Abortion

At the risk of being bombarded with the horrible one sentence posts as well as real serious discussion... what is everyone's position here?

I am firmly Pro-Life, mostly because I believe it just makes life worse and is very... well I think it's murder but technically it could be both ways.

I think it makes like worse because, for one, I recently read an article about a woman that had an abortion. This woman wasn't a Christian, didn't have many morals, and did not want the child. After the abortion... I think it was a few years, she was interviewed by World magazine, and she told them that she regretted her decision completely. She actually came out and said that she wished she hadn't had her abortion. This meant a lot to me because this was the same woman that in Roe vs. Wade, campaigned to make abortion legal. Also, it reduces personal responsibilty for teens. If a girl things she can just have an abortion if she gets pregnant, that gives her a reason to be promiscuous( aka: a slut) and that's horrible. It also lowers responsibility and manhood of the teen men, who think that if their girlfriend gets pregnant either they'll get a divorce or they'll just break up. This forces the girl into a position that is just horrible to put her in, and makes the guy basically the bad person.

I think it's murder simply because, it's a human baby. In my opinion the second a egg is fertilized, it becomes human, so to me it's just legalized murder.

What are your opinions on this? Do you have reasons behind it? If so what are they?

~HA

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Well, I for one am not for abortion or against it. I mean, if a teenager gets pregant and they don't want to have the baby they could just get an abortion. And by getting an abortion, they don't have to worry about trying to support and raise a child when they can not even support themselves.
I mean, it's the person's choice. If they choose to have an abortion then let them. Nothing should stop them, really.

I too agree with the fact that abortion is murder. An embryo is alive. It's a living human, and the killing of a human by another human is classified as murder.

However, there are a few cases in which I am left on the fence. For example, if a girl was raped by say, a family member (or by anyone, for that matter) and became pregnant. Although this doesn't change the fact that the being inside of her is alive and human, and that killing it would be murder, it's a bit different. I mean, there's a good change that it's not as if the girl went out and engaged in careless, unprotected sex knowing that if she got pregnant she could use abortion as a quick-fix. I know that this might not be true in all cases, but in the situation of rape I do see abortion as a partially justifiable possibility.

Regardless, there are programs to help teen or less fortunate mothers everywhere, so it's not as if abortion would be the only way out for a rape victim. I feel that in all cases, there are many other solutions other than abortion. Adoption, for example. I know that many women say that they wouldn't be able to live knowing that they gave their child away. My response to this is, would you rather have given your child have a loving family that wants them and is able to care for them, or would you rather have killed your child?

Even with the alternatives to abortion that are out there, I couldn't speak on this issue with pure realism unless I had actually been a teen mother, or carrier of an unplanned baby from a different cause. I imagine that when placed in these situations, girls feel that abortion is the easiest and safest way out. In all honesty, if I was to be told tomorrow that I was pregnant, I would panic. I'm sure all of these girls feel the same.

I also agree with the fact that abortion being there as an option lowers responsibility. Why abstain from sex for fear of becoming pregnant when you can just undo what you've done, and get rid of what you've created? I have a feeling that most teen pregnancies are caused by pure carelessness.

Still, as Pyro Kitten said, it should be the woman's choice. If she is mature enough to realize that she will be unable to support a child, why foirce her to watch as her son or daughter undergoes a painful childhood because she can't support them? But of course, this brings me back to abortion.

After condradicting myself numerous times in this little thing, I'm going to say that I am on the fence as far as agreeing or disagreeing with abortion.

Originally Posted by Sugaroxxx

I too agree with the fact that abortion is murder. An embryo is alive. It's a living human, and the killing of a human by another human is classified as murder.

However, there are a few cases in which I am left on the fence. For example, if a girl was raped by say, a family member (or by anyone, for that matter) and became pregnant. Although this doesn't change the fact that the being inside of her is alive and human, and that killing it would be murder, it's a bit different. I mean, there's a good change that it's not as if the girl went out and engaged in careless, unprotected sex knowing that if she got pregnant she could use abortion as a quick-fix. I know that this might not be true in all cases, but in the situation of rape I do see abortion as a partially justifiable possibility.

