Sexism in Gaming

Hola all,

Now, to start with, I know that few topics cause more flaming than talks of sexism, save perhaps abortion and tipping etiquette, but I'm feeling a need to get this talked about, if for no other reason than to try and understand some things. Plus, the community here is generally pretty good at staying polite, so let's see how this goes.

So, you may, or more likely may not, have heard of the Kickstarter project by Feminist Frequency on the portrayal of women in video games. The basic project is to be a video series on the portrayal of women in video games.

At first glance, this would seem to be a fairly non-controversial topic: I don't know anyone who doesn't agree that women spend far more time as eye-candy, plot devices, and rewards in games than they do as actual characters or protagonists.

Yet she's received a flood of hatred, calling her all sorts of things, saying that she's obviously a frigid ♥♥♥♥♥ that just needs a good man to put her in her place, etc.

Why?

I mean, I've seen a few of the excuses ("What about men in games?!?!?!?" Sure, they get stereotyped as well, but nowhere near as much, and they tend to at least get to be protagonists. "She hates games!?!?!" Nope, she says that she's an avid gamer, etc.) but I just cannot comprehend this level of hatred over...nothing much.

I initially had no intention of donating because she'd made her goal many times over, but given the huge backlash I decided to drop a few bucks to show support.

If you'd like more info her Kickstarter page has, under the fourth update, a link to some of the abuse she's received, while the fifth update has links to a few gaming blogs talking about it (and aren't the comments there a sight to behold..."I'm not sexist but...").

I suppose it's more of a marketing thing- most (not all, but MOST) gamers are men, and so most gamers are attracted to women. As a result, putting in 'eye candy' is a thing that developers think will help them appeal to their target audience. It's understandable that they do so. Not perhaps excusable, but understandable. If more women bought games, the problem would go away. Maybe.

As for those comments... Whenever you see a topic on the less regulated part of the internet (ie not here or places like here) about any kind of prejudice, you're gonna get inane responses. It's because those places are less 'debate', more 'drop you opinion and leave'. And don't get me started on the lolspeak...

Because men totally don't get stereotyped as butch action heroes.

Anyway, it is a pretty simple reason women exist for this role. Sex sells. What better way to make horny teenage boys buy your game if the box art has a scantily clad woman with large breasts on it? The heads of the large game developers are all middle age men who do not really know the attraction to video games, so treat them like any other product and use tits to sell them. To them, making Lara Croft's tits bigger with each passing game is a more sound business decision than making the game actually good- once that horny teenage boy has bought the game, it is irrelevant if he enjoys the gameplay or not. They have his money.

Besides, there are quite a few games that do not stereotype women. Jennifer Mui in Mercenaries (the first one), is sensibly dressed for the North Korean winter, and the only skin she shows is her face and trigger finger. Not to mention the RPGs where you have a choice on how your character dresses. Forgetting the tiny chainmail and fur armour bikinis in Oblivion, most of the armour in the Elder Scrolls (and fallout) is sensible in the amount of skin it covers.


Basically, I think this woman is making too much of a fuss. There are plenty of games where women are not stereotyped as sex symbols, and if you want to stop sexism against you in multiplayer games just don't use a microphone. Or join a clan and use teamspeak with people you know.

I suppose it's more of a marketing thing- most (not all, but MOST) gamers are men, and so most gamers are attracted to women. As a result, putting in 'eye candy' is a thing that developers think will help them appeal to their target audience. It's understandable that they do so. Not perhaps excusable, but understandable. If more women bought games, the problem would go away. Maybe.

Not really, if more women bought games that would reinforce the way in which women are currently portrayed. A boycott would be more effective.

While obviously I believe that the messages which were left were wrong. I also believe that the message which is sent by such a project is also wrong.

It frames the problem of sexism in video games as a problem solely faced by women. When in actual fact its a problem faced by both sexes. Just as women are portrayed as sex objects men are portrayed as macho, sexist, eye candy, action heroes. A popular example that is currently used by critics of women's image in games is the new Tomb Raider trailer where one of the antagonists tries to rape Lara. How exactly does this reflect poorly on women? If anything it reflects poorly on men reinforcing the trope of the rapist guerrilla fighter.

