UK political party poll

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

Those are national issues. Climate Change is a global issue.

But they are still issues that should be at the forefront of any government's mind. Sacrificing one's own people for the greater good is still a bad thing.

To be honest, we cannot predict anything until a government takes power. I did not expect riots in 2011 under a coalition government, but that's just life.

But one can use their proposed policies as a good indicator of their attitudes on issues.

You're from San Marino, right? Are you part of the EU? Well, being from the UK, the EU has done nothing but ♥♥♥♥ on us.

I'm from the UK, as I thought you might have gathered from my posts in this very thread.

As an island, we gather most of our food from the sea: fishing.

Uh, we actually import most of our food.

Because we are an island, we are entirely surrounded by water, and therefore can gather more fish than anyone.

Even when said fish stocks are almost empty due to overfishing over the course of several centuries?

Suddenly, we're part of the EU. The EU says "everybody should have the same fishing limitations and territories."
We are not entitled to half as much sea as we were before joining, and the fishing industry falls dramatically.

A fishing industry that was declining anyway due to dwindling fish stocks. yes, the fisheries policy could be better implemented, but I see no reason that policy taken to combat overfishing should be seen as a bad thing. You seem to be an environmentalist, so why are you against this?

Okay, we're not starving, thanks to imported food, but the EU has ruined fishermens' lives forever.

By providing them with a huge continental market? The UK produces a ton of shellfish, that are mainly sold overseas because no one here eats that stuff. Cockles, mussels, and the like are rarely seen on British menus, and the vast majority of the catch is exported. The EU is a huge bonus for exporters.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

To be honest, we cannot predict anything until a government takes power. I did not expect riots in 2011 under a coalition government, but that's just life.

I did.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

Those are national issues. Climate Change is a global issue.



To be honest, we cannot predict anything until a government takes power. I did not expect riots in 2011 under a coalition government, but that's just life.





You're from San Marino, right? Are you part of the EU? Well, being from the UK, the EU has done nothing but ♥♥♥♥ on us.

As an island, we gather most of our food from the sea: fishing. Because we are an island, we are entirely surrounded by water, and therefore can gather more fish than anyone. Suddenly, we're part of the EU. The EU says "everybody should have the same fishing limitations and territories." We are not entitled to half as much sea as we were before joining, and the fishing industry falls dramatically. Okay, we're not starving, thanks to imported food, but the EU has ruined fishermens' lives forever.

Wow that's the same thing they did to us with olive oil!
The EU forced us to cut olive trees and reduce the production of it at around 50% and lots of growers got jobless.
And if it wasn't that,the reduced production caused prices to sky rocket, which
a) is worse for the poor
b) had a negative effect on the competitiveness of the product,leading to less sales,less exports etc.

Is that their system,what they do ?


They decided that we too should be a "service" country.

But we import most of our food too,while Greece has the natural resources to produce more than enough food for all of its citizens.
The problem is that with the increased taxes the austerity measures included,local produced food have become much more expensive than imported.

Check this:

1 liter of Greek milk: 1.4 euros,1 liter of German milk: 0.9 euros
500 grams of Greek honey: 6 euros,500 grams of Romanian honey: 3 euros
1 kilo of Greek beef: 10.5 euros,1 kilo of French beef: 5 euros


They just made it so there are less jobs for local people since demand is less,while money generated here leave the country and get to the countries from which food is imported.

Sure,that's Free Market,and freedom is always good,but forcing the taxes to be so high that the end products are getting so ridiculously expensive nobody buys them,and thus leads to business foreclosure and thousands of people to unemployment,isn't a good thing either.
I mean if you think of it,raising the taxes so high that the industry gets devastated as its not profitable anymore 'cause nobody wants to buy so expensive products,is actually crazy and not even reasonable.

It would be more profitable to tax e.g. 10 businesses with 20% than 5 businesses with 40%.

But the EU doesn't understand this.All they say is "if you don't get enough annual GDP,raise your taxes",like if tax rates are the only variable that matters.



Sorry for the long post!

I like the ideology of the Labour Party. I like the socialist stand.

Labour hasn't had a socialist ideology for decades bro.

