talk about it is very limited. I do know that it is about how species adapt to their enviroments to make the most of them and increase their chances of survival. I also know that the process of evolution also eliminates other speicies by the same process. I think it is very possible, in fact, it is. Why isn't the Dodo around anymore? They were not fit to live, even though their extinction wasn't their fault.

I also believe in God. Partly because I was born in a Christian family and Christianity was taught to me. I believe that God did create this Earth and that the bounds at which science explains it are very possible. I personally, don't try to think about such things as why we are here? Or 'How did we come to exist?' because those questions don't really interest me. I am open to what everyone has to say. I think that everything that someone believes has some truth to it. Maybe this make me a 'bad' Christian to think that evolution is possible. I am also a believer that not everything has to be in the Bible to be true. The Bible is God's Word, but it doesn't have to cover every question we have. My isn't in the Bible because we don't need to know. That's how I feel about it.

Oh, jesusworshiper, put thought into your reponses than just 'oh'. It is spam. This is a discussion forum.

Sidenote: I would like some credible sources about evolution if anyone cares to give them to me. I haven't taken time to read this thread completely. When I have, I might have a better arguement to make.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

Oh, too, cavemen don't exist,never did,never will.

Ah, yes, I see the light now! I suppose the dinosaurs are just a figment of our imagination, too, then?

As far as I see it, the only argument that creationists could possibly come up with that sounds even remotely decent is that there is some divine being, and that he created the laws of physics in order to throw us off. Even then, why not just believe that we evolved? At least evolution has more than a book and blind faith across the world to back it up.

And yes, I know, I'm no scientist with super fancy links and explanations and such, but my commom sense has yet to leave me.

Originally Posted by Aerixeth

Ah, yes, I see the light now! I suppose the dinosaurs are just a figment of our imagination, too, then?

uhhh.....no, I never said dinosaurs didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Mark Anderson12

Alright, first off, you have no evidence or source to back up your claims. You are stating your opinion without backing it up. It's true because I said so only works in kindergarten. Where did you hear about this 'cealicanthe fish'? Can you give us any online link to a page about this fish? Words are useless unless you have solid evidence to back them up.

Um, if you have the science channel on satilite TV. thats were I saw it on. I might find a vid,don't know for sure yet.

Originally Posted by Aerixeth

As far as I see it, the only argument that creationists could possibly come up with that sounds even remotely decent is that there is some divine being, and that he created the laws of physics in order to throw us off. Even then, why not just believe that we evolved? At least evolution has more than a book and blind faith across the world to back it up.

And yes, I know, I'm no scientist with super fancy links and explanations and such, but my commom sense has yet to leave me.

Yes, a book of blind faith is more wise than saying we came from an ape, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Mark Anderson12

Where did you hear about this 'cealicanthe fish'? Can you give us any online link to a page about this fish? .

Here's an entire website dedicated to this living fossil.

I agree with Mark Anderson's idea, since I am a christian too. If you read all of the theories that scientist have only one is proven, but is proven only by faith and that theory is the theory of evolution my friends. Think about, go indepth for the truth but you'll find nothing but a endless explanation its like the variable x which can represent anything.

We can't prove anything really, creationism,or evolution. Why evolution? Because its like sheer guessing, you can't prove we came from a monkey. The fossils are sometimes wrong the way some scientist date them,errors come up on the dating process,its mostly not exact. Example: these guys got a snail shell,they killed the snail,and carbon dated it, It said it was 10,000 years old.

We, can't really prove anything is exactly correct. Nothing is perfect. Give me proof that the proof of evolution is correct.

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

Yes, I do agree to some degree. But, there is a thing that might disprove evolution a wee bit. Ok, A cealicanthe fish,that some evolutionist say,changed from millions of year over time,when some seafishermen caught one,and it hadn't changed one bit. I don't know anything for sure,no one does.

Which simply means that it was suited well enough to it's environment that it didn't have to change to survive.

Anyways,the point is that,evolution is wrong,the only proof you could get of evolution is going back in time,and experinseing it for yourself,which is impossible to do.

So you're just ignoring Genetics and the fossil record, then?

Oh, too, cavemen don't exist,never did,never will.

Erm, what? I really don't know what to say to this one. Why didn't Cavemen exist? how do you explain their skeletons? Their tools? Their cave-drawings?

We can't prove anything really, creationism,or evolution.

Well, we can prove things beyond a reasonable doubt.

Why evolution? Because its like sheer guessing, you can't prove we came from a monkey.

No, but I can prove that there are fossils strongly indicating that we did evolve from something very similar to a monkey, I can also show that we share a massive amount of genetic code with monkies.