Regardless, there are programs to help teen or less fortunate mothers everywhere, so it's not as if abortion would be the only way out for a rape victim. I feel that in all cases, there are many other solutions other than abortion. Adoption, for example. I know that many women say that they wouldn't be able to live knowing that they gave their child away. My response to this is, would you rather have given your child have a loving family that wants them and is able to care for them, or would you rather have killed your child?

Even with the alternatives to abortion that are out there, I couldn't speak on this issue with pure realism unless I had actually been a teen mother, or carrier of an unplanned baby from a different cause. I imagine that when placed in these situations, girls feel that abortion is the easiest and safest way out. In all honesty, if I was to be told tomorrow that I was pregnant, I would panic. I'm sure all of these girls feel the same.

I also agree with the fact that abortion being there as an option lowers responsibility. Why abstain from sex for fear of becoming pregnant when you can just undo what you've done, and get rid of what you've created? I have a feeling that most teen pregnancies are caused by pure carelessness.

Still, as Pyro Kitten said, it should be the woman's choice. If she is mature enough to realize that she will be unable to support a child, why foirce her to watch as her son or daughter undergoes a painful childhood because she can't support them? But of course, this brings me back to abortion.

After condradicting myself numerous times in this little thing, I'm going to say that I am on the fence as far as agreeing or disagreeing with abortion.

First of all, have you heard of adoption services? Just because you have a child doesn't mean its completely yours, but it still came from you at least halfway. This is why I say that rape is still not an excuse for an abortion. If you are robbed, it does not change the fact that you lost your belongings, and if you are raped, it does not change the fact that you have a baby. If you can't support it give it up for adoption, there are hundreds of married couples/other couples ready to recieve a child but cannot make one themselves. Just because you did not want the child does not change the fact that it is a child, no more than wishing your one dollar bill suddenly became a million of them. I read somewhere that 4,000 embryos are killed every day in the US alone. That is an alarming number.

Originally Posted by Pyro Kitten

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Well, I for one am not for abortion or against it. [...]it's the person's choice. If they choose to have an abortion then let them. Nothing should stop them, really.

You're for it. Your standpoint maintains that it is permissible.

Originally Posted by Sugaroxxx

However, there are a few cases in which I am left on the fence. For example, if a girl was raped by say, a family member (or by anyone, for that matter) and became pregnant. Although this doesn't change the fact that the being inside of her is alive and human, and that killing it would be murder, it's a bit different. I mean, there's a good change that it's not as if the girl went out and engaged in careless, unprotected sex knowing that if she got pregnant she could use abortion as a quick-fix. I know that this might not be true in all cases, but in the situation of rape I do see abortion as a partially justifiable possibility.

Well, for one, a girl could get away with claiming to be raped in most states, Texas specifically (the policy is that anyone who has sex with an "underage" teenage girl does so without her legal consent). I don't think abortions are permissible even as a result of rape, because the abortion doesn't "fix" the rape, it "fixes" the pregnancy. The poor victim of the rape will still have been raped, and a child still will have died. Two wrongs don't make a right, as the saying goes.

I'm going to say that I am on the fence as far as agreeing or disagreeing with abortion.

"The greatest sin is apathy."

I think we need to be careful in this thread - I see a lot of assumptions, and I have a feeling I'm going to see a lot more.

Never refer to abortion as murder. Murder, by definition, is malicious. So calling it murder is circular reasoning, because your argument is assumed by the premises. I don't want to hear, "I think abortion is wrong because it's murder." You can argue that it's killing, but unless everyone agrees that it's malicious, you can't call it murder.

Also, if you say it's wrong because an embryo is a living human, you need to back that up.

Only back up your points with evidence that everyone considers valid. This goes back to calling it murder too.

Personally, I am pro-choice. But I think there are two issues - the moral issue and the legal issue.

Morally, I'm fine with abortion up to the first trimester. I consider the embryo and the early fetus to be part of the mother's body - it uses the mother's circulatory system and everything. It is by no means viable. To me it bears no resemblance to the adult, to the point where I would not consider it to be a human entity. If we kill a caterpillar, we're not killing a butterfly.