I'm against sexism in video games, just as I am against sexism in all media. However, I am also against the criticisms of man's image in media being trivialized solely because women have historically been worse off than men. I am against the tropes of men as incompetent man-children, just as I am against the trope of women as whiny ♥♥♥♥♥es on television. I am against the trope of women as sex objects in gaming, just as I am against the trope of men as emotionally distant musclebound action heroes in gaming.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Besides, there are quite a few games that do not stereotype women. Jennifer Mui in Mercenaries (the first one), is sensibly dressed for the North Korean winter, and the only skin she shows is her face and trigger finger. Not to mention the RPGs where you have a choice on how your character dresses. Forgetting the tiny chainmail and fur armour bikinis in Oblivion, most of the armour in the Elder Scrolls (and fallout) is sensible in the amount of skin it covers.

Compare them to the games where you do have things such as chainmail bikinis, though, and one can see that games like Elder Scrolls and characters like Jennifer Mui are in the minority (and, as an aside, I love Jennifer in the first Mercenaries). ^_^;

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Basically, I think this woman is making too much of a fuss. There are plenty of games where women are not stereotyped as sex symbols, and if you want to stop sexism against you in multiplayer games just don't use a microphone. Or join a clan and use teamspeak with people you know.

I don't think this is the right approach. What you're saying is "don't use microphone if you don't want to deal with sexism". This has an uncomfortable feeling of entitlement, and sounds like it's avoiding the problem. What you are suggesting is that women shouldn't reveal themselves as women online, but it's absolutely okay for men. Should we have black people cover themselves up from head-to-toe as well so people can't tell they're black and so we don't have to deal with racism?

Cracked ran an excellent article some time ago regarding sexism, but I'll try to summarize a few points that I believe are relevant:

• Men have been conditioned by society to believe that they are owed a beautiful woman. In almost every movie, all the hero needs to do is to win or overcome his own personal inner demon, and he gets the affections of the heroine. This is regardless of compatibility or the woman's own wishes; she may want to put off relationships to pursue her own dreams, or even protests against the notion, but they're just noise; you know in the end that the hero gets the girl. End of story. This is so prevalent on every possible level of entertainment - not even shows catered towards girls with "strong, independent female leads" are immune to this - that it has been accepted as a social norm: Beautiful girls are the prize when you win. And when you believe that females are a "prize", it's difficult to treat them in any equal way, and so when they demand equality - such as not being treated as a prize - it is considered an outrage to society, so she needs to get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.
• We are trained to see women as decoration. True, everyone tends to see attractive people - regardless of male or female - in a better light. But it carries over so much more for ladies. Think about it: Fat, not-so-photogenic male characters such as Seth (Jonah Hill) from Superbad are portrayed as loveable and adorkable even if they don't sparkle and glitter in the sun, and characters like Kratos from God of War or I-don't-even-know-his-name main character from Gears of War (sorry, I have a mild contempt for that game) can be ugly but still be seen as a great, awesome, competent character. In contrast, when you have a woman on the main cast who's fat or unattractive, the core of her character is to point out how fat and ugly and unattractive she is, and how she only thinks of food. Think about it: When was the last time there was an important, sympathetic main female character in a Hollywood film who didn't look good and thin? When was the last time there was an important, sympathetic main female character who wasn't incredibly gorgeous (and, for Elder Scrolls players, who isn't an orc)? The media pounds it into our head: Male characters can look ugly, but we look at his character instead of his appearances. Female characters can look ugly, and we'll be expressing how ugly she is on the internet.

Okay, so these are issues of sexism against women in general, not gaming in particular. But gaming is largely seen to be a male domain. Almost every single popular multiplayer game out there - from Battlefield 3 to Mass Effect 3 to Modern Warfare 3 to World of Warcraft - are about combat of some kind, a domain largely accepted to be a male-centric area. A large issue is the fact that this is actually a self-perpetuating cycle, but the truth of the matter is that ladies are not considered to be interested in such games (and, for the large part, they aren't, and if you don't believe me, go out, ask ten guys and ten girls if they've ever played a shooter, and come back with results). This, one could easily argue, is due to the self-perpetuating idea that girls don't play these kind of games (and therefore it's not considered a norm for girls to do so, so it becomes socially discouraged, so less girls play these kind of games, so the idea floats around that girls don't play these kind of games). Ultimately, ladies remain the minority in the multiplayer community of combat games, and this can be interpreted as "girls aren't good at these kinds of games".