The fossils are sometimes wrong the way some scientist date them,errors come up on the dating process,its mostly not exact.

Here's a question, how would you know if the dating process was wrong? I know the answer, do you?

Example: these guys got a snail shell,they killed the snail,and carbon dated it, It said it was 10,000 years old.

Carbon-14 dating doesn't work on creatures that live a (relatively) short time ago, every scientist worth his salt knows that.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Erm, what? I really don't know what to say to this one. Why didn't Cavemen exist? how do you explain their skeletons? Their tools? Their cave-drawings?

Well, this is hard for me to say.(try to understand) ok, yes, people were there a loooooong time ago,but we really don't know for sure if those people were animal like, or just regular homosapians that weren't educated,and had to become educated.(by things,and what not.)I can't really say that right,so, try to understand my meaning.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

No, but I can prove that there are fossils strongly indicating that we did evolve from something very similar to a monkey, I can also show that we share a massive amount of genetic code with monkies.

Yes, we do share 90 something percent of DNA, but do you know where we got our non-understanding emotions. Sure, all animals have emotions to some extint,but ours are more complex. Hrrmm, you might think that we need stronger emotions to live in our enviroment, well that doesn't make any sense to say that.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

Carbon-14 dating doesn't work on creatures that live a (relatively) short time ago, every scientist worth his salt knows that.

Well, i'm no scientist. You may be the smartest person I know,but I doubt your a scientest too. Two, I was setting an example.(maybe the example wasn't good enough.)

Before we tear thegamer apart too much, just keep in mind that he's 11 years old, and probably hasn't ever taken a biology course. While he mentions some advanced concepts, it's because he's watched creationist videos, and tries to regurgitate some of the arguments, regardless of whether or not he understands them. It's like a game of broken telephone.

If his parents are the ones feeding him the material, I feel very sorry for him. Maybe instead of strictly refuting his arguments, we should point him to some good sources.

Here are some lessons that look good, although I haven't had time to give them a good look. I'd also recommend the PBS video series on evolution.

This article is probably the best, though, if you have the patience to read the whole thing.


GDwarf, if you're familiar with any good sources for people around his age, I'd encourage you to post them.

Mark Anderson, here is a large collection of evidence for evolution, which you may want to check out. It's a long read, but it's very interesting.

Mad Hatter, here is some creationism sorces I found.http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Before we tear thegamer apart too much, just keep in mind that he's 11 years old, and probably hasn't ever taken a biology course. While he mentions some advanced concepts, it's because he's watched creationist videos, and tries to regurgitate some of the arguments, regardless of whether or not he understands them. It's like a game of broken telephone.

no, My dad tells me some things, I useually pick the rest up on my own.(I really don't know how.)

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

Well, this is hard for me to say.(try to understand) ok, yes, people were there a loooooong time ago,but we really don't know for sure if those people were animal like, or just regular homosapians that weren't educated,and had to become educated.(by things,and what not.)I can't really say that right,so, try to understand my meaning.

I see what you mean. You're half right. Cavemen were, at some point a different species then us, and for a fair amount of time our current species of humans were cavemen.

Yes, we do share 90 something percent of DNA, but do you know where we got our non-understanding emotions. Sure, all animals have emotions to some extint,but ours are more complex. Hrrmm, you might think that we need stronger emotions to live in our enviroment, well that doesn't make any sense to say that.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you. What do emotions have to do with how closely we're related?

Well, i'm no scientist. You may be the smartest person I know,but I doubt your a scientest too. Two, I was setting an example.(maybe the example wasn't good enough.)

Fair enough. I'm certainly no scientist, I'm just entering grade 12. You actually highlight a very real problem, unless you devote quite a bit of time to reaserching evolution, dating techniques, and similar things it's very hard to know if what you're being told is true or not, and why it's like that. MH's previous post should help quite a bit though, websites dedicated to the topic can be quite useful, provided they aren't the ones spreading misinformation. (To tell which ones are genuine and which ones aren't can also be hard.) Unfortunately I don't know of any sites off the top of my head that give a basic understanding and some evidence.

Originally Posted by GDwarf

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you. What do emotions have to do with how closely we're related?

I can see now that that wasn't a good example either. What I was trying to say, is that we are alot different than animals,all animals by a long shot.(I would explain more,but my fingers are wearing out by posting so.)

Originally Posted by theGA/\/\Er

I can see now that that wasn't a good example either. What I was trying to say, is that we are alot different than animals,all animals by a long shot.(I would explain more,but my fingers are wearing out by posting so.)

Not by so much, we share a similar skeleton with a fair number, we're mammals, as are thousands of animals, we have fingers, eyes, noses, mouths, etc. The biggest difference between us and apes is intelligence, and intelligence is hardly an impossibly big difference.