Legally, I'm more lenient. I would make it legal all the way up to the 2nd or even half way through the 3rd trimester. However, I think this should be strongly discouraged. The reason I think it should be legal is that criminalizing it won't stop people from having abortions. When I was in Paris, I went on a tour of the sewer system, and they explained that during the period in which abortion was illegal, they found discarded fetuses in the sewers. Criminalizing abortion will just make it go underground, and will make it much more dangerous.

Now, I don't think abortion is a good thing. I don't think abortion should be encouraged instead of safe sex or abstinence. But I think when the situation comes up, abortion is simply the best solution.

It's a living human, and the killing of a human by another human is classified as murder.

No, it is not considered murder. If you kill out of defense, it isn't murder. Murder is killing with malicious intent. I find it really annoying when people call it murder just to make it sound worse. Calling it different names doesn't make abortion any worse.

Regardless, there are programs to help teen or less fortunate mothers everywhere, so it's not as if abortion would be the only way out for a rape victim. I feel that in all cases, there are many other solutions other than abortion. Adoption, for example. I know that many women say that they wouldn't be able to live knowing that they gave their child away. My response to this is, would you rather have given your child have a loving family that wants them and is able to care for them, or would you rather have killed your child?

First, I think a lot of single mothers would be offended by your first statement. Life is NOT easy for a single mother, even with child support and a job.

Second, your last statement is not an argument you can make. "...would you rather have killed your child?" We have not established that abortion is killing, and we not established that a fetus is a child. This is another example of anti-abortionist word switching to make it look worse.

First of all, have you heard of adoption services? Just because you have a child doesn't mean its completely yours, but it still came from you at least halfway. This is why I say that rape is still not an excuse for an abortion.

I'm guessing you're not a girl. Neither am I, but I can tell you that giving birth is not as fun as a walk in the park. You're pushing to have rape victims bear yet another burden. Also, your comment assumes abortion is already immoral. You need to back that up before your comment has any merit.

If you are robbed, it does not change the fact that you lost your belongings, and if you are raped, it does not change the fact that you have a baby. If you can't support it give it up for adoption, there are hundreds of married couples/other couples ready to recieve a child but cannot make one themselves. Just because you did not want the child does not change the fact that it is a child, no more than wishing your one dollar bill suddenly became a million of them. I read somewhere that 4,000 embryos are killed every day in the US alone. That is an alarming number.

The idea behind abortion is that the woman DOESN'T have a baby. As I said, I don't consider an early fetus to be a baby. I don't agree that it is a child, and I would like to see your support for that claim. Don't just throw around a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

That number is not alarming to me. You're still assuming that an embryo is equal to an adult.

You're for it. Your standpoint maintains that it is permissible.

No. As I explained, there's a moral and legal issue. I don't support the use of marijuana, but I think the country is better off with it legalized. (Let's not turn this into a marijuana debate).
The point is that there's more than one aspect that we need to consider.

I spoke to soon about the murder thing... here is the definition of the noun, murder:

the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

So technically it is not murder, because A) it isn't unlawful, and B) it isn't usually malicious.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

First, I think a lot of single mothers would be offended by your first statement. Life is NOT easy for a single mother, even with child support and a job.

First of all, being a single father would be just as hard if not harder, especially since women get more office related jobs(usually higher paying) than men. And a man would have a very difficult time raising a girl alone, so don't say that women have it more difficult than men, because that just isn't so any more.

... have not established that abortion is killing...

Technically, the fetus has every body part to be a human being at four months. Usually they wait longer than that for an abortion. So it would be killing. Besides, what makes it less than human?

Also, Mad Hatter, what about the fact that almost 3 out of 5 women that have abortions say that they wish they hadn't? Maybe the abortion hurts them more than the birth would have.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

If we kill a caterpillar, we're not killing a butterfly.

No, but by killing the caterpillar you are stopping that caterpillar from becoming a butterfly. On that logic we might as well say, if you have a gun, and you shoot somebody, you are innocent because the bullet killed the victim.

The idea behind abortion is that the woman DOESN'T have a baby. As I said, I don't consider an early fetus to be a baby. I don't agree that it is a child, and I would like to see your support for that claim. Don't just throw around a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Once again, killing the catterpillar stops the butterfly from ever becoming. Thanks for the analogy.

I'm guessing you're not a girl. Neither am I, but I can tell you that giving birth is not as fun as a walk in the park. You're pushing to have rape victims bear yet another burden. Also, your comment assumes abortion is already immoral. You need to back that up before your comment has any merit.