Originally Posted by Silver

Labour hasn't had a socialist ideology for decades bro.

I should have made the connection. It is closer to socialism. I am a centrist-socialist.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

But they are still issues that should be at the forefront of any government's mind. Sacrificing one's own people for the greater good is still a bad thing.

We're not sacrificing people on a burning cross or anything, we're just creating an agenda, putting certain things first and other things last. To be ho9nest, I think if the government left us alone, we could just about cope with the reccession, etc.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

But one can use their proposed policies as a good indicator of their attitudes on issues.

And I like people who care for the environment.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

I'm from the UK, as I thought you might have gathered from my posts in this very thread.

So why San Marino?

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Uh, we actually import most of our food.

I did say that.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Even when said fish stocks are almost empty due to overfishing over the course of several centuries?

A fishing industry that was declining anyway due to dwindling fish stocks. yes, the fisheries policy could be better implemented, but I see no reason that policy taken to combat overfishing should be seen as a bad thing. You seem to be an environmentalist, so why are you against this?

By providing them with a huge continental market? The UK produces a ton of shellfish, that are mainly sold overseas because no one here eats that stuff. Cockles, mussels, and the like are rarely seen on British menus, and the vast majority of the catch is exported. The EU is a huge bonus for exporters.

It's not that I support overfishing, that's a terrible thing. But as an island, we should be entitled to more fishing rights than, say, Germany, who has half the coastline we do.

To further my argument, look at other examples that Cor Sicarus has put forward.

Originally Posted by interestingdrug

We're a service economy nowadays so our primary sector would never continue being as strong as it was. Our fishing industry would be responsible for a very small part of our larger economic structure. The EU has created trade which is what we actually need.

That would be fine if it was fair trade, but it's not. We buy all their products, from fruit to fabrics, but they don't seem to buy ours. As a consequence, our traders suffer while theirs profit. Look at how supermarkets are encouraging us to buy British products.

Originally Posted by Alithinos

Wow that's the same thing they did to us with olive oil!
The EU forced us to cut olive trees and reduce the production of it at around 50% and lots of growers got jobless.
And if it wasn't that,the reduced production caused prices to sky rocket, which
a) is worse for the poor
b) had a negative effect on the competitiveness of the product,leading to less sales,less exports etc.

Is that their system,what they do ?


They decided that we too should be a "service" country.

Nah. We were primary, and then secondary, and now we're tertiary. The fact that we're a service sector economy has no bearing on the EU or anything, it's just the way we've advanced. We aren't, for example, particularly resource rich. Our manufacturing has been on the decline for decades. It's the way an economy changes.

Again, these are very odd and isolated incidents. Thatcher closed the mines. Farage would snip away at the public sector. Any anti-EU politician doesn't seem to be a better alternative in terms of creating jobs, and many bushinesses actually rely on EU trading to stay afloat.

But we import most of our food too,while Greece has the natural resources to produce more than enough food for all of its citizens.
The problem is that with the increased taxes the austerity measures included,local produced food have become much more expensive than imported.

I think we're probably far too big to provide for ourselves in that way. Plus there'd be no point in isolating ourselves when we can partake in a more fruitful global economy.

That would be fine if it was fair trade, but it's not. We buy all their products, from fruit to fabrics, but they don't seem to buy ours. As a consequence, our traders suffer while theirs profit. Look at how supermarkets are encouraging us to buy British products.

Well I don't know if that is entirely true. I believe that we have one of the biggest pharmaceutical industries in the world, and we're definitely not using all of that product ourselves. I was in Portugal last month and there were loads of British products. Particularly alcohol.

And again, we are a service economy. The top companies increasingly tend to be service based. It doesn't matter if our agricultural industry isn't clawing in the money of every hungry man of Europe. The entire Olympic games was partially about inspiring tourism. That's in the service sector. My brother accounts for people across the world. Service. I myself work in a service industry. Our health sector is huge. These are the things that matter.

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------

Labour hasn't been officially socialist since their first pm compromised their position, but there are socialist Labour mps nonetheless. Dennis Skinner, for example, is a staunch Socialist. Even Miliband claims to be a Socialist, but that's a bit less convincing given his rather meek and uncommitted opposition.

