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  #61 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-24-2012, 06:44 PM
Jaime Lannister Sweden Jaime Lannister is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
I agree with you in principle, and I really don't want to insult anyone here, but it's a lot harder to be that noble when someone you love is the victim in question.

Just sayin' that we shouldn't be too quick to judge someone who is honest enough to admit that their first reaction to the murder of a loved one would be to harm the killer.
I'm not going to judge anyone who wants to see the person who hurt their loved ones be put through torture and eventually killed. I'm fairly certain it would be my first thought, and I may play out some scenarios in my head.

But to actually go through with doing it? The idea that someone would actually want to do it (and probably enjoy it) is a bit frightening, to say the least.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:47 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Not challenging you here, but what cases are you talking about?
Off the top of my head I've got nothing.

That said, over 50% of wrongful convictions have an innocent person confessing, and something like 80% of them were fingered by eyewitnesses and/or informants. So that implies that something like 40% of wrongful convictions meet both those criteria.
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  #63 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-24-2012, 06:50 PM
Link the Zora Link the Zora is a male United States Link the Zora is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
It might be hard, and no, I doubt I would be able to resist it - but it still doesn't make it right, nor does it make it excusable.
I agree. If someone did that to my family, my first thought would be how to administer the worst possible pain on the person while keeping them alive the whole way through.

But then I'd have to ask myself: Would my loved ones want that? Would they want me to spend the rest of my life consumed in hatred and revenge? Would they want me to actually go out and hurt this other man? Would it be worth turning my back on every single thing I've ever stood for, everything I ever believed in just to hear one sick bastard scream his lungs out for a few hours?

Again, I know where MissNanci is coming from, and I am just as disgusted with it as she is. I know exactly how she feels, because I felt the same once, when I was a younger man.

I'm with Gamzee. It's perfectly okay to imagine yourself doing unspeakable things to bastards such as this guy. However, if you actually go out to try and do it yourself? You have crossed the line.
Last Edited by Link the Zora; 07-24-2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #64 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-24-2012, 06:52 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Actually-proven wrongful convictions, or successfully overturned convictions? Because a successful appeal doesn't ALWAYS mean that the person was innocent.

Damn I feel so conservative asking this.
Actually proven-wrong, often with DNA evidence.


Edit: Google up the Innocence Project for more info on that sort of thing.
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Last Edited by John; 07-24-2012 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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  #65 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-24-2012, 06:55 PM
Astarael Australia Astarael is offline

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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

It's been said before, but it's worth noting again: countries with the death penalty do not have proportionally lower crime rates, so it likely does very little as a deterrent. Indeed, one the countries with lowest crime rates is Norway - which also happens to have a much greater focus on rehabilitation than on punishment. The recidivism rate for criminals in Norway is only 20%, compared with 67% in the United States, and the murder rate is even lower (0.6 per 100,00 people, compared to 8 per 100,000).

Focusing on understanding criminal motivations and mindsets, and trying to correct them, does far more good in the long run than inflicting the most brutal punishment possible on prisoners (and this is especially true in the case of criminals with severe mental illnesses).
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  #66 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 01:05 PM
R3B3LCAUSE R3B3LCAUSE is a male United States R3B3LCAUSE is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

Anyone capable of plotting something like that deserves to die. They are a menace to society and have forfeited their right to life. If they are crazy then too bad, twelve deaths is to much to forgive
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  #67 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 01:50 PM
Valhelm Valhelm is a male United States Valhelm is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Anyone capable of plotting something like that deserves to die. They are a menace to society and have forfeited their right to life. If they are crazy then too bad, twelve deaths is to much to forgive
Legally, somebody is "crazy" if they can't distinguish right from wrong. Therefore, a person ruled insane can not be held responsible for their crimes. If James Holmes is ruled insane (which will not necessarily happen), he should be treated and rehabilitated, not punished.

But mental health and sanity aren't the same thing at all. Holmes almost certainly has some sort of condition, but it's very possible that the court will rule him sane and punish him as so.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:18 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

MissNanci: If jail is so lovely, why don't you get yourself arrested and live a life of luxury? If they are, in fact, worse than life outside of jail, then why are you opposed to punishment for such criminals?
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  #69 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 07:32 PM
Valhelm Valhelm is a male United States Valhelm is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Did I say jail was lovely? No. I said they get meals in jail, a place to sleep in jail, clothes to wear, and games outside with their prison buddies. All of this is true. Someone who has killed 12 people does not deserve this. He deserves a cold cell with no bed, no toilet, barely any food, no social time, and someone to knock his teeth out.
So you believe that violence should be met with more violence?
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  #70 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 07:33 PM
pawptart pawptart is a male United States pawptart is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

You're not looking at the bigger picture.