I'm not guessing, I am assuming you aren't a baby. Now if you are sitting there fuming "awww thats just stupid a baby can't think for himself", then I would like to compare you to Adolf Hitler for a moment. He gassed 'retarded' people because they could not make the choice for themselves, and decided they didn't do anything for society. Babies don't do anything for society either, yet. And please, now I know you are thinking "GOD DON'T SAY BABY -- THEY ARE EMBRYOES". Get off that fact. Use your catterpillar analogy. Rape victims have beared a burden, why let them make a rash descision they will regret down the line? People make rash descisions, and marajuana is illegal, even though it makes the user feel better, for a period of time.

No, it is not considered murder. If you kill out of defense, it isn't murder. Murder is killing with malicious intent. I find it really annoying when people call it murder just to make it sound worse. Calling it different names doesn't make abortion any worse.

Calling African American people 'black' or the N word which I won't say makes something worse. Point: words do matter, they have merrit in themselves. The reason for calling it muder is to show how unagreeable you are to the topic. Arguing this point is idiodic in intself, I intend not to say another word about this particular matter. (regarding the word 'murder'.)

First, I think a lot of single mothers would be offended by your first statement. Life is NOT easy for a single mother, even with child support and a job.

Life isn't easy, for anyone.

Also, please stop saying that our 'statements need to be backed up'. This is the first page of the discussion.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

If we kill a caterpillar, we're not killing a butterfly.

No, we are killing a caterpillar that becomes a butterfly. If you're reasoning is to be believed, then killing children should be legal.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

No, it is not considered murder. If you kill out of defense, it isn't murder. Murder is killing with malicious intent. I find it really annoying when people call it murder just to make it sound worse. Calling it different names doesn't make abortion any worse.

Bessesen. (German for owned)

Notice how it says 'especially'?
Calling abortion murder is simply calling it what I consider to be a more honest title.
"I aborted my teammates." sounds about half as bad as "I murdered my teamates."
In saying that, I hope to prove the point that abortion is simply a light way of putting a dark thing.
Also, calling abortion different names does make it sound worse.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

I'm guessing you're not a girl. Neither am I, but I can tell you that giving birth is not as fun as a walk in the park. You're pushing to have rape victims bear yet another burden. Also, your comment assumes abortion is already immoral. You need to back that up before your comment has any merit.

Pain justifies muder? (I care not what you think, I will continue to call it murder)
I cannot see why defying the creation of a baby, and denying that child a life, ending a life before it begins, would not be immoral to you.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

First, I think a lot of single mothers would be offended by your first statement. Life is NOT easy for a single mother, even with child support and a job.

Atleast we aggree on one thing.

Originally Posted by MintyMan89

First of all, have you heard of adoption services? Just because you have a child doesn't mean its completely yours, but it still came from you at least halfway. This is why I say that rape is still not an excuse for an abortion. If you are robbed, it does not change the fact that you lost your belongings, and if you are raped, it does not change the fact that you have a baby. If you can't support it give it up for adoption, there are hundreds of married couples/other couples ready to recieve a child but cannot make one themselves. Just because you did not want the child does not change the fact that it is a child, no more than wishing your one dollar bill suddenly became a million of them. I read somewhere that 4,000 embryos are killed every day in the US alone. That is an alarming number.

"Regardless, there are programs to help teen or less fortunate mothers everywhere, so it's not as if abortion would be the only way out for a rape victim. I feel that in all cases, there are many other solutions other than abortion. Adoption, for example. I know that many women say that they wouldn't be able to live knowing that they gave their child away. My response to this is, would you rather have given your child have a loving family that wants them and is able to care for them, or would you rather have killed your child? "

Seeing as how that came directly from my post---yes, i have heard of adoption services.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Quote:
Regardless, there are programs to help teen or less fortunate mothers everywhere, so it's not as if abortion would be the only way out for a rape victim. I feel that in all cases, there are many other solutions other than abortion. Adoption, for example. I know that many women say that they wouldn't be able to live knowing that they gave their child away. My response to this is, would you rather have given your child have a loving family that wants them and is able to care for them, or would you rather have killed your child?