Originally Posted by Aerixeth

As far as I see it, the only argument that creationists could possibly come up with that sounds even remotely decent is that there is some divine being, and that he created the laws of physics in order to throw us off. Even then, why not just believe that we evolved? At least evolution has more than a book and blind faith across the world to back it up.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Creationism a "blind faith". There are reasons why we believe what we do. I believe in creationism for a reason, not just because some book tells me it's true. From what I observe and learn, evidence seems to point toward some kind of Divine Being that created everything. My reasons are as follows:

• Uber complexity of life. Has there ever even been an expirement to test abiogenesis? I hilghy doubt that a bunch of random chemicals mixed together to become some kind of a functioning living unit.
• Inacurate dating methods. One must first know how much of the parent substance was in the tested object to know exactly how old it is. We can't do that, so these dating methods are pretty much based on assumptions.
• Uber complexity of the human mind. We seem to think in ways that no other animal can. If we are so closely related to apes, why doesn't their psyche even compare to ours?
• Our conseption of Music and Rhythm. Music doesn't aid us in survival in any way. Why was it "developed" Aslo, no other animal on earth has a conseption of music. Only humans. It is something we're born with; even infants bounce up and down to a beat.
• Ect.

Now, to you, this may not seem like evidence, but in my eyes, it is. This is not blind faith because I have reasons to believe it other than just because someone said it's true. So no, Creationism isn't a "blind faith". To me it looks like atheistic evolutionists have a LOT of "faith" in "blind chance".

Anyway, here are some links proCreationism (this time I actually looked over them).

The Midochondrial Eve
Because Galaxies Are Billions of Light-Years Away, Isn’t the Universe Billions of Years Old?
If the Sun and Stars Were Created on Day 4, What Was the Light of Day 1?
What Was Archaeopteryx?
How accurate is Carbon Dating?
www.creationscience.com
http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm
Article on the Existance of God

Originally Posted by Yottabyte

I wouldn't go so far as to call Creationism a "blind faith". There are reasons why we believe what we do. I believe in creationism for a reason, not just because some book tells me it's true. From what I observe and learn, evidence seems to point toward some kind of Divine Being that created everything. My reasons are as follows:

• Uber complexity of life. Has there ever even been an expirement to test abiogenesis? I hilghy doubt that a bunch of random chemicals mixed together to become some kind of a functioning living unit.

Yet the laws of chemistry say it's entirely possible.

• Inacurate dating methods. One must first know how much of the parent substance was in the tested object to know exactly how old it is. We can't do that, so these dating methods are pretty much based on assumptions.

No, everything is dated using substances that we know the base amount of.

• Uber complexity of the human mind. We seem to think in ways that no other animal can. If we are so closely related to apes, why doesn't their psyche even compare to ours?

Because, I don't know, we have a brain twice the size of theirs?

• Our conseption of Music and Rhythm. Music doesn't aid us in survival in any way. Why was it "developed" Aslo, no other animal on earth has a conseption of music. Only humans. It is something we're born with; even infants bounce up and down to a beat.

Source for babies reacting to music?
Anyways, once again, if your brain is twice the size of something else's it stands to reason that it'll be able to do more. Couple that with the fact that humans are capable of an incredibly wide range of communication (which has an evolutionary advantage) and our love of music isn't too hard to see.

By the way, those points seem familiar, did you just copy them off of a creationist website? If so I must ask you to not do that, if I wanted to I could do the same thing with a pro-evolution website.

Now, to you, this may not seem like evidence, but in my eyes, it is. This is not blind faith because I have reasons to believe it other than just because someone said it's true. So no, Creationism isn't a "blind faith". To me it looks like atheistic evolutionists have a LOT of "faith" in "blind chance".

Have you read any of my posts at all? I've addressed both of those ideas.
Besides, even if evolution is wrong, that doesn't prove creationism right, and I note that you don't list any evidence that proves creationism to the extent that you demand evolution be proved.

Anyway, here are some links proCreationism (this time I actually looked over them).

The Midochondrial Eve
Because Galaxies Are Billions of Light-Years Away, Isn’t the Universe Billions of Years Old?
If the Sun and Stars Were Created on Day 4, What Was the Light of Day 1?
What Was Archaeopteryx?
How accurate is Carbon Dating?
www.creationscience.com
http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm
Article on the Existance of God

I have one source that tops them all. However, I must ask that you not just link to sites, paraphrase what they say, otherwise MH and I have to go through countless links to try and figure out what your point is.

Anyways, what's this source of mine? http://www.talkorigins.org/ , I guarantee that it will show every single creationist website you link to to be wrong.