Is it a valid interpretation? Well, it depends on how skewed you believe real life circumstances are. After all, it's considered a social norm for guys to spend entire days in the basement, shooting things in front of the computer, buried in bags of Doritos and bottles of Pepsi, but society in general does not consider this lifestyle acceptable for ladies; there would therefore be less parental and social support for her spending the kind of hours practicing at a particular game that the male gamer would. It's a self-perpetuating process, so the statistics - although seemingly in support of "girls just aren't interested in these games" or "girls aren't as good at these games are guys" - while valid, are also faulty without the proper context.

...And I think I've rambled on enough. >_<

Originally Posted by Ysionris

I don't think this is the right approach. What you're saying is "don't use microphone if you don't want to deal with sexism". This has an uncomfortable feeling of entitlement, and sounds like it's avoiding the problem. What you are suggesting is that women shouldn't reveal themselves as women online, but it's absolutely okay for men. Should we have black people cover themselves up from head-to-toe as well so people can't tell they're black and so we don't have to deal with racism?

I think that is going a bit too far with the argument. I don't think anyone should use microphones in public matches in multiplayer games (that is the realm of teenage boys screaming insults at each other). Note how I mentioned using teamspeak to talk to people who will not make sexist remarks all the time (friends, or a clam you are in). I never said women should not be allowed to use in game voice, it is just an unnecessary feature that can be ignored if all it generates is sexism.
Besides, the sexism received by women who use in game voice is of no fault of the game developers. Rather, it is the action of immature teenage boys who get e-boners by acting sexist.

snip

Combat games tend to be seen as the realm of male gamers because combat IS the realm of males. Until I see feminists start protesting about draft systems only applying to men (I have never understood that, if they want equal rights, then why do they not want equal duties?), then it always will be.
I think, however, one really big problem with this is girls who say they are GAMER GURLLZZ just to get attention from men and don't actually play the games for fun. Basically every friend request I have got from a female on steam is some scantily clad woman who says I AM A GIRL I PLAY TEAM FORTRESS 2 LOVE MEEEE! What better way to get attention from nerds by saying you love video games? The whole GAMER GURL thing just makes my blood boil, and they are one big reason why women get so much sexism. Those sorts give the rest of us a bad name. If only those types did not exist, did not go into servers and show off their femaleness to get attention, then I am pretty sure there would be a lot less sexism.

Before you say "This isn't widespread", well it is. Just search for "girl" on Battlelog (the multiplayer service for Battlefield 3) and you will find loads of profiles of girls who put their gender in their username and a provocative photograph of themselves as their avatar. Yes, there are probably lots of females (like myself) who use the service and do not advertise themselves, but those that do just to draw attention for themselves are a very big problem. Until those types learn that they give the rest of us a bad name, I am sure the amount of sexism by male gamers to females will only increase.

Is it a valid interpretation? Well, it depends on how skewed you believe real life circumstances are. After all, it's considered a social norm for guys to spend entire days in the basement, shooting things in front of the computer, buried in bags of Doritos and bottles of Pepsi, but society in general does not consider this lifestyle acceptable for ladies; there would therefore be less parental and social support for her spending the kind of hours practicing at a particular game that the male gamer would. It's a self-perpetuating process, so the statistics - although seemingly in support of "girls just aren't interested in these games" or "girls aren't as good at these games are guys" - while valid, are also faulty without the proper context.

Trust me, that is extremely common for females too. They just have the sense not to advertise it.
When one thinks "female gamer", the gut reaction is the scantily clad girl sucking on an xbox controller in her facebook profile, saying she is a massive gamer because she plays farmville all day. Lots of actual females play video games in the same way as men, and like men do not brag about it whenever they can. Most female gamers are exactly the same as men and do not warrant the gender prefix to their hobby- do you ever see men categorised as "male gamers"?

This whole problem of sexism is generated mostly because of a proportion of females (albeit a minority) who are extremely vocal about advertising their supposed hobby in order to bring attention to themselves. The vast majority of females who actually do play video games as their hobby do not advertise it, and as a result slip beneath the radar and do not factor into people's views on women when it comes to gaming.

Originally Posted by Mister Blak

I suppose it's more of a marketing thing- most (not all, but MOST) gamers are men,

Not true, actually. That hasn't been true for at least a decade. I think the current ratio is something like 40/60 for self-identified gamers, though I'll have to check.

Plus, of course, you have to ask cause and effect here. Do you buy things that are designed to be "girly"? Maybe a few, but you probably prefer things that aren't. So if games are relentlessly targeted at men and advertised as being "manly" then that's going to drive women away.

