Metaphysical Religions

Well, yesterday me and Bobslob had a very long and, to me, a very interesting conversation on how the Metaphysical concept of God came to be. We each had many arguements but we also had a main points. Mine was that early people used their imaginations and their experiences in life to create the metaphysical god. His main arguement was "How could they create the concept of a metaphysical being?" There were many points after that but I am pretty sure that was the jist of it. Some points (I am sure) will be repeated but, heck, why not?

I really wanted to post our conversation but Bob didn't want to. I understand why though. So I'm just throwing this topic out there. I'm pretty sure Bob will be watching this closely so if there is any anger or all out arguements in this thread he will delete them. Please keep it nice and formal. This place tends to get a little crazy at times.

Edit: My thousandth post! Enjoy!

I'm afraid I don't see why it's so hard to create a concept of a metaphysical being.

The belief in magic and spirits preceded those of Gods, so I guess I'll go into more detail about them.

But first, people create concepts of beings all the time. I mean the Raelians created the concept of aliens creating the human race through cloning. I think most people agree that this isn't the case, and that this concept of the alien coming to earth and creating us is a human construction. Also, many Gods contradict each other. Christians believe there is only one God. Somewhere, someone must have created the concept of a metaphysical God, even if a metaphysical God exists.

So first, magic. I find it strange that even people who don't believe in God often believe in some form of magic. I'm not talking rabbit in a hat magic, I'm talking sympathetic magic (like causes like), and contagious magic, where powers are transmitted through contact. We see contagious magic every day. When a giddy teenage girl shakes the hand of someone famous and never wants to wash her hand again, that's contagious magic. We assume that because some "enlightened" thing came in contact with something else, that something else now has "enlightened" qualities. I can't think of a good example of sympethetic magic in modern times right now...in old cultures, when groups went on excursions and the wives stayed home, the wives had to keep all the clutter leaned up against the walls, because it was thought that if they were placed in the middle of the room, there would be obstacles in the way of their husbands.

It's hard to say how these originated. I think part of it is just human nature. We try to find connections - that's how we think. But we have a tendency to abuse this, and often believe in connections where there were no connections at all. If one of those excursions failed, we assumed it had a cause, and with our bad logic, we attributed the wrong cause. And once magic gets started, it's all conjectures from there. James Frazer wrote about a lot of interesting cases in his book, "The Golden Bough."

Then there's anamism, and I have no idea how that started. Somehow people came up with the idea that all objects have a spiritual side. No gods, no demons, just spirits. Perhaps someone else can explain this better than I can.

So I guess we just took that a step further, and created the concept of gods. I think God originally served as a middle man for magic. People often tried to take control over magic, as we see with all that voodoo stuff and spells. I guess they figured somehow they could have more control over things, and when their magic didn't work, they probably tried to find another cause (and this cause would be insufficiently pleasing the gods). So people would, say, worship a god in hopes that they'd have a better harvest. They made sacrifices, and many of these are symbolic with very old myths. (The Golden Bough's main point was related to this).

Well, there's my opinion. I can try to give some documents to back it up, but most of it's just opinion.

And keep in mind - I'm writing under the assumption that there is no metaphysical realm.

I think I agree with the "how could people create a concept for a metaphysical being" (I had to look up metaphysical though ). The idea of a God existing and always existing is something no person could have made up, or so I believe. To me its like art, you can never make something more then what you know, anything I paint or sculpt I already know before I make it, It is already in my mind. Nothing that I do, is something that I came up with by myself. I cannot think up an imaginary animal without using aspects of living things I already know, like feathures, scales, gills, arms legs, claws, etc...

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

It's hard to say how these originated. I think part of it is just human nature. We try to find connections - that's how we think. But we have a tendency to abuse this, and often believe in connections where there were no connections at all.

I think connections are their, we are connected to God because we are Gods creation. But I do agree with you that people do abuse this and they also make false connections. Connections with God are important to uderstanding him, like God is our "Father", our "King", the "Shepherd", the "lamb", all these conections help with peoples understandings of God.

