Does there exist a truly selfless act?

Caution: Theoretical Thread

While I was out riding my bike this morning, thoughts of my school's volunteer organization, key club, randomly popped in my head. Specifically, the way the club leader harped about how, "these girls (becuase there were no boys) are devoted to their community and really care about helping out."

Maybe, but would they still volunteer if they were given no recognition? Or if it didn't improve their college applications? Or, heck, even if doing so failed to offer them an opportunity to make friends or feel good about themselves?

I'm not trying to discourage people from pitching in, by the way. I'm merely saying that it is my current belief (they change often) that every gesture, even those seemingly selfless in nature, are in some way driven by self-interest.

For example, kindness. Of course you want to be kind to someone. No one said self-interest can't be beneficial to both you and others. But, isn't it true that, by being kind, you are trying to gain one or more of the following?

-Goodwill
-A friend
-Favors (now or in the future)
-Acceptance

I've typically found that people who are not interested in your company will not treat you as well . . . I don't see this as a coincidence. I can't deny that I'm guilty of it as well. I'd like to believe that I treat everyone respectfully, but does that mean that I'm as outwardly kind and engaging to everyone? Definitely not.

How about presenting some one a gift?

-Goodwill
-Indebt them to you (even if you deny it at the time)
-Appear generous to others

Ironically, I find most people to be surprisingly generous. I know that I am. Helping others makes you feel good about yourself, and is an easy way to make a friend (or someone who will constantly use you)

I'll conclude by saying that I feel we are all inherently self-interested, and that I do not believe a selfless gesture exists, yet I also believe this should not necessarily be seen as a negative, but a fact of life.

Agree/Disagree?

I think if you push it to the very limit there is a reason for everything. Like if you save someone or just help them or whatnot you may later get recognition for it. But on the other hand do you know your going to get a reward ? no you dont so yes there is such a thing as a selfless act in the manner that you do not know your getting anything, so what pushes you to do it?

Good point.

Spontaneously saving someone could be seen as a selfless act. It definitely counts, but is still a rather abnormal situation in day to day life.

But, isn't it true that, by being kind, you are trying to gain one or more of the following?

What about being kind to someone you'll:

1) Never see again.
2) Be insulted, put down, or otherwise hurt by within the next few days, if certain trends continue.
3) Almost regret helping later,

and doing so despite already knowing these things?

There's also dying to save another's life.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

What about being kind to someone you'll:

1) Never see again.
2) Be insulted, put down, or otherwise hurt by within the next few days, if certain trends continue.
3) Almost regret helping later.

1) How do you know you'll never see them again? I know I won't be seeing a lot of my peers again in the next couple of years, but that doesn't stop me from trying to gain goodwill in the present.
2.) You could be attempting to get on their good side. By being nice to a bully, for example, you could be trying to build rapport or gain sympathy.
3.) How do you know what will happen later?

Well, you just edited your post to add

and doing so despite already knowing these things?

For situation 1, as I said before, you still want goodwill in the present. If this is the absolute last time you're seeing someone, then you want to part ways on a good note, and be remembered in a positive way.

For situation 3, I don't necessarily know how you can realistically be sure that you'll regret helping them later. Even if they've disappointed you numerous times in the past, you can't be sure that they'll disappoint again.

Originally Posted by Shiek 84

Good point.

Spontaneously saving someone could be seen as a selfless act. It definitely counts, but is still a rather abnormal situation in day to day life.

Doesnt have to be saving someone, just picking up a wallet on the street, finding someone's dog. Saving someone's life also doesnt have to be taking a bullet for them, donating good ammounts of money you rightfully earned to a cancer foundation or to help someone, you dont expect recognition form that other than the satisfaction to know you helped someone somewhere.

Originally Posted by Sheik 84

For example, kindness. Of course you want to be kind to someone. No one said self-interest can't be beneficial to both you and others. But, isn't it true that, by being kind, you are trying to gain one or more of the following?

-Goodwill
-A friend
-Favors (now or in the future)
-Acceptance

Well, I won't deny that that does happen sometimes. But not always. I do believe people can do something for another without wanting something in return. I think even that 'feel good' vibe you get afterward is something that just comes with doing something nice for another person. I mean, maybe some people will do something nice to make themselves feel good (and I say that without trying to make it look like it's a selfish ambition >_o) but sometimes people do nice stuff for others without letting them know of their deeds. Sure, they feel good after that, but I wouldn't say that they had set out to do a good deed with the feeling good afterward as their end goal, you know? Not always. This is a hard question to answer because the only person who is sure of the intentions of the deed, is the person who's doin' it... Blah, I've lost my train of thought XD. Forgive the rambling ^^;;;;;;.

Originally Posted by Shiek 84

1) How do you know you'll never see them again? I know I won't be seeing a lot of my peers again in the next couple of years, but that doesn't stop me from trying to gain goodwill in the present.

Generally, when you're halfway across the country from where you live, you probably won't see the people you meet again.

