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Old 06-23-2012, 01:49 PM
Nesi Prussia Nesi is offline
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Immigration

A recent discussion on Skype made me aware of the interesting fact that the attitude towards immigration seems to be quite different. Although immigration has been a phenomenon for centuries, these attitudes are still various and, accordingly, they receive most attention from sociologists.

The issue that I mention in the very first sentence of this post is that it appears to me that North Americans seem to be more tolerant towards immigrants than Europeans. (This could be a horrible generalisation for which I apologise.) It was mainly the Canadians who seemed incredibly open and relaxed regarding immigration; while I experience that in Europe it almost always leads to tension and trouble - although it's certainly not an adequate source, I find that most of the immigration issues' sources are in either Europe or somewhere in Asia. The only reason I could find was the hardly satisfying statement of Europe being small and diverse - and it also emphasises, in fact, applauds national diversity. Now I must admit that my knowledge is rather limited regarding how immigration is viewed in North America - or Asia for that matter - and this is where through discussion you guys can fill me in.

This is why I'd like to discuss how you think attitudes differ towards immigration between countries and what do you think creates this difference.

In addition, I wonder how you view / you think your country views
  • flexible and restrictive immigration policies
    (including how strict you think a country should be towards immigrants)
  • the contrast between xenophobia and multiculturalism in your country
  • multiple nationalities within your country and the treatment they get
    (considering many of you are Americans/Canadians/British, I think you all have experience on this matter)

Further, I would also like to know how you define a citizen of a country; in this part I would like you to touch upon the jus sanguinis / jus soli differences and which citizenship model you support and why. This doesn't strictly belong to immigration, but I thought I would add anyway. :'>

With that, I think I shall let the ball roll. Discuss.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:54 PM
Schizophrenic Pretzel Schizophrenic Pretzel is a female United States Schizophrenic Pretzel is offline
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Re: Immigration

I can say a bit about how it is viewed in the southern United States and from my experiences in Japan. If anything, I think the stereotypes held by the people who already live in the country dictate who is or is not welcome to immigrate.

In the southern United States certain immigrants are looked on more fondly than others. It seems that immigrants from European or Asian countries are more welcomed than those coming from Mexico for various reasons. In fact, most discussions I hear about restricting immigration all have to do with restricting persons from Mexico coming over the border. We have the stereotype that people coming from Asia are extremely smart and will all become doctors, lawyers, or something else high paying, so they are usually welcomed in the country if their English is fluent.

I would have to say that in some ways where I live is Xenophobically multicultural, where we say we enjoy being multicultural yet act xenophobic towards certain sets of foreigners. Again, it seems (in my opinion) that who we are or are not xenophobic to seems to be run by stereotypes.

Switching gears to another country.

As a country Japan is very proud of being mostly one race and is quite a bit xenophobic. When taking in refugees Japan usually takes the smallest amount (if it takes any at all) into its country. Like the southern US, Japan seems to have preferences when it comes to who immigrates and for how long. People from English speaking countries are welcomed if they are teaching English classes and considered cool looking, but usually they are only appreciated if staying for a short about of time.

Many Japanese people believe that since they are Japanese they are inherently able to speak and read the Japanese language, and all foreigners would not be able to understand it. When I was studying abroad over there people would look at me in surprise and say "You must be half" since I was able to speak and read the language. (half meaning I must have been born half Japanese). They were further convinced when I was able to eat traditional food thinking it yummy and was able to use chopsticks.

As to how I define a citizen, I'm pretty lax in how I would define a citizen of a country. Does the person call the place home? If yes then I don't see a problem calling that person a citizen. Were they born there? If yes then they are a citizen.
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:05 PM
Ysionris Ysionris is offline
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Re: Immigration

I'm a little bit under the weather right now, but Double A is bugging me to post. If I somehow manage to some reasonable and coherent, please rest assured that it is an accident. ^_^;

I think immigration attitudes have a lot to do with perspectives on two things: Race and economic opportunity (I'm deliberately ignoring "law" for the moment, which will be explained later). I'm somewhat familiar with the immigration situation in the U.S., Central Europe, and East Asia, so let's see what I can do here. ^_^;