The whole idea of a metaphysical being had to start out with the very thing that we first depended on for warmth and light. I’m not talking about fire, but the sun. To early humans, the sun was a great ball of fire in the sky, a great force that we could not explain. This is why in some ancient beliefs a god often represented the sun and was much worshipped. Since nobody knew what the sun was made of, for many years we assumed it was a human or a great flare from a mystic being. This I believe is where we started to believe in the metaphysical; the sun. Yes, other forces of nature are just as impressive, but it was the sun that left a deep impression on early people.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Edit: My thousandth post! Enjoy!

Congrats! They go by so fast.

Christians believe there is only one God. Somewhere, someone must have created the concept of a metaphysical God, even if a metaphysical God exists.

The theistic view is that God plants the concept of God in man's heart. (Well, one theistic view... it is possible to believe and God and also think that man arrived at the concept of God on his own, I suppose. Although I would imagine the first is a more common Christian perception.) It would seem that no man creates the concept of God in that view.

Well, there's my opinion. I can try to give some documents to back it up, but most of it's just opinion.

This is why the subject is sort of fun... it really is such pure speculation.

I personally don't have time to be drawn into this debate, at least not now. I hope everyone has fun and keeps it clean in here.

-Rob

Yes, it all happened with the sun. Humans recognized that nature has a life force, a spirit. For they were much more conneted to it now than we were, so they sensed it. As humans grew away from Nature and started to rely on technology, we lost our connection with nature and muddled it, causing it to mutate into things such as Monotheistic religions.

There is magick still, we have just forgotten how to use it. How to ask nature and it's power to do things for us and to care for us as we once cared for it. Our utter disregard for the earth has caused the metaphysical realm to detereorate(sp?). The metaphysic is there in nature, humans just recognized it.

Erm, I think that the real cause is that it's difficult --if not almost impossible-- for most humans to conceive that there isn't really a higher purpose to live for, or a superior being that takes care of humans being and gives a purpose to their existence. So I think that gods were invented because of the need to give an explanation to things people couldn't explain, but mostly because of the need to believe that there's someone who is responsible for the creation of the unknown, and the holder of the truth who can understand the mysteries and make the universe work. This is an easy solution to the mankind's problem of having to deal alone with the unknown and having to discover everything without the aid of anyone else, so it is for evading the fact that humans aren't perfect and to avoid the the constant need to improve.

We see the world through our instincts and those instincts are more or less individual. Therefore every being conduct their own world through insincts that are individual to in particular them. It is just about the point of view. Worm? Bird? Human? Different worlds.

But something is odd. Each one of these worlds are conductions from the actual world. A world that is the real one that is exactly a being as it is, not like it shows itself to us. Not a conduction - it is the source of all of them. Therefore we actually know now that there exists this reality, but we know nothing about it for sure. We just know that this reality exists - nothing more. Therefore the world, as it is, is metaphysical - and the world, as it is for us, is physical.

So using an analogy from this: from a metaphysical substance it is impossible to find anything to say, where as from physical one it is always possible. We have our mathematics, physics, etc. conducted from our instincts how we have saw nature - books are filled of "saying" of our world, the physical being. But we should always realize that this world might not be the actual world, the metaphysical reality.

So again using analogy: we can create the concept of God only if and only if there exists a source for God - God itself. Though we can never say "what" exactly God is, simply because it is a metaphysical being. Sure, there are many religions and their own views of what God is, but they all are same as how science is constructed - through instincts, only this time through imagination.

However, this doesn't mean that now the existence of God how we see it is proven. No, not at all. We have only shown that there is a source for all of these Gods (through analogy). It might not be any "all being" (even though that is quite common to all religions when they are defining God), it might just be us humans, or nature. Only thing we now know, there is a god that might not be God.

Originally Posted by dr_osprey

To me its like art, you can never make something more then what you know, anything I paint or sculpt I already know before I make it, It is already in my mind. Nothing that I do, is something that I came up with by myself. I cannot think up an imaginary animal without using aspects of living things I already know, like feathures, scales, gills, arms legs, claws, etc...

Is it realy that impossible to create somthing totaly original. What about abstart art? There is art that when you look at it there is absolutly no resemblense to anything in nature.

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. And I think that there is something to what is known as the Opium Effect. I wise sage once said to me: "You know, people are just genuinely unhappy." This ties in with the need for a 'god' beyond because people can't fess up to the fact that they've done nothing with their lives.