Is it worse that we let this guy and people like him to live--to study, understand, and attempt to reform?

--OR--

Is it worse to potentially forfeit hundreds of thousands of future lives because we don't understand the root cause of criminal behavior based on "justice"?

Also perpetuating a hypocritical cycle of violence akin to Dark Ages "eye for an eye" mentality, although you for whatever reason don't care for that.
Last Edited by pawptart; 07-25-2012 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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  #71 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 07:35 PM
Lysis Antarctica Lysis is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

no. There's a HUGE difference between justice and bloodthirsty retribution and you don't seem to understand that they are not the same thing. Causing suffering of any sort to any person is wrong. Justice exists to make society a better place by reducing suffering. Bloodthirsty retribution just causes more suffering.

nobody deserves to suffer.
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  #72 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Link the Zora Link the Zora is a male United States Link the Zora is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

Okay, suppose we went all Wild West on his ass. We tarred and feathered him, beat him with a bullwhip, then dragged him into the town square and hung him.

What, exactly, would that do? Is this justice?

They actually did stuff like that during the days of the Wild West, and that probably did little to nothing to deter crime. People in the Dark Ages had dozens of delightful ways to torture their prisoners, but I doubt that stopped crime in their area. All that does is scare the living ❤❤❤❤ out of people who aren't going to commit crimes anyway! A criminal won't care. If they want to commit a crime, they'll commit a crime.

True justice would be to simply put him behind bars while finding out the root cause of the criminal mindset, the atmosphere in which the criminal grew up in, and ways of rehabilitation. Only then can we reach true civilized society.
Last Edited by Link the Zora; 07-25-2012 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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  #73 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 08:04 PM
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by MissNanci View Post
Did I say jail was lovely? No.
So you agree that jail is a punishment. Alright, so what's the problem with it?
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  #74 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 08:05 PM
Link the Zora Link the Zora is a male United States Link the Zora is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

Are you concerned that it's not doing anything to rehabilitate the guilty? That all it does is just push them under the rug, and we just ignore them? That they somehow got off too easy despite their horrific crime?
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:08 PM
Antigone Antigone is a female United States Antigone is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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So let's say there is this guy. He tortured and raped many girls and women. He is a serial killer. He took dozens of lives and didn't care. He also bought dozens of poor puppies and kitties and kept them in his basement and tortured and starved them.

Do you seriously think if a person did that^^ he does not deserve to suffer? Because I say he deserves the worst pain possible . Tear his limbs off one by one. Everyone on ZU is clearly a softie and too sympathetic to murderers. So I will stop talking.
No one is being sympathetic. I am and will always be disgusted by such violent acts, nor would I ever feel "sorry" for the person who committed them.

But that does not change the fact that they are human beings, and by inflicting pain and suffering on someone who has inflicted pain and suffering, would be the utmost act of hypocrisy and injustice.

We are simply trying to tell you that the methods you propose would be POINTLESS, and would only cause more problems than they would solve. This is not an opinion, by the way, this is an observable fact.

Torture does not do anything. NOTHING. Zip. Nada. NOTHING. No amount of your Dark Age vigilante spewing is going to change that. It does not teach criminals, it does not teach us ABOUT criminals, nor does it prevent crimes from happening. It's pointless.

I seriously worry that there are actually people that think like you do living in the 21st century, I really, really do.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:13 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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It's not enough punishment. They are still alive and treated like they have rights. I have already said before what I think the punishment for these type of crimes should be.
They're called Human Rights for a reason; If you're a human, you have them, regardless of all other factors.



What I really don't understand is the purpose of your extra punishments. What good do they do?
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  #77 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 08:13 PM
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by MissNanci View Post
So let's say there is this guy. He tortured and raped many girls and women. He is a serial killer. He took dozens of lives and didn't care. He also bought dozens of poor puppies and kitties and kept them in his basement and tortured and starved them.