Originally Posted by Alithinos

1 liter of Greek milk: 1.4 euros,1 liter of German milk: 0.9 euros
500 grams of Greek honey: 6 euros,500 grams of Romanian honey: 3 euros
1 kilo of Greek beef: 10.5 euros,1 kilo of French beef: 5 euros

Don't you get it? This is EXACTLY why Greece and other countries are in such a bad way these days! Their prices are far too high for the economy to be competitive! Those other countries have gone through structural reforms to make production of these items far cheaper. All you are doing by posting these statistics is proving how bad the Greek economy is.
It has nothing to do with mythical "taxes". The who point of the EU is that there are NO protectionist measures between countries, and Greece and the other PIIGS are suffering not because other countries are squeezing them, but because their economy is uncompetitive! The fact that Greek products are so expensive is the fault of the Greek government and (to a lesser extent) the producers in the country. Supply side reforms are needed to reduce the power of the trade unions and to KEEP WAGES LOW in comparison to PRODUCTIVITY. Unions are a great thing, but once they start demanding wages that far exceed the productivity of their workers then your country will be on a deadly spiral downwards. Greek products are uncompetitive (and therefore the economy weak) because workers are unproductive and their wages are too high- meaning that the end product they produce is vastly more expensive than in other countries.

You have already posted statistics proving this. Greek products are more expensive. That is why they are in such a bad way. The average consumer always buys the cheaper product, and if the Greek government wants to fix the economy then it has to solve the relationship between wages and productivity. What that means is Greek workers need to produce more goods for less money- call it austerity if you want, it has to be done. And yes, it will be very painful for the country, but it has to happen if the Greek government wants to fix their economy.

There are no mythical taxes imposed on Greek goods that are doing this. None at all. This is a national problem that can only be solved by the Greek government and it's people.

They just made it so there are less jobs for local people since demand is less,while money generated here leave the country and get to the countries from which food is imported.

That is because Greek companies are unable to sell things at a cheaper price than imports. The Greek economy is uncompetitive.

Sure,that's Free Market,and freedom is always good,but forcing the taxes to be so high that the end products are getting so ridiculously expensive nobody buys them,and thus leads to business foreclosure and thousands of people to unemployment,isn't a good thing either.
I mean if you think of it,raising the taxes so high that the industry gets devastated as its not profitable anymore 'cause nobody wants to buy so expensive products,is actually crazy and not even reasonable.

as I said before, THIS ISN'T ABOUT TAXES. The Greek economy is in such a state because their economy is uncompetitive- wages are too high in comparison to productivity, meaning that Greek goods are far too expensive. When you put a country like Greece in a monetary union with a country like Germany (that has comparatively lower wages and a higher productivity), then a crisis like what we see now is inevitable.

It would be more profitable to tax e.g. 10 businesses with 20% than 5 businesses with 40%.

But the EU doesn't understand this.All they say is "if you don't get enough annual GDP,raise your taxes",like if tax rates are the only variable that matters.

No, the EU is telling Greece to restructure it's economy, and the massive bailouts were supposed to help do this.
Would you be able to tell me how much average wages have fallen in the past few years?


_____

We're not sacrificing people on a burning cross or anything, we're just creating an agenda, putting certain things first and other things last. To be ho9nest, I think if the government left us alone, we could just about cope with the reccession, etc.

Are you serious? Like, actually serious? The government has a DUTY to care for it's people, and leaving them to starve in grinding poverty is just an abhorrent policy. I honestly do not understand what your views are- in one post you outline left wing views, yet now you put forward views that only the most conservative politician would ever even contemplate!

And I like people who care for the environment.

And this takes precedence over caring for other people, does it?

It's not that I support overfishing, that's a terrible thing. But as an island, we should be entitled to more fishing rights than, say, Germany, who has half the coastline we do.

You do realise us and Germany do not even share the same sea? Germany mostly borders the Baltic sea. And the fishing quotas are not blanket for all nations, nations are given quotas fitting of their demand. Considering that fish from all over the continent can supplied anywhere on the continent within 24 hours, the consumer does not get much difference. The fishermen have a huge market to supply to, and fish stocks are protected from overfishing. Everyone wins.