2.) You could be attempting to get on their good side. By being nice to a bully, for example, you could be trying to build rapport or gain sympathy.

It's impossible to be on my ex-girlfriend's good side unless you give her "what she wants." I figured this out, and yet I still help her. Why? Not because I have anything to gain. She hates me.

3.) How do you know what will happen later?

Experience...?

For situation 1, as I said before, you still want goodwill in the present. If this is the absolute last time you're seeing someone, then you want to part ways on a good note, and be remembered in a positive way.

Pulling a random person out of the way of a bus is hardly selfish. Unless of course you expect something in return. I never do. I turn down any such things, unless I'm in some real need.

Even if they've disappointed you numerous times in the past, you can't be sure that they'll disappoint again.

You also ought not have any expectation that they won't disappoint again.

There's no such thing as a self-less act. Take the volunteering for an example. If you helped someone out, you expected them to say at least a "thank-you" to you. Yet, would you continue to volunteer and help people out when none of them ever said "thank-you"? I doubt you will. The thing is, we all expect something in return. The only difference between volunteering or "close-to-a-self-less-act" and actual actions that require something in return is the degree of rewards you want to recieve.

I don't think there is such a thing as a selfless act. Or a pure heart. Or a pure emotion. Every emotion or act has other things tempered into it. Humans are too complicated, and so are our emotions.

I find myself to be a very selfish person. I do "nice" things for other people, to get acceptance, make friends, and make myself feel better. But I also enjoy doing nice things for other people, because I know it makes them happy. I do it for both selfish and unselfish reason. So not really black and white terms as selfish/selfless, but something inbetween. Black and white terms are kind of romanticized. I like the idea of the topic title.

I must admit, I am beginning to not enjoy doing nice things for my friends. Occasionally, some of them are truely ungrateful, and begin to demand favours off me.

You find a sweater on the floor at your school. You pick it up and jog down to the office. While the lady at the desk has her back turned you drop it in the Lost and Found Box. You are doing a good deed by returning the sweater and, obviously, expect nothing in return because you did so secretly.

Even picking up a piece of trash blankmindedly is a selfless act. While you pick up the trash you are not thinking about doing it. You could be listening to Billy Joel and not even realize what you have done. By being ignorant in this way, you can perform a selfless act.

Like Phesh said. Of course you can preform a purely selfless act. Easily. Daily.

When my sister wants to get on the computer, I can give it up to her. She never thanks me, never repays the favor (she always forgets I did it for her), and I gain absolutely nothing for it. I'm older than her, and could keep my place of the computer easily with little trouble from her. I just get off for her, because I do.

Just now, when I cleaned the crumbs off of the kitchen table after having a small snack, it's selfless. If I didn't, no one would know they were my crumbs, and I could get away with it without feeling guilty. But I clean them up anyway. I don't really notice.

Right now I could be straightening up that lopsided pile of CD's off to my right. If I did, it would keep them better organized, but wouldn't benefit me in any way. They aren't my CD's, and no one would notice that the pile's been straightened.

To be selfless is to do something in which the motivation isn't about you. Acts like that are extremely common.

I have done volunteer work before and I didn't get a "thank-you" but that didn't bother me. I think that a truly unselfish act is done when you do something without expecting anyoune to find out about it or one in which you don't benefit from it in any way. Sure I feel happy with myself for doing things for others but that's acceptable. The nature of your actions is manifested in the heart.

Doy uo really ever see big names donating a large sum of moner to a relief system or to a country without hearing about it? No.

If you do something in the complete knowing that you will not be known for that act or thanked. That will be your selfless act.

My answer to all the people saying that things like:

-Returning a bill fold
-Putting an item in the lost and found
-Getting off the computer for a sibling

are selfless acts is this; They are not, because by doing them, you tend to improve your opinion about yourself, and you are trying to improve your status in the eyes of your god, and by not doing them, you would feel guilty. I find it difficult to believe that one would return a lost bill fold for the sole purpose of helping someone they'll never meet--that's part of it, sure, but at least subconsiously, they're also trying to demonstrate their moral superiority, even if it is only to themselves. Feeling good about yourself is hardly a bad thing, but you still benefit from it.

All three of the above (and any other similar example) are great things to do, no doubt, and I'm not accusing people who carry them out of being selfish. I'm just trying to explain why the idea of there being no selfless acts might not be as ludacris as it sounds.

Originally Posted by Sheik

are selfless acts is this; They are not, because by doing them, you tend to improve your opinion about yourself, and you are trying to improve your status in the eyes of your god, and by not doing them, you would feel guilty.

No. Continuing the example: Getting off the computer for my sister doesn't make me feel like a better person. I don't know why I do it, actually, because she usually gets off so quickly afterwards and I actually regret getting off for her in the first place. I don't feel any guilt if I deny her a spot on the computer, either, which I've done before also. In no way does getting off benefit me. And I don't have a God to improve my status with.