As for those comments... Whenever you see a topic on the less regulated part of the internet (ie not here or places like here) about any kind of prejudice, you're gonna get inane responses. It's because those places are less 'debate', more 'drop you opinion and leave'. And don't get me started on the lolspeak...

Sure, but why is it their opinion? Why all this hatred?

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Because men totally don't get stereotyped as butch action heroes.

I quickly addressed that in my post: Yes, men get stereotyped, but in general those stereotypes are less stringent (Men are socially awkward or ugly, and even scrawny, in games all the time) and portray men much more positively. A woman who wants a role-model from gaming has a sharply limited selection, with most of the roles being those of eye candy or distressed damsel.

Anyway, it is a pretty simple reason women exist for this role. Sex sells. What better way to make horny teenage boys buy your game if the box art has a scantily clad woman with large breasts on it? The heads of the large game developers are all middle age men who do not really know the attraction to video games, so treat them like any other product and use tits to sell them. To them, making Lara Croft's tits bigger with each passing game is a more sound business decision than making the game actually good- once that horny teenage boy has bought the game, it is irrelevant if he enjoys the gameplay or not. They have his money.

But that doesn't preclude having competent women as well. Metroid Prime 3, for example, has Samus from a first-person view, so no eye-candy there, but also has Gandrayda, who is much more eye-candyish (though, on the plus side, is also quite competent, but you get my point).

Besides, there are quite a few games that do not stereotype women. Jennifer Mui in Mercenaries (the first one), is sensibly dressed for the North Korean winter, and the only skin she shows is her face and trigger finger. Not to mention the RPGs where you have a choice on how your character dresses. Forgetting the tiny chainmail and fur armour bikinis in Oblivion, most of the armour in the Elder Scrolls (and fallout) is sensible in the amount of skin it covers.

Sure, there are some exceptions, but they're far from normal. Nintendo has one game series with a competent female character, and they dumped a heapin' help of sexism on it with Other M. Other game studios aren't much better.

Basically, I think this woman is making too much of a fuss. There are plenty of games where women are not stereotyped as sex symbols, and if you want to stop sexism against you in multiplayer games just don't use a microphone. Or join a clan and use teamspeak with people you know.

So women should just quietly accept not being able to use voice in games, something men can do? Really?

And how do you know she's making too much of a fuss? She hasn't said anything yet. She has expressed no opinions on sexism in gaming at this point in time. For all we know she might conclude that it doesn't exist, though that does seem unlikely.

But this is part of what I mean: You've pre-judged her before hearing what she has to say, and have decided that she's acting out of place, somehow, despite not having said anything yet. Why?

Originally Posted by John

So women should just quietly accept not being able to use voice in games, something men can do? Really?

Men shouldn't do it either. I find public voice systems in games abhorrent, like I said in my other post it is just the realm of teenage boys to sling insults at each other. I don't see why women would even want to use it.

Besides, if you read my post I advocated that if they really want to use voice communication then use teamspeak or another VOIP program to talk to people they trust. Same goes for males.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Combat games tend to be seen as the realm of male gamers because combat IS the realm of males. Until I see feminists start protesting about draft systems only applying to men (I have never understood that, if they want equal rights, then why do they not want equal duties?)

Nice strawman. Most feminists argue for allowing women into combat roles and to treating them the same as men in such things. Most are also anti-draft in general, but that's a separate issue.

, then it always will be.
I think, however, one really big problem with this is girls who say they are GAMER GURLLZZ just to get attention from men and don't actually play the games for fun. Basically every friend request I have got from a female on steam is some scantily clad woman who says I AM A GIRL I PLAY TEAM FORTRESS 2 LOVE MEEEE! What better way to get attention from nerds by saying you love video games? The whole GAMER GURL thing just makes my blood boil, and they are one big reason why women get so much sexism. Those sorts give the rest of us a bad name. If only those types did not exist, did not go into servers and show off their femaleness to get attention, then I am pretty sure there would be a lot less sexism.

Why do they make your blood boil? They can do what they like, and if they want to use games to pick up guys then let 'em.

They've also found, due to sexism, that the main way to get acceptance as a girl while gaming is to be like that. Act otherwise and you get called a frigid ♥♥♥♥♥ by everyone.

This whole problem of sexism is generated mostly because of a proportion of females (albeit a minority) who are extremely vocal about advertising their supposed hobby in order to bring attention to themselves. The vast majority of females who actually do play video games as their hobby do not advertise it, and as a result slip beneath the radar and do not factor into people's views on women when it comes to gaming.