To further my argument, look at other examples that Cor Sicarus has put forward.

What examples? He posted twice, each time regarding the labour party and Socialism.

That would be fine if it was fair trade, but it's not. We buy all their products, from fruit to fabrics, but they don't seem to buy ours. As a consequence, our traders suffer while theirs profit. Look at how supermarkets are encouraging us to buy British products.

Have you not heard of HUGE multinational conglomerates such as GlaxoSmithKline or BAE? Or even our banks? Insurance corporations?
We do not have much of a manufacturing or primary sector economy any more, but that has nothing to do with the EU. Our comparative advantage is in the service sector, or in very high tech manufacturing such as defence or pharmaceuticals. It is in these areas that the UK economy finds much of it's growth, because this is what we are good at doing. You won't find cancer treatment drugs on a supermarket shelf, nor would you find an aircraft carrier, and good look popping into your local branch for a multi million pound loan to build a new oil refinery. The British economy operates without much attention, but this does not mean the EU has taken everything over.

Look, you need to do some research before you make wild accusations about the EU. And I would recommend that you find a set of beliefs and stick with them, instead of swinging from one end of the scale to the other.

Don't you get it? This is EXACTLY why Greece and other countries are in such a bad way these days! Their prices are far too high for the economy to be competitive! Those other countries have gone through structural reforms to make production of these items far cheaper. All you are doing by posting these statistics is proving how bad the Greek economy is.
It has nothing to do with mythical "taxes".

Sure its other things too,but taxes are also a variable playing a role to this.
Some of the current tax rates in Greece are the highest in the EU.
It's not the only thing adding to the situation,but surely its an important factor.

The who point of the EU is that there are NO protectionist measures between countries, and Greece and the other PIIGS are suffering not because other countries are squeezing them, but because their economy is uncompetitive! The fact that Greek products are so expensive is the fault of the Greek government and (to a lesser extent) the producers in the country. Supply side reforms are needed to reduce the power of the trade unions and to KEEP WAGES LOW in comparison to PRODUCTIVITY. Unions are a great thing, but once they start demanding wages that far exceed the productivity of their workers then your country will be on a deadly spiral downwards.

The problem is that there is productivity. Products do get produced,they just aren't sold. You might think that prices are depended in the amount of products produced,but that's not the case,at least for Greece.
Actually lots of food specific products are wasted because best before day ends before anyone buys them.

Greek products are uncompetitive (and therefore the economy weak) because workers are unproductive and their wages are too high- meaning that the end product they produce is vastly more expensive than in other countries.

It's not as simple as that.
You say that wages are too high,but the average wage is just 600 euros,and the average Greek works 10 to 12 hours a day,6 days a week.
Honestly,600 euros aren't that much of a high wage,the buying capability of this money isn't that high. It's just enough for a month's apartment fee,electricity,water and telephone bill. There's barely any money left for food or new clothes or entertainment.
The reason people keep living in houses with food,is because of solidarity between the community. 30 year old people living with their parents..
Relatives with better wages aiding those with economic problems...
If the average wage is so low you can't even secure the very basic needs for
living like a roof above your head,food,electricity,water and a few clothes, you really can't say that wages should get even lower.
It would only make sense if the prices of goods where reduced too at the same time,but go tell that to the greedy businessman next corner,and he will send you to hell.
There is an unwritten law in the Greek market and that is: "Prices never drop". That's how Greek businessmen think. And that way of thinking is because in the past the Socialist governments hand-holded the market and decided everything,the government would decide how much a business should charge for a product,how much a business should pay a worker etc.
But Greece joined the free market unprepared. I'm not saying free market is a bad thing,but in order for it to work properly,businessmen need the right education.
And if the majority of what constitutes your industry are small family shops,mostly owned from 50+ year old people that for all their lives got used to have the hand-holding of the state,and now are too egoist and greedy to decide to drop their prices,that's what you get.
I've read on Wikipedia that usually when a non-free market country decides to join the free market model,there is usually a transitional period that could last up to 10 years max,in which the government slowly changes the rules and laws one by one,while running a campaign to inform and educate businessmen like small family business owners with seminars.. Well Greece never had a transitional period,it all changed in a single day,and there where no informative campaigns or anything.
Out politicians hasted to do everything the quickest they can,so we have the standards to join a variety of international organizations.
So a big part of the Greek problem actually is that a large chunk of Greek businessmen is still running their businesses like they did 20 or 30 years ago,like we are still in the socialist,partly controlled by the government market era. But the random average businessman like that won't believe me if I told him that he has to lower his prices,even for his own good.
He would just say to me "I'm XX years in the business,I know how to run a business,it's not my fault that my business isn't profitable,it's other's fault".
He would have to listen to someone like the government to get convinced that he MUST lower his prices.
But the government doesn't give a s***t,the parliamentarians are nothing but lazy slackers that are too bored to think what they should do for the country themselves,and just wait for the EU to tell them what to do,and just sit until the EU says something,so they can write their signatures and say OK.