First, I think a lot of single mothers would be offended by your first statement. Life is NOT easy for a single mother, even with child support and a job.

Second, your last statement is not an argument you can make. "...would you rather have killed your child?" We have not established that abortion is killing, and we not established that a fetus is a child. This is another example of anti-abortionist word switching to make it look worse.

I never said that life was easy for a single mother. I simply stated that there are programs to help single mothers.

"We have not established..?" This is my opinion. My opinion is that, even if abortion is not murder, it is causing something to no longer be living. There ya go. Killing.

"Anti-abortionist word switching." Once again...just my opinion. And I don't consider myself anti-abortionsit...which brings me here...

Originally Posted by LionHarted

Quote:
I'm going to say that I am on the fence as far as agreeing or disagreeing with abortion.


"The greatest sin is apathy."

I don't believe that myself or anyone else should be pressured into making a decision on a topic as sensitive as this. I am not apathetic towards abortion. If I was apathetic towards it, I wouldn't have posted anything here. I wouldn't care. I am not apathetic; I am simply undecided. I have several opinions on both sides of this issue. Please don't insult me for being undecided on an issue that I do feel strongly about.

Originally Posted by Sugaroxxx

Seeing as how that came directly from my post---yes, i have heard of adoption services.

It did not come from your post, its just an obvious answer to a popular question.

Originally Posted by MintyMan89

It did not come from your post, its just an obvious answer to a popular question.

*sigh* Excuse me. You quoted my post. I quoted my post.

The paragraph on adoption came from my post.

Therefore, to answer you question, I have heard of adoption services

Originally Posted by Hostis of Angelus

First of all, being a single father would be just as hard if not harder, especially since women get more office related jobs(usually higher paying) than men. And a man would have a very difficult time raising a girl alone, so don't say that women have it more difficult than men, because that just isn't so any more.

Sorry, I should have said single parent. I was referring mainly to the rape situation, and I can't think of a way that a man would get raped and give birth

Technically, the fetus has every body part to be a human being at four months. Usually they wait longer than that for an abortion. So it would be killing. Besides, what makes it less than human?

Perhaps, but I only support it up to 3 months.

Also, Mad Hatter, what about the fact that almost 3 out of 5 women that have abortions say that they wish they hadn't? Maybe the abortion hurts them more than the birth would have.

Before I respond, I'm going to need a very good source for that.

No, but by killing the caterpillar you are stopping that caterpillar from becoming a butterfly. On that logic we might as well say, if you have a gun, and you shoot somebody, you are innocent because the bullet killed the victim.

By killing your sperm, you're preventing a kid from being born. In fact, any time you're not having sex, you're preventing a child from being born. Murderor!
You also did not follow my logic properly. My logic says that it's ok to kill a fetus because it's NOT a human entity.

I'm not guessing, I am assuming you aren't a baby. Now if you are sitting there fuming "awww thats just stupid a baby can't think for himself", then I would like to compare you to Adolf Hitler for a moment. He gassed 'retarded' people because they could not make the choice for themselves, and decided they didn't do anything for society. Babies don't do anything for society either, yet. And please, now I know you are thinking "GOD DON'T SAY BABY -- THEY ARE EMBRYOES". Get off that fact. Use your catterpillar analogy. Rape victims have beared a burden, why let them make a rash descision they will regret down the line? People make rash descisions, and marajuana is illegal, even though it makes the user feel better, for a period of time.

Not even a page, and I'm already compared to Hitler
I never said it's ok to kill them because they can't think for themselves. I'm saying it's ok to kill them because they're not living human entities.

Calling African American people 'black' or the N word which I won't say makes something worse. Point: words do matter, they have merrit in themselves. The reason for calling it muder is to show how unagreeable you are to the topic. Arguing this point is idiodic in intself, I intend not to say another word about this particular matter. (regarding the word 'murder'.)

I think you missed my point. Calling it murder makes it sound worse than it actually is. It's misleading, and it's circular logic. If it's so trivial, just stop calling it murder, and we'll all be happy...

Also, please stop saying that our 'statements need to be backed up'. This is the first page of the discussion.

Sorry, but I'm completely baffled by this. OK, let's take a break from backing up our points.


