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  #21 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 04:25 PM
Coconut Water United States Coconut Water is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

I respect feminists and equality for both women and men. However, I really hope John is right, and that there aren't many women who'd not stop at equality and turn the tables out of revenge or something. Also, I know that women have had it bad since the beginning of time, but don't take it out on me. (I'm talking to people in general and not singling anyone out in this thread while saying these things.) I'm not my ancestors, so don't try and guilt trip me for something I didn't do and use it as weight for your argument. Women suffering sexism longer than men or whatever doesn't make sexism against males any less an issue.

I want equality for both women and men, and will happily teach it to my future children (if I ever have any), along for standing up for someone I see being mistreaded.

But yeah, "Women have it worse than men, so don't come crying to me!" isn't the attitude to have and I hope no one here is like that.
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Last Edited by Coconut Water; 07-03-2012 at 04:28 PM. Reason:
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  #22 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 04:30 PM
ich Will Swedish Empire ich Will is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

Not that this is necessarily sexism but I do loathe those kind of situations when a man is expected to do this and that, just because he's a man. Like for example "oh you're a guy so you have to buy me dinner" or just a plain passive attitude from a woman because "a guy should be doing this instead"

So yea, using your gender as an excuse for certain things..not good

Doesn't matter what your gender is, you still can't completely avoid these silly stereotypes
Last Edited by ich Will; 07-03-2012 at 04:32 PM. Reason:
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  #23 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 04:55 PM
tallgeese tallgeese is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Nonsense. Is it a problem? Sure. But it gets talked about all the time.
I never knew that a personal belief could be nonsense. Let's look over what has transpired here:

My statement: Belief
Your statement: Claim

I don't have to do anything while you have to show that your claim is true. I would like 20 different instances of sexism against males being discussed this year alone. 10 of them have to be from recognizable news corporations such as CNN or Fox, or from academic journals (I would suggest looking through journals that emphasize psychology or sociology).

Quote:
If you can't see the difference between a power fantasy and a derogatory stereotype you really need to do some more looking.
That's you, bro. You're the one who can't tell the difference. You're also the guy that said fiction is supposed to have effects on people in real life. Ha... ha.
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Last Edited by tallgeese; 07-03-2012 at 04:56 PM. Reason:
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  #24 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 08:21 PM
pawptart pawptart is a male United States pawptart is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

If you cure one, you run the risk of overempowering the other. This is the case that those before me have anecdotally related before:

A lot of feminists use their past disadvantage to put men down, for any number of reasons from "men deserve to be oppressed" to "women hold more power than men". You start validating those claims, even slightly (by giving it a name like "feminism", for starters), and you run into problems you would never have if you give equal treatment to both genders over time.

Hence my disagreement with feminism and orientation with whatever the gender equality movement is that ISN'T feminism.
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  #25 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 08:25 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

You're not getting our point, pawptart.

Alright, look, any assumption you make that states "Being a man means being x" by definition includes the corollary "Being a woman means not being x". Both of those are sexist. In order to get rid of sexism against women you must also get rid of sexism against men for that reason.
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  #26 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 08:36 PM
pawptart pawptart is a male United States pawptart is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
You're not getting our point, pawptart.

Alright, look, any assumption you make that states "Being a man means being x" by definition includes the corollary "Being a woman means not being x". Both of those are sexist. In order to get rid of sexism against women you must also get rid of sexism against men for that reason.
I understand your point and agree that it is a solution to the problem.

HOWEVER I disagree that it is the only and best solution.


I've been in this discussion twice now and I'm bowing out. I don't like arguing with the adamant feminists here because the discussion seems to end in "you simply don't understand feminism".
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  #27 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 10:23 PM
Apollo Apollo is a male United States Apollo is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

There is sexism both ways I think we all agree on this. The issue is how bad it is. However it seems this thread has turned into both sides asking the other to prove it. This is a problem, you can't argue with out proper proof, yet people's view of how much and which way the world is sexist depends on the people they interact with.

If you grow up around misandry than you may see the world as being sexist against men and that is totally understandable. Obviously the converse is true. Its all about the people you meet in your life.

What I see as the real issues are gender rolls. If people weren't expected to act certain ways and like certain things there would be a hell of a lot less discrimination. I think gender rolls should be attacked from both sides that no one should expected to be anything, but who they are.

On the topic of the wage gap I have heard it explained that the wage gap is not discrimination, but the fact that women choose to go into lower paying fields. For example going into education and humanities over business and engineering. Can anyone tell me if that is valid or not and shed some light on the subject?
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  #28 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-03-2012, 11:09 PM
tnf Antarctica tnf is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

I don't really get the...arguing in this thread and it seems really roundabout and awkward and weird so I'm just gonna forego this whole "feminism means only girls" thing. Feminism is outdated as a word. Feminism doesn't just mean "only fighting for girls"; yes there are people who subscribe to that. Not everyone.