I'm of a particular school of thought, though, that is ok with people believing in religion. I don't think that everyone needs to be 'awake' and open to creating new and fascinating philosophical ideas. For one, I think that this is not a view that is possible in the real world ( I'm a pragmatist ) Also, I don't think that everyone needs to take the intellectual High road.

I happen to be so intrigued with the subject that I'm an amateur theologian, myself. I really liked this sentiment:

Originally Posted by Marius

There is magick still, we have just forgotten how to use it. How to ask nature and it's power to do things for us and to care for us as we once cared for it. Our utter disregard for the earth has caused the metaphysical realm to detereorate(sp?). The metaphysic is there in nature, humans just recognized it.

My theology study stems from a desire to learn about what is mystic, lost, and forbidden. The prospect of magic is fascinating... or maybe I'm just a kid who won't grow up?

You know what? I find humans to be proud. Cocky. We think we know it all, or at least a lot of it. Everybody is like this, but to the extent depends on the person.

I find it ridiculous that man, as high as he thinks of himself, would create something like the idea of a "god" or a "higher power" than themselves.

Why would anyone do such a thing? The only reason I believe that anyone would believe in a God is that there is one. I believe God does instill the knowledge of His existence in everyone's hearts. How each person interprets that is different, but nonetheless it is still there. I believe that one God is... well... God. Not "Allah" or "Buddha" or anyone else. How would we know who it is? God wrote a book to us called the Bible. Some believe it is the Koran, and others different things. The only way we can know is to examine them carefully. I believe the only thing that stands up to the scrutiny is the Bible.

But um, I think I've strayed far enough from the topic.

Basically my idea is "why would anyone create a god when it takes power away from them and puts it elsewhere?" It's just not natural to do that.

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

You know what? I find humans to be proud. Cocky. We think we know it all, or at least a lot of it. Everybody is like this, but to the extent depends on the person.

I find it ridiculous that man, as high as he thinks of himself, would create something like the idea of a "god" or a "higher power" than themselves.

Why would anyone do such a thing? The only reason I believe that anyone would believe in a God is that there is one. I believe God does instill the knowledge of His existence in everyone's hearts. How each person interprets that is different, but nonetheless it is still there. I believe that one God is... well... God. Not "Allah" or "Buddha" or anyone else. How would we know who it is? God wrote a book to us called the Bible. Some believe it is the Koran, and others different things. The only way we can know is to examine them carefully. I believe the only thing that stands up to the scrutiny is the Bible.Have you read the other texts? Have you read the Bible? I don't think that it's quite as easy as you think it is.

But um, I think I've strayed far enough from the topic.

Basically my idea is "why would anyone create a god when it takes power away from them and puts it elsewhere?" It's just not natural to do that.

The fact that 95% of the worlds population believe in some form of god or another I think refutes your 'natural claim. I think that it seems to be very natural

I'm afraid I don't see why it's so hard to create a concept of a metaphysical being.

Well, of course, that's because you oversimplify the argument. You're focusing on one specific idea--not the concept in general. It's easy to come up with fictional ideas--it's another thing entirely to create an entire reality and actually make it fully and utterly believable, so believable that that reality still exists in today's culture.

As has been observed by many throughout history, cultures often base their beliefs about the world around them on things which they see and hear--things they perceive. The sun appeared to circle the earth, and so people thought that EVERYTHING centered around the earth; the horizon only extended so far, so people thought the world was flat. Of course, this has also been used to discover many ideas accepted and even proven today--such as the effect of gravity on objects, and the acceleration at which they fall, and so on.

How, then, do you explain the concept of metaphysics at all, since obviously it cannot be observed under normal circumstances? What could these people have possibly seen that gave them the idea of a god, or of the supernatural, and so on? Many have argued that natural phenomena such as lightning or earthquakes were unexplainable by the cultures of yesterday, so they naturally attributed it to the actions of a god. Where did they get the idea for this "god?" Many ancient cultures have explained such phenomena by personifying the event AS a god. This makes sense--you don't know what it is, so you subscribe some character to it. You can create a personality for something you can observe. People have attributed fire to anger, wind to impatience, and so on.

Where did the concept of the unseen, almighty God come from? What could possibly have been observed that human beings come up with this deity that no one can see, and what still inspired them to dictate commands given to us by them? Obviously lightning does not speak, and neither do fires or earthquakes. The Old Testament is full of direct commands given by God to His people, the Jews--things not possibly explainable through observation of the physical realm.