It was scientifically proven that fetuses are not living humans.


Ok, now since I'm not going to back that up, we'll treat it as fact. Seem fair to you? No? OK then, break's over. Back up your points.

No, we are killing a caterpillar that becomes a butterfly. If you're reasoning is to be believed, then killing children should be legal.

No. You're misinterpreting the analogy. The child is equivalent to the early butterfly, not the caterpillar.

Notice how it says 'especially'?
Calling abortion murder is simply calling it what I consider to be a more honest title.
"I aborted my teammates." sounds about half as bad as "I murdered my teamates."
In saying that, I hope to prove the point that abortion is simply a light way of putting a dark thing.
Also, calling abortion different names does make it sound worse.

Yes, I notice how it says "especially." That doesn't change anything. Let's see how your dictionary defines "especially."

Abortion is not way of putting a dark thing. I'm still waiting for you to show how it is.


Obviously calling abortion different names makes it sound worse. That was my point. It makes it sound worse than it actually is. Which is dishonest.

Pain justifies muder? (I care not what you think, I will continue to call it murder)
I cannot see why defying the creation of a baby, and denying that child a life, ending a life before it begins, would not be immoral to you.

Sorry, but if you don't care what I think, there's no point in talking to you. I try to respect you and be fair to you, and I expect that in return too. Trying to spite me by using foundations we haven't agreed on doesn't help your argument at all. I'm going to ignore your posts until you listen to me. I'm not doing this out of spite, hatred, or anger; I'm doing this because there's simply no point in talking to someone who won't listen.

I never said that life was easy for a single mother. I simply stated that there are programs to help single mothers.

I know. Sorry. I was trying to say that the support programs aren't sufficient.

"We have not established..?" This is my opinion. My opinion is that, even if abortion is not murder, it is causing something to no longer be living. There ya go. Killing.

You're welcome to have that opinion. But you can't use that as the basis for an argument.

Debating abortion tends not to be particularly productive.

I'm pro-choice. There's no standard measure as to what constitutes a human being. Fetuses happen to fall into a grey area, and likely will until the first dilemma is resolved. In the meantime abortions are occasionally a necessity, and rarely performed otherwise, so unnecessary stigmatization is just asinine. Which is why I'll leave the moral dilemma to the parents, and stay the heck out of it.

I really don't even think we have the technology yet to judge whether a fetus is a child or not, so why take the risk? (I say this because no one has ever proved "Thats not a baby, thats just a fetus.") I think perhaps instead of performing abortions the doctors could start clinics for helping victims and people who made bad descisions deal with what they did or with what happened to them.
Here are some facts regarding abortion.

It is estimated that 1,293,000 (2002, estimated) embryoes were killed in the USA in 2002 alone. Now if we put up the normal miscarriage rate (about 10%), we can see that roughly 1,163,700 babies were stopped from being born. The United States performs the most abortions per year, followed by Austrailia in 2003 with 84,460 (2003, estimated).

Now for a quote.
"As with most surgical procedures, the most common surgical abortion methods carry the risk of potentially serious complications. These risks include: a perforated uterus, perforated bowel or bladder, septic shock, sterility, and death. The risk of complications occurring can increase depending on how far the pregnancy has progressed, but may be counterbalanced by complications that would occur from carrying the pregnancy to term."
Keep in mind all these risks come from an unnessacary procedure. Giving birth to a baby these days is NOT life threatening.

"Sex-selective abortion
The advent of both ultrasound and amniocentesis has allowed parents to determine sex before birth. This has lead to the occurrence of sex-selective abortion or the targeted termination of a fetus based upon its gender.
It is suggested that sex-selective abortion might be partially responsible for the noticeable disparities between the birth rates of male and female children in some places. "

I brought in this quote to show that if it is not stopped here, it most probably will go further.

Feel free to read the rest of the article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Never refer to abortion as murder. Murder, by definition, is malicious. So calling it murder is circular reasoning, because your argument is assumed by the premises. I don't want to hear, "I think abortion is wrong because it's murder." You can argue that it's killing, but unless everyone agrees that it's malicious, you can't call it murder.

Determining that a developing fetus is not fit to live is malicious. Killing innocent children is ALWAYS malicious, since malice is defined as "The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another" (dictionary.com). There is never a just cause for killing a child. Never. Besides, murder is legally defined as premeditated manslaughter, not malicious manslaughter.