Sexism against men does exist.
Look it's right here:
Magic Mike (2012) - IMDb

Since this movie has come out all I've seen, everywhere, is "omg eye candy men" etc., and that's supposed to be completely okay.
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  #29 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 02:46 AM
Blak Blak is a male North Korea Blak is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
er...that's...do you even know what marginalization is? It's to be put into a position of less power. It's a state of inequality which necessarily requires that one group be in a lesser position to another group. Two groups can't be "equally marginalized" except to some third group that's exerting power over them.
Weeeeeel... They theoretically COULD be, but only if they were marginalised in different areas- women being put in a state of weakness in the workplace, and men being put in a state of weakness at home, for example (I'm not saying either of these are true, just saying that both groups could be marginalised by each other in the area the other has dominance. I'm also not saying that this actually happens).

I'd like to bring people back to John's broken bones analogy. Perhaps a broken hand would be better than toe, but it still pales in comparison to a fractured skull.
  #30 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 03:30 AM
Xeno Xeno is a male Xeno is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

And here I thought we were going to have a discussion about sexism towards men without the topic making a big shift towards sexism to women.

Although I was probably foolish to think that in the first place.
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Last Edited by Xeno; 07-04-2012 at 03:50 AM. Reason:
  #31 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 01:00 PM
Hoopy Frood Hoopy Frood is a male United States Hoopy Frood is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

I don't care much to get too involved with this argument, but I was curious about something. More than once I've seen it brought up that sexism can only exist if one gender has been marginalized, and that seems silly to me by the definition of the word "sexism."

The first article that shows up when I google sexism is this one: Sexism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems to define sexism as discrimination against someone based on their sex.
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Last Edited by tallgeese; 07-05-2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason:
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  #32 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 01:51 PM
tallgeese tallgeese is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

I seriously suggest people start reading up on the principle of charity. The routine and voluntary misinterpretation of other people's words in this thread is downright insulting.
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Last Edited by tallgeese; 07-05-2012 at 12:21 PM. Reason:
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  #33 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 01:58 PM
pawptart pawptart is a male United States pawptart is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

It's interesting to note that no one has pointed out how gay men are viewed far more negatively than lesbian women.
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  #34 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 02:05 PM
pawptart pawptart is a male United States pawptart is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

Anyway, point being the argument boils down to whether or not the party with more power caused sexism or the inherent nature of human beings is to be sexist.

Eh, I think I'll lean towards humans are just prejudiced ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤s. Males may have brought some of the trouble on themselves but it is not the whole cause, and to ignore that is to ignore all sorts of examples to the contrary (forte's argument regarding racism, for instance).

So, now that we've agreed that sexism against males exists (with the exception of Andross who's annoyingly obstinate anyway), what are the proposed solutions to solving sexism as a whole?
Last Edited by tallgeese; 07-05-2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason:
  #35 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 02:10 PM
tallgeese tallgeese is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawptart View Post
So, now that we've agreed that sexism against males exists (with the exception of Andross who's annoyingly obstinate anyway), what are the proposed solutions to solving sexism as a whole?
Yes, finally! Now we can get somewhere.

I believe the best way to eliminate sexism towards both sexes starts at home with the parents. Most kids grow up seeing mommy or daddy fulfilling certain roles (for example, in some scenarios the woman takes care of the child, stays home and provides the emotional nurturing the child needs while the man is a little more distant, is the "working" parent and is the protector of the family). Through the advancement of social issues in society and through technology, these roles can be reversed, shared, etc. Imagine a child growing up without the idea that girls do mommy-like things and boys do daddy-like things. The mother can be the protector; mace and guns can take care of that. She can also be the working parent if she wants to. What's to stop a father from providing emotional nurturing? Nothing.
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  #36 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-04-2012, 02:53 PM
Silver Silver is a male Union of Britain Silver is offline
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Re: Sexism against men

...for ❤❤❤❤'s sake.

What, in the ❤❤❤❤ing world makes it so that sexism threads can never be civil discussions? What is it about these threads that make people unable to act like adults? What makes it so that these threads always result in the same ❤❤❤❤ing pissing contest?

...bah. In any case, this thread has been rife with a huge amount of inflammatory posting, pointless definition wars that amount to little more than semantics that fail to address the actual thread topic, and the principle of charity is being tossed right out the ❤❤❤❤ing window.

For Christ's sake.


I'm leaving this closed for at the very least tonight to give everyone a chance to calm the hell down. I'll look over it again in the morning when I'm in a better mood to see if this thread can be salvaged.
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