Furthermore, usually cultures tried to use logic to explain things they saw around them that they did not fully understand. People used to think that objects with a greater weight would accelerate downward at a faster rate when dropped from the same height--that idea makes sense, but is totally false. And, again, they saw the sun, planets, and stars spinning across the sky and decided that they must be moving around the earth, though we all know now it is the earth that moves. All of these things involve taking some familiar idea and attempting to apply it to the natural world. The momentum, or the power, if you will, of a moving object has always been associated with its speed. It is only natural that the first hypothesis of the behavior of falling bodies would be that the larger would fall faster according to the aforementioned idea. Additionally, when one sees birds flying in circles over his head, he does not automatically assume that he must be rotating about an axis so that they appear to be circling around him--if for no other reason he is standing still. What familiar idea could possibly exist that explains the attribution of natural phenomena to a god? And how is this in continuance with the pattern used to describe other phenomena?

Quite simply, it goes against normal human behavior to attribute the unexplained to sources outside this earth. Never have we seen evidence of cultures attributing gravity to a god. Never have we seen the fact that the stars appear to revolve around the earth attributed to a god (though we have seen their existence attributed to such a thing). How can you say that god is an invention of man?

The fact that 95% of the worlds population believe in some form of god or another I think refutes your 'natural claim. I think that it seems to be very natural

Haha, yes, you caught my sarcasm. Of course, nobody would believe in a God unless there was one, or else they wouldn't have any need for one.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

Quite simply, it goes against normal human behavior to attribute the unexplained to sources outside this earth. Never have we seen evidence of cultures attributing gravity to a god. Never have we seen the fact that the stars appear to revolve around the earth attributed to a god (though we have seen their existence attributed to such a thing). How can you say that god is an invention of man?

The greeks actually attributed the movement of the sun to the god Helios, who carried it around the outside of the earth an a chariot.

I'm sure that other religions less studied have come up with similar concepts.

Originally Posted by Hyleaus

The greeks actually attributed the movement of the sun to the god Helios, who carried it around the outside of the earth an a chariot.

That would be characterizing the sun's movements as the movements of a god, which would then be personifying the sun, a physical object, or, in this case, the charioteer who dragged it along, which would fall under what I mentioned in my third paragraph, describing the event as a god--indeed, this is why we refer to Helios as the "sun god."

I'm saying that the concept of a metaphysical God, one who transcends time and space, is not something within the human's imagination to grasp even today, and certainly is not within humankind's imagination to create. This is very different from saying: "Oh, the sun is being pulled across the sky by a chariot. How can this be? Must be a god's doing." This is looking at the entire world, even those things explainable by human means, and saying: "This is the handiwork of God. God created this, and this is how it works, and I understand how and why it works, and I know the purpose He had in mind when He created it."

Ooh, some interesting points.

So, can humans think of a metaphysical being without one existing? Sure. We can think of a hell of a lot of other things, and I've yet to see any valid arguments as to why we couldn't have thought of gods.

Why would anyone do such a thing? The only reason I believe that anyone would believe in a God is that there is one.

Okay, so . . . which one? The Greeks had a huge number of gods, as did the Romans. Do you think that the only reason they believed in them is that they, too, exist? If I were to believe in a massive dictionary-monster that lived in the sea and fired whales out of its eyes, would that have to exist, too? It wrote me a book, and it stands up to scrutiny twice over. No, really, it does. I can explain away every contradiction. Except that one. Oh, and that one. No, that's in part one. Read part two.

What I'm saying is that I find it pretty odd that you'd think that just because something is believed in, it has to exist.

I believe that one God is... well... God. Not "Allah" or "Buddha" or anyone else.

You realise that "Allah" is Arabic for "God"? Maybe not. It's the same god.

Basically my idea is "why would anyone create a god when it takes power away from them and puts it elsewhere?" It's just not natural to do that.

Hmm. Circular argument? They didn't make him up because it's not natural to do that! It's clearly not natural because . . . they didn't do it!

In any case, there are plenty of reasons why anyone would create a god. How about: to give their life meaning, to assure them that everything they do has some significance as part of some divine Plan.