You have already posted statistics proving this. Greek products are more expensive. That is why they are in such a bad way. The average consumer always buys the cheaper product, and if the Greek government wants to fix the economy then it has to solve the relationship between wages and productivity. What that means is Greek workers need to produce more goods for less money- call it austerity if you want, it has to be done. And yes, it will be very painful for the country, but it has to happen if the Greek government wants to fix their economy.

The workers are already working enough and had their wages lowered. 10 to 12 hours a day for 600 euros is already on the extreme.
It's the business owners the next who should make a move,and lower their prices. Bad thing is they are too stubborn and greedy to do that,and the government doesn't do anything about that,partly because they really don't care about it,and partly because telling businessmen to lower their prices would be considered anti-free market move.

There are no mythical taxes imposed on Greek goods that are doing this. None at all. This is a national problem that can only be solved by the Greek government and it's people.

Mythical no,but you have to agree that 25% VAT on absolutely EVERYTHING is too much.

That is because Greek companies are unable to sell things at a cheaper price than imports. The Greek economy is uncompetitive.

It truly is.Very uncompetitive .

as I said before, THIS ISN'T ABOUT TAXES. The Greek economy is in such a state because their economy is uncompetitive- wages are too high in comparison to productivity, meaning that Greek goods are far too expensive. When you put a country like Greece in a monetary union with a country like Germany (that has comparatively lower wages and a higher productivity), then a crisis like what we see now is inevitable.

Taxes are not the primary factor,but do worsen the situation,because they reduce the buying capability of money,causing people to buy less stuff,leading business to have less costumers and thus less profits.

No, the EU is telling Greece to restructure it's economy, and the massive bailouts were supposed to help do this.

Actually the huge amounts of bailout money Greece received didn't helped at that department. All this money where spent so Greece can pay back some of its old debt and replace it with new,because the debt from the old loans had very high interest rates,and the newer loans have lower interest rates.The only thing that changed with the IMF and EU loans Greece took,is that now Greece's debt has lower interest rates.
Greece takes new loans to pay back its old loans,so those who loaned the money doesn't complain that Greece doesn't pay back,with the hope that Greece's ratings on Standards&Poors and other organizations like that will get better,so new investors will come in.
But honestly,investors doesn't come to Greece because tax rates are too high. For 20+ years Coca Cola had a factory in Greece where it produced not only for Greece,but for the South Europe in general,the factory was producing enough to satisfy the needs of the Balkans too.
When the first austerity measures pack was agreed to be applied to Greece, Coca Cola left and now they have their factory in Bulgaria.
The austerity measures scare investors away,and Merkel is too blind to see that.

Would you be able to tell me how much average wages have fallen in the past few years?

Average wage dropped from 800 euros to 600 euros. This is a 25% reduction.
At the same time the annual income tax raised from 25% to 30%,and VAT raised from 20% to 25%
Special tax for alcoholic beverages raised from 15% to 30%
Special tax for tobacco products went from 45% to 50%
Oil tax was also raised,I don't remember the exact percentage rate, but the average gasoline price of 1.2 to 1.3 euros per liter,now has jumped to 1.7 to 1.9 euros per liter.
No drops where applied to good's prices at all,the opposite happened actually and goods got even more expensive each time a tax rate was raised up.