A comparison between prevalent attitudes regarding immigration between Europe and the U.S. is marked by how they are perceived. The U.S., for example, has very noticeable xenophobia behind a mask of tolerance and multiculturalism, but if we are to chalk up racism to simple distrust towards anyone that isn't them, I would not necessarily say that the American treatment of foreign persons is particularly different or worse from how other countries treat non-nationals (not that it justifies this behavior). The American complaint, or so it is said, is largely the fact that illegal immigrants are a source of cheap labor, and Americans feel that they're taking all the jobs. (Most economists I have heard from says that trying to stop illegal immigration on an economic basis is equivalent to the U.S. shooting itself in the foot, but that will be a point reserved for another topic.) Combine this with racism, and you have a bit of a winning combination. However, Americans largely feel that job opportunities are being stolen from them, and not that their way of life is being threatened. (Of course, there's also the stereotype that Mexicans are "the dirty man" and African-Americans are "♥♥♥♥♥♥s", but let's not go there right now.)

In Central Europe, meanwhile, the primary issue regarding attitudes on immigration targets Muslim immigrants from the Middle East. The immediate issue here, however, is that not only do Muslim immigrants seem entirely unwilling to compromise on their values, lifestyle, and cultural outlook, they are also hostile towards European culture (a startlingly percentage of Muslims believe that European culture is decadent and morally repugnant); Central European culture and Islamic beliefs seem almost completely incompatible. Historical divides and long-standing attitudes in regards to race and religion have also caused Europeans to colonially discriminate against Muslims over the past three centuries, and unfriendly attitudes exist even today. It's a chicken-egg argument, and I'm not going to get into "who started it", but you have is a deteriorating cycle: Europeans get angry with Muslim immigrants and treat them poorly, which causes Muslim immigrants band together and embrace more radical forms of Islam, which causes Europeans to get angry with Muslim immigrants and treat them poorly. The result is an increasingly obvious and hostile divide between Europeans and Muslim immigrants, part of which splashes onto immigration in general.

East Asian attitudes are racially and historically-inspired. On one hand, as Chocolate Tampon above has mentioned, the Japanese can be very xenophobic, and while they are the extreme example, it's difficult to say that other East Asians fare a whole lot better. A lot of this is historical; much of East Asia consider themselves to be victims to Western colonialism and "arrogance". For example, most Sino-Asian children subject to Sino-Asian culture will unfailingly learn about the "Eight-Nation Alliance" (a military invasion force of the U.S., U.K., Austria-Hungary, Germany, Italy, France, Russia, and Japan) and the humiliations foreign powers have repeatedly inflicted upon China; many Sino-Asian parents I know use such stories as cautionary tales to warn their children getting too "chummy" with "Westerners", saying that history has proved that Western people are arrogant, hypocritical, cruel, and two-faced, and even the "good" Westerners are entitled and naive people who just don't "get it". Similarly, Japanese students learn without fail the kurofune, the Black Ships, in which U.S. Navy Commodore Matthew Perry forced Japan to do trade with the rest of the world by sailing up to their ports and demonstrating the power of their cannons in the most classic case of gunpoint diplomacy. Such incidents, in the eyes of East Asians, have proven to them that people from the West are "enemies" who are actively preventing them from self-rule and gaining power, so there is a strong cultural, historical, racially-motivated discrimination against non-East Asians. There's also the fact that many East Asians believe in stereotypes; the vast majority of East Asians see Southeast Asia - with the exception of Singapore, which has strong Sino-Asian ties - as an underdeveloped, poor, and inferior part of Asia. They're also racially disinclined towards black people; when I explain to my colleagues in East Asia as to why parts of the U.S. have crime problems, the most common question I get is, "It's because there's so many black people, right?" It most certainly doesn't help that there's a significant black population in Japan, which seems to fill the role in Japan that the Roma fill in Europe.
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Old 06-24-2012, 02:04 AM
Flames of Valor Flames of Valor is a male United States Flames of Valor is online now
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Re: Immigration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestlé View Post
  • flexible and restrictive immigration policies
    (including how strict you think a country should be towards immigrants)
I think people in my country want immigration policies to be strict. However, I wouldn't say this is because they simply want to uphold the law. For example, I doubt anyone would care if a random Canadian guy jumped the border (as long he's a decent dude) nearly as much as they would care about someone from South America or Mexico. However, I would like to point out that this is much more a culture and crime issue than it is a race issue. For many people, they like to instantly associate a group of bad apples (black or Mexican gang bangers) to the whole of the race/ethnicity based on experiences they have, or things they observe in news media. When, really, it is a certain culture that breeds these types of people. In my experience, when people have an experience which goes against what they thought, it makes the distinction between bad culture and good culture with a race/ethnicity become clear. What many people perhaps blame as race, is really a blame upon that culture, and the reason we don't see them condemning their own as often or as readily is because that clear distinction has been defined for them a long time ago, and is reinforced more often. Further, it is common knowledge that our weak southern border is very lucrative for the south american gangs. I especially don't blame people who live on or near the border for strongly condemning a lack of action on part of the government, or supporting a well enforced and guarded southern border.