To give them courage in battle? We'll surely win, guys... God is on our side!

To explain the unexplainable. Why are we here? God put us here! Why did that eclipse just happen like that? God did it!

To feel united with others who serve the same god?

What's wrong with those reasons? I reckon they stand up to scrutiny pretty well.

Okay, so . . . which one? The Greeks had a huge number of gods, as did the Romans. Do you think that the only reason they believed in them is that they, too, exist? If I were to believe in a massive dictionary-monster that lived in the sea and fired whales out of its eyes, would that have to exist, too? It wrote me a book, and it stands up to scrutiny twice over. No, really, it does. I can explain away every contradiction. Except that one. Oh, and that one. No, that's in part one. Read part two.

What I'm saying is that I find it pretty odd that you'd think that just because something is believed in, it has to exist.

The fact that billions and billions of people over the course of time have believed in God or a god or gods says something, doesn't it?

You realise that "Allah" is Arabic for "God"? Maybe not. It's the same god.

You realize that "sombrero" is Spanish for "hat?" I don't find that to be very compelling.

It's not the same God, at all. If you compared what we believe about God to what they believe about Allah, then you would realize that. Just one example: they believe Allah ("God") has a physical body. Christians don't. That automatically makes them totally different beings. One cannot be spirit and flesh at the same time.

Hmm. Circular argument? They didn't make him up because it's not natural to do that! It's clearly not natural because . . . they didn't do it!

No, I'm saying that the only reason the believe in one or "x" amount is because one exists.

How about: to give their life meaning, to assure them that everything they do has some significance as part of some divine Plan.

People try to give their lives meaning by all sorts of things. The fact that they turn to God because nothing else gives them that meaning is evidence of His existence.

To give them courage in battle? We'll surely win, guys... God is on our side!

And if you read the Old Testament, you will find times when the Israelites believed God was on their side, though He wasn't, and lost. In any case, fighting for a cause gives courage in battle.

To explain the unexplainable. Why are we here? God put us here! Why did that eclipse just happen like that? God did it!

You are right when you say it is unexplainable apart from God. There is simply no other way for this universe to have been brought about apart from an eternal first cause.

To feel united with others who serve the same god?

Why would others serve the same god if "Joe" just invented god "Iztranzud?"

I think I just answered your last question, as well.

Originally Posted by Moobl

Okay, so . . . which one? The Greeks had a huge number of gods, as did the Romans. Do you think that the only reason they believed in them is that they, too, exist?

Addressed already. The Greeks made natural phenomena into gods. Thunder--Zeus. Passion--Eros. Wine--Dionysus. And so on and so forth.

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

The fact that billions and billions of people over the course of time have believed in God or a god or gods says something, doesn't it?

I'm pretty sure that those billions stop at roughly 6~7.

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

You realize that "sombrero" is Spanish for "hat?" I don't find that to be very compelling.

Oh wow. Seeminly innocent translation, but then, we're dealing with the metaphysical. Not something with the concrete value of a hat. Also, you might want to check out a book called: Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things By George Lakoff. I'm pretty sure that you'll soon realize that translation is not as easy as you're making it sound.

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

It's not the same God, at all. If you compared what we believe about God to what they believe about Allah, then you would realize that. Just one example: they believe Allah ("God") has a physical body. Christians don't. That automatically makes them totally different beings. One cannot be spirit and flesh at the same time.

They claim that it's the same God.

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

No, I'm saying that the only reason the believe in one or "x" amount is because one exists.

So, I believe in Unicorns therefore one exists?

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

People try to give their lives meaning by all sorts of things. The fact that they turn to God because nothing else gives them that meaning is evidence of His existence.

... or they give up, or the convert to buddhism which has not god, or confuciousism which also has no god, or they stop looking for meaning or....

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

And if you read the Old Testament, you will find times when the Israelites believed God was on their side, though He wasn't, and lost. In any case, fighting for a cause gives courage in battle.

You mean to say that God cannot fight against his own people? I don't think that that's very astute.

Originally Posted by D3PyroGS

You are right when you say it is unexplainable apart from God. There is simply no other way for this universe to have been brought about apart from an eternal first cause.

Besides of course, the eternal first random event. Or, according to some, the eternal longevity of space not even having a beginning.
Vini vidi explicavi