I think it's like we are in a maze and can't get out!

Sure its other things too,but taxes are also a variable playing a role to this.
Some of the current tax rates in Greece are the highest in the EU.
It's not the only thing adding to the situation,but surely its an important factor.

High tax rates are irrelevant if the people are dodging them and covering up their secret backyard pools when the government drives by.

The problem is that there is productivity. Products do get produced,they just aren't sold. You might think that prices are depended in the amount of products produced,but that's not the case,at least for Greece.
Actually lots of food specific products are wasted because best before day ends before anyone buys them.

They're not sold because they're too expensive for people to want to buy, and they're too expensive since cost of production is very high, a cost in which high wages and low productivity is a factor. Food prices have been inflating over the past few years, the demand is clearly there.

as I said before, THIS ISN'T ABOUT TAXES. The Greek economy is in such a state because their economy is uncompetitive- wages are too high in comparison to productivity, meaning that Greek goods are far too expensive. When you put a country like Greece in a monetary union with a country like Germany (that has comparatively lower wages and a higher productivity), then a crisis like what we see now is inevitable.

This is true, but it's not the only factor.

Part of the issue with the Euro is that it is and will always be better for the rich countries and bad for the poor ones. Greece sharing a currency with Germany makes it harder for Greece to thrive because they have an overvalued currency. Germany sharing with Greece makes it easier for the Germans because their currency is undervalued. It's similar to how China's cheap currency gives their economy a boost.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

The dichotomy that Europe must choose between austerity-for-all or steroid-stimulus is absurd, and more than absurd, it's dangerous.

Europe cannot choose to simply slash spending and hike taxes and hope it will solve the issue, it won't. Such moves will only contribute to shattering the European economy. Blind austerity will not work.

But neither will simply borrowing more and hoping that the sheets will somehow balance when the economy gets back to a boom cycle. That's just sweet medicine that gets less effective every time it's used. The government must be concerned with balancing their budget.

But not to the case of economic suicide. It should be obvious that Europe needs a combination of stimulus and targeted austerity (as well as restructuring of market regulations) to restore investor confidence that European governments won't allow the economy to fall and that they won't allow further defaults.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Are you serious? Like, actually serious? The government has a DUTY to care for it's people, and leaving them to starve in grinding poverty is just an abhorrent policy. I honestly do not understand what your views are- in one post you outline left wing views, yet now you put forward views that only the most conservative politician would ever even contemplate!

No, the government certainly does not have a duty to care for its people. Look at 1920s America. Nazi Germany. None of those governments cared about their people.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that the point of a government is to run its country, not to care for the people!

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

And this takes precedence over caring for other people, does it?

Yes. Is that such a bad thing? The human race is disgusting, and some people have simply created their own mess that they expect their government to sort out.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

You do realise us and Germany do not even share the same sea? Germany mostly borders the Baltic sea. And the fishing quotas are not blanket for all nations, nations are given quotas fitting of their demand. Considering that fish from all over the continent can supplied anywhere on the continent within 24 hours, the consumer does not get much difference. The fishermen have a huge market to supply to, and fish stocks are protected from overfishing. Everyone wins.

You're right, everyone wins...except us! We're an island, we should be automatically entitled to more fishing space! Can't you imagine how things were before we entered the EU? British fishermen fished, brought home food and fed families. Did the EU really need to intervene at all?

Why are you talking about Germany and the Baltic Sea? I used it as an example. Germany is a member of the EU. Germany has fishing boundaries like the UK. Not once did I say the UK and Germany share the same sea.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

What examples? He posted twice, each time regarding the labour party and Socialism.

I meant Alithinos, calm the ♥♥♥♥ down.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Have you not heard of HUGE multinational conglomerates such as GlaxoSmithKline or BAE? Or even our banks? Insurance corporations?
We do not have much of a manufacturing or primary sector economy any more, but that has nothing to do with the EU. Our comparative advantage is in the service sector, or in very high tech manufacturing such as defence or pharmaceuticals. It is in these areas that the UK economy finds much of it's growth, because this is what we are good at doing. You won't find cancer treatment drugs on a supermarket shelf, nor would you find an aircraft carrier, and good look popping into your local branch for a multi million pound loan to build a new oil refinery. The British economy operates without much attention, but this does not mean the EU has taken everything over.