While one could argue (and I would agree with you here) that the way to end that sort of threat is to legalize illegal substances, it's not exactly the point in this case.

Quote:
  • the contrast between xenophobia and multiculturalism in your country
I think I answered that above.

Quote:
  • multiple nationalities within your country and the treatment they get
    (considering many of you are Americans/Canadians/British, I think you all have experience on this matter)
As I said above, there is a difference between race/ethnicity and culture within a race/ethnicity. I don't see anyone of a particular race/ethnicity in my own life who has been unjustly treated. For the most part, though, I do find it justified to treat people differently based on their culture, rather than their race, because certain cultures can be, and ARE dangerous and detrimental to our growth as a species and should be dealt with.

Quote:
Further, I would also like to know how you define a citizen of a country; in this part I would like you to touch upon the jus sanguinis / jus soli differences and which citizenship model you support and why. This doesn't strictly belong to immigration, but I thought I would add anyway. :'>
Define a citizen? Ugh, that's a hard one. I mean, some people have been here long enough for me to consider them citizens. I don't really think there is some objective way to judge, but maybe there should be a slightly more lenient one? Not sure on this one.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:41 AM
/watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY /watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY is a male Central African Republic /watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY is offline
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Re: Immigration

Immigration from my perspective is not a problem. I've always believed that the perfect world would be a world without borders. The real problem in society is intolerance.

The contrast between xenophobia and multiculturalism in your country

I was brought up in Leicester, which is according to statistics Leicester is one of England's most ethnically diverse countries (The statistics are on this link Leicester - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) I know that not all of England - or Britain for that matter is as immigrant-friendly as Leicester and that is reflected by some of the views of those counties. (Take Yorkshire for example a lot of EDL and BNP supporters come from that area, I'm not saying everyone from Yorkshire is a racist or a bigot) So I was very much bought in a multi-cultural society.

We live in a post-9/11 world and sadly there are still repercussions of that event and this is occasionally resonated through some people in Britain. I mentioned in my previous post the EDL and BNP, the EDL have had various confrontation with Asian - in particular Asian who are Muslims throughout England and the EDL even marched in Leicester. They are essentially hooligans who go around trying to provoke with anyone who isn't White or British. (For more information on the EDL visit English Defence League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , don't use their official website it's full of lies)

Multiple nationalities within your country and the treatment they get

From my experiences not many people are bothered about whether you're British-French, German or whatever. Personally I'm something along the lines of British-Polish-German-French and then some. A few years ago, the Daily Mail (a tabloid newspaper - most of it's 'news' is showbiz or regurgitated lies) had some agenda against Polish people and there were a few reports of Englishmen attacking Polish people.

A lot of Polish people were immigrating to Britain at the time and many of them were getting jobs over here, it was shortly after Poland's induction as an EU member (2004 I think) and there was this phrase that kept on coming up on new reports that was "British jobs for British people". The Polish folk were targeted by the media during this time and represents the most recent case of a Multi-Nationalities being treated in such a way in England if you disregard the ongoing dispute between the EDL and the UAF. (Unite Against Fascism Unite Against Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Further, I would also like to know how you define a citizen of a country

I'd like to think that anyone who lives in Britain and refers to themselves as being British-Whatever is a citizen of Britain. In this day and age with the European Union and all that a person is or should be a citizen of the country they call home. Regardless of whether they are from Poland, Croatia or even one of the Congolese countries.

Essentially I'd define a citizen of my country as someone who recognises themselves as a member of this country.
Last Edited by /watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY; 06-24-2012 at 04:42 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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