Do you seriously think if a person did that^^ he does not deserve to suffer? Because I say he deserves the worst pain possible . Tear his limbs off one by one. Everyone on ZU is clearly a softie and too sympathetic to murderers. So I will stop talking.
correct. Not even the worst person deserves to suffer. The reason this person is so terrible is because of all the suffering he caused. The proper way to respond to that is not more suffering. Suffering is wrong, that's why torture and rape and murder and animal abuse are wrong. It is sheer hypocrisy to say that suffering is wrong and then cause suffering in response.

we should be doing all we can to eliminate suffering, not create more. If it is somehow wrong to feel sympathy at the suffering of another human being, then I am guilty as charged, but I believe with full conviction that no human being should ever have to suffer for any reason.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:14 PM
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by MissNanci View Post
So let's say there is this guy. He tortured and raped many girls and women. He is a serial killer. He took dozens of lives and didn't care. He also bought dozens of poor puppies and kitties and kept them in his basement and tortured and starved them.

Do you seriously think if a person did that^^ he does not deserve to suffer? Because I say he deserves the worst pain possible . Tear his limbs off one by one. Everyone on ZU is clearly a softie and too sympathetic to murderers. So I will stop talking.
Well this is just insulting. If you're not going to respond to our responses at least read them.

First off, what you've described is an incredibly unrealistic situation (it's even more unrealistic for these atrocities to have been committed by a fully-sane person).

Secondly, many DO consider prison a form of punishment. There is suffering involved, just not of the potentially-lethal and/or disfiguring kind, and not for the sake of causing suffering. Because ideally, we don't want to be hypocrites (as Lysis mentioned in the post before mine). As for being "sympathetic" to murderers, we're actually being sympathetic to society (at the very least, keeping him alive allows us to study his mental wiring to help us prevent this sort of thing from happening again - the kind of study that just can't be conducted on a torture victim or on a cadaver).

Thirdly, I would argue that we are NOT being "softies". It actually takes a lot more self-control and inner strength to withhold one's wrath than it takes to unleash it.
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  #79 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 08:15 PM
Link the Zora Link the Zora is a male United States Link the Zora is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
No one is being sympathetic. I am and will always be disgusted by such violent acts, nor would I ever feel "sorry" for the person who committed them.

But that does not change the fact that they are human beings, and by inflicting pain and suffering on someone who has inflicted pain and suffering, would be the utmost act of hypocrisy and injustice.

We are simply trying to tell you that the methods you propose would be POINTLESS, and would only cause more problems than they would solve. This is not an opinion, by the way, this is an observable fact.

Torture does not do anything. NOTHING. Zip. Nada. NOTHING. No amount of your Dark Age vigilante spewing is going to change that. It does not teach criminals, it does not teach us ABOUT criminals, nor does it prevent crimes from happening. It's pointless.

I seriously worry that there are actually people that think like you do living in the 21st century, I really, really do.
Exactly, MissNanci. We're not defending this bastard. We hate him just as much as you do. We are disgusted by his actions just as much as you are.

We just think that going Dark Ages/Wild West on bastards like him won't solve anything. It won't.

And unfortunately, he's a human. Everyone, regardless of how good or evil, are human. I think that's why we find it so sickening. It was a human who did this to his own kind. It wasn't a wild animal from the zoo, it wasn't a literal monster. It was one of us.

By understanding human emotions and how the human brain works, can we hope to understand how to rehabilitate criminals.

Also, I think that by showing the compassion the criminal denied to others, we deny the criminal any sort of victory he thought he had. If he believed, for instance, that all humans were barbarians, and that we should cater to our violent nature, our civilized way of justice tells him, "No. That's not how we do it. We are not brutes."
Last Edited by Link the Zora; 07-25-2012 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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  #80 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-25-2012, 08:18 PM
Antigone Antigone is a female United States Antigone is offline
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Re: The Treatment of Mentally Ill Criminals (Colorado Shooting during Batman Premiere)

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Originally Posted by MissNanci View Post
So what if they are human beings?? Just being a human being doesn't mean your life is sacred or some ❤❤❤❤. Humans should only have rights if they behave civilized. Murderers like him have no more rights then a stupid fly in my eyes.
By saying that just because HE is a human being and therefore has no rights, you are applying that same logic to yourself.

By that logic, you yourself should not be treated as a human being for being one. You. Yourself. Even though you are the one saying such things.

Think about that for a moment.
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