I didn't know anybody cared about these companies abroad...

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Look, you need to do some research before you make wild accusations about the EU. And I would recommend that you find a set of beliefs and stick with them, instead of swinging from one end of the scale to the other.

What, so you think I pulled the fishing example out my arse?

No, the government certainly does not have a duty to care for its people. Look at 1920s America. Nazi Germany. None of those governments cared about their people.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that the point of a government is to run its country, not to care for the people!

Yes. Is that such a bad thing? The human race is disgusting, and some people have simply created their own mess that they expect their government to sort out.

How can you run a country without caring for the people? The people make the country. You can't achieve anything with the country if you don't care for its people. A country is more than a mere area within its borders; its structure is based on the individuals that make it up. Ensuring that people are literate, for example, is greatly significant for a country to run smoothly in the long run.

Further, the government is not some sort of mythical magical abstract thing; it is actually made of people as well; political leaders, if you wish. Ideally, the government exists to ensure stability, order and liberty for the individuals, and its authority comes from the people themselves: in other words, these leaders are not above the laws either, and they are responsible for the individuals of the society. If they fail to do their duties (protecting the individuals they're responsible for), then they should and shall lose power.

You speak of the government and the people as if they were absolutely different, but they are not. Don't care for the people and your government will gradually weaken as well.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

No, the government certainly does not have a duty to care for its people. Look at 1920s America. Nazi Germany. None of those governments cared about their people.

When a government does not care for it's people, it will end up like 1920's America or Nazi Germany. I do not understand what your point is here, you say a government should not care for the people, then post examples of the terrible situations that can arise if it doesn't You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that the point of a government is to run its country, not to care for the people!

As Nesi said, the people ARE the country. If the government wants to run the country well, it needs to ensure that the people are well cared for.

Yes. Is that such a bad thing? The human race is disgusting, and some people have simply created their own mess that they expect their government to sort out.

I honestly hope you never achieve any position of power. What you are proposing is simply dangerous.
Yes, this is a bad thing. Once a government starts to regard the people as the ones in the wrong, you end up with a situation as in the many fascist dictatorships of Europe during the mid 20th century. People should not be left to die just because you follow a political line that they do not agree with.

You're right, everyone wins...except us! We're an island, we should be automatically entitled to more fishing space! Can't you imagine how things were before we entered the EU? British fishermen fished, brought home food and fed families. Did the EU really need to intervene at all?
Why are you talking about Germany and the Baltic Sea? I used it as an example. Germany is a member of the EU. Germany has fishing boundaries like the UK. Not once did I say the UK and Germany share the same sea.

What happened to equally sharing out a dwindling resource? I would have thought, as an environmentalist, you would support resources being shared out equally as opposed to the regular capitalist system of doing so.

I meant Alithinos, calm the ♥♥♥♥ down.

Okay. And not once did I hint I was not calm, you might want to stop jumping to conclusions like that.

I didn't know anybody cared about these companies abroad...

This just proves you do need to do a lot more research on this topic.

What, so you think I pulled the fishing example out my arse?

Considering your stance on the topic is very odd, since you claimed to be an environmentalist yet oppose measures to preserve wildlife (as well as not caring about human life at all), you are doing a lot more than "pulling things out of your arse".

Your views are, quite frankly, extreme. What makes your views even more alarming is that you do not sit on any one point of view; you are both an extreme environmentalist, an extreme capitalist, and an extreme libertarian. How on earth you can hold such an extreme set of (very differing) views is beyond me.

you are both an extreme environmentalist, an extreme capitalist, and an extreme libertarian. How on earth you can hold such an extreme set of (very differing) views is beyond me.

Not necessarily. To be all three of those things only requires that someone advocate for little more than a night-watchman state, with as free a market as possible as can exist in a state with a government, and a conscientious environmental approach dictated by market forces as the people prefer to purchase environmentally friendly products.

Of course, all attempts to achieve something of that effect are likely to result in a Crony Capitalist Corporatocracy with little or no movement towards environmental sustainability.