Also, if you say it's wrong because an embryo is a living human, you need to back that up.

Those who are for human embryonic stem cell research have done that for us. They propose that we take human stem cells from these embryos. We can only do so if they are, indeed, human.

Calling it murder makes it sound worse than it actually is.

Calling it murder is toning it down from what is actually is--the killing of a completely defenseless human organism. It is worse than murder, because it is never necessary, and does not directly secure anyone's safety.

If we kill a caterpillar, we're not killing a butterfly.

If you kill a butterfly, you are killing a caterpillar.

You're pushing to have rape victims bear yet another burden.

The burden is already theirs, whether anyone likes it or not. If an infant child was left on your doorstep, would you kill it because it could be a "burden?" Of course not--such a thing is preposterous.

I don't agree that it is a child, and I would like to see your support for that claim.

How does nothing that is, as you say "not human" become human? Can a dog become a human? Can a bacteria become a human? Can a bird become human? Of course not--again, such a thing is preposterous. If you can provide evidence as to how something that is "not human" can become human, then your argument that embryos and fetuses are "not human" may be legitimate. No one has as of yet provided such evidence, and so abortion cannot even be logically legitmate, since to say that a fetus is "not human" would require it.

Also, it wouldn't be called "abortion" if it didn't "abort" anything. Something cannot grow if it is not alive. Abortion terminates the life, growth, and development of the human fetus. One of the definitions is "to stop the progress of." This is very similar to one of the definitions for "kill" (and, curiously, of "murder")--"to put an end to."

Originally Posted by Hostius of Angelus

So technically it is not murder, because A) it isn't unlawful, and B) it isn't usually malicious.

If what we consider to be murder now were to become "lawful," then it wouldn't be murder anymore, according to that definition. One dictionary definition that supports a side of an argument is not the only definition that is legit.

Murder: "To kill brutally or inhumanely."

Suction Aspiration

This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.

Dilation and Curettage (D&C)

This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)

This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.

Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection)

Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)

Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion

This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.

Hysterotomy

Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.

Five steps to a partial birth abortion

1) Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.

2) The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.

3) The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head

4) The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.

5) The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.

LionHarted: Tell me how any of these procedures are humane--whether the fetuses are "human" or not is irrelevant, since we have laws protecting the humane killing of animals.

Source: http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

These are the most common abortion procedures, although poisoning is also often used. To say that the fetus is not alive is utterly incorrect, since if it is not alive, how does it die from poison. To say that it is not being killed is even more incorrect, since without being killed, it cannot be aborted. Any abortion method is inhumane; whether the fetus is human or not does not matter--by definition, it is murder. Anyone who supports abortion knowing how these procedures work utterly disgusts me. Anyone who would say that I am wrong in saying this ought to view the procedures being done firsthand, and then tell me if they think the same.

I agree totaly with Mad Hatter, and im suprised that so few do. But I would like to do a small post about rape.

If you get raped, you get pregnant, then do you want to make life to a part of a man who almost destroyed your life?

Originally Posted by Anarand

If you get raped, you get pregnant, then do you want to make life to a part of a man who almost destroyed your life?

The life is already made. Do you want to destroy a life that comes from a part of you?

If it's possible for a baby to not be aborted through adoption or whatever, I am for that. But other than that I believe it is the woman's choice. As far as being raped and becoming pregnant, that woman never asked for that violation and never asked for that baby. Abort away. Some will argue that a life is a life, but an unwilling raped woman didn't ask for that life. If I were a woman who were raped and had a child as a result, I would not want to spend everyday looking at that child that was the product of something so vile, evil, and dehumanizing.

People can throw a million reasons against abortion my way, but I don't really care. My thoughts are my thoughts as a woman's choice is her choice.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

The life is already made. Do you want to destroy a life that comes from a part of you?

Yes. Yes, I do. If I was a woman and I was raped, I would definitely want to get an abortion as soon as possible. Considering that I do not have the financial support or the ability to raise a child on my own, this would be the most logical course of action. To say that a raped woman cannot have an abortion because you consider it as killing is totally unfair to ones who suffer the most - the raped women.