But I digress.

Originally Posted by Nesi

How can you run a country without caring for the people? The people make the country. You can't achieve anything with the country if you don't care for its people. A country is more than a mere area within its borders; its structure is based on the individuals that make it up. Ensuring that people are literate, for example, is greatly significant for a country to run smoothly in the long run.

Further, the government is not some sort of mythical magical abstract thing; it is actually made of people as well; political leaders, if you wish. Ideally, the government exists to ensure stability, order and liberty for the individuals, and its authority comes from the people themselves: in other words, these leaders are not above the laws either, and they are responsible for the individuals of the society. If they fail to do their duties (protecting the individuals they're responsible for), then they should and shall lose power.

You speak of the government and the people as if they were absolutely different, but they are not. Don't care for the people and your government will gradually weaken as well.

And this is why these particular governments failed! (Actually, Nazi Germany was pretty powerful for 5 years)

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

When a government does not care for it's people, it will end up like 1920's America or Nazi Germany. I do not understand what your point is here, you say a government should not care for the people, then post examples of the terrible situations that can arise if it doesn't You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

As stated above, I wasn't promoting them. I was defining the word 'government'.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

I honestly hope you never achieve any position of power. What you are proposing is simply dangerous.
Yes, this is a bad thing. Once a government starts to regard the people as the ones in the wrong, you end up with a situation as in the many fascist dictatorships of Europe during the mid 20th century. People should not be left to die just because you follow a political line that they do not agree with.

You're taking this way too seriously. This is a poll thread on a Zelda fan base. I'm not making a manifesto for myself. Who said people should be left to die? People can look after themselves you know!

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

This just proves you do need to do a lot more research on this topic.

That I do. A-level Politics, here I come!

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Your views are, quite frankly, extreme. What makes your views even more alarming is that you do not sit on any one point of view; you are both an extreme environmentalist, an extreme capitalist, and an extreme libertarian. How on earth you can hold such an extreme set of (very differing) views is beyond me.

Maybe it's because I'm a 16 year old boy who does not have the right to vote, so I can basically say what I want. I've outlined my main views below, those are my real aims if I get into power.

You're making a massive digression from the main point of focus. Do you still support the Green Party AND UKIP despite their complete contradicting elements? Any I haven't heard any excuse for leaving the EU apart from an extremely odd fishing scenario which doesn't make sense anyway.

I'd also like to know who would support a Boris Johnson-lead Tory party. I said I'd never vote Tory, but after seeing him dancing to The Spice Girls yesterday I don't even care anymore. Get him in.

Originally Posted by interestingdrug

You're making a massive digression from the main point of focus. Do you still support the Green Party AND UKIP despite their complete contradicting elements? Any I haven't heard any excuse for leaving the EU apart from an extremely odd fishing scenario which doesn't make sense anyway.

The EU and the environment are in no way related. In my ideal world, the UK was be an isolationalist state that cares for both it's people and it's environment, without other interfering power-hungry countries. America coped well enough for a while, why can't we?

Originally Posted by interestingdrug

I'd also like to know who would support a Boris Johnson-lead Tory party. I said I'd never vote Tory, but after seeing him dancing to The Spice Girls yesterday I don't even care anymore. Get him in.

OMG YES PLEASE!

Yes, but I already explained that there's no such thing as a single-issue party because decisions need to be made in all areas. I also explained why the Green Party shouldn't be the default vote for the environmentalist. Read the manifestos, dude.

The world has also changed and we'd be pathetic if we were isolationist. The US were and now they're not. Who's left to emulate? North Korea?

I think that you see politics as too black-and-white whereas it's a dozen shades of grey. You're going over realistic implications of things and veering too quickly into speculation.

Glad you agree, though.

Originally Posted by interestingdrug

I think that you see politics as too black-and-white whereas it's a dozen shades of grey. You're going over realistic implications of things and veering too quickly into speculation.

a dozen shades of grey

a dozen shades of grey

Sorry, I got a bit distracted there.

Anyway, I understand politics isn't that simple. I'm just trying to outline what I would like our country to be if it were possible and un-problematic.