Really? Victim blaming? Really? You honestly think that if everyone was a clone of you then there'd be no sexism?

A big part of treating women equal to men is letting them express their sexuality, same as men do all the time. So, no, every woman being modest doesn't get rid of sexism, it re-enforces it.

Originally Posted by John

Nice strawman. Most feminists argue for allowing women into combat roles and to treating them the same as men in such things. Most are also anti-draft in general, but that's a separate issue.

I love how people here in SD seem to be more content with attacking other's argumentative style with those odd words like "strawman" instead of the argument directly, but hey. It is a separate issue. Like you said.

Why do they make your blood boil? They can do what they like, and if they want to use games to pick up guys then let 'em.

It angers me because it generates a lot of sexism. I want the sexism to stop, and if those types where not such huge attention whores then a lot of it would not happen.

They've also found, due to sexism, that the main way to get acceptance as a girl while gaming is to be like that. Act otherwise and you get called a frigid ♥♥♥♥♥ by everyone.

Really. I have trouble believing this. Considering acting like an attention whore is what brings on the majority of the sexism, coupled with my lack of experiences of being called a "frigid ♥♥♥♥♥" by anyone, then I do not think your argument carries much weight.

Really? Victim blaming? Really? You honestly think that if everyone was a clone of you then there'd be no sexism?

Ah, Serious Discussion on ZU. When having a dissenting opinion on women, sexism, or rape is automatically victim blaming.

And yes, I do. If certain groups did not stand out in an appalling way, then there would be no reason to discriminate against the entire group. The vast majority of female gamers act exactly the same as men, so why should they suffer due to the actions of a minority?

A big part of treating women equal to men is letting them express their sexuality, same as men do all the time. So, no, every woman being modest doesn't get rid of sexism, it re-enforces it.

If there is nothing to be sexist about, then there would be no sexism. I believe both sexes should be treated equally, but I do not think a minority group should have the right to spoil the enjoyment of any hobby for the rest. The "GAMER GURLL" stereotype does exactly this. Okay, so it is a group of women expressing their sexuality, but all it does is ruin the enjoyment for the rest of us! We have to deal with sexism from immature teenagers (something you, as a male, would have no experience of), so obviously I resent the groups that provide the ammunition. If you feel I am being sexist myself, then that is your opinion, but do not think I am "blaming the victim". The minority of females who make the lives of others hell are certainly not the victim in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

I love how people here in SD seem to be more content with attacking other's argumentative style with those odd words like "strawman" instead of the argument directly, but hey. It is a separate issue. Like you said.

No, it's a logical fallacy. I'm not attacking your argument "style", I'm attacking your argument and saying it's false.

It angers me because it generates a lot of sexism. I want the sexism to stop, and if those types where not such huge attention whores then a lot of it would not happen.

Then how do you explain the fact that sexism predates that by millennia? Women have been treated very differently from men since the dawn of civilization, was that because of "camwhores"?

Ah, Serious Discussion on ZU. When having a dissenting opinion on women, sexism, or rape is automatically victim blaming.

You're saying it's the fault of the victim, that's textbook victim blaming.

And yes, I do. If certain groups did not stand out in an appalling way, then there would be no reason to discriminate against the entire group. The vast majority of female gamers act exactly the same as men, so why should they suffer due to the actions of a minority?

Let's pretend you're right: If all women acted just like you then there'd be no sexism: You're still letting male gamers off. They're the ones being sexist, but it's not their fault, instead it's the fault of women who somehow force them to be sexist? Really?

If there is nothing to be sexist about, then there would be no sexism.

Seriously? So all racism, sexism, discrimination, and bigotry is justified and based on reality?

I believe both sexes should be treated equally, but I do not think a minority group should have the right to spoil the enjoyment of any hobby for the rest. The "GAMER GURLL" stereotype does exactly this. Okay, so it is a group of women expressing their sexuality, but all it does is ruin the enjoyment for the rest of us! We have to deal with sexism from immature teenagers (something you, as a male, would have no experience of), so obviously I resent the groups that provide the ammunition. If you feel I am being sexist myself, then that is your opinion, but do not think I am "blaming the victim". The minority of females who make the lives of others hell are certainly not the victim in my eyes.

You are blaming the victim. You're saying that the people actually being sexist aren't to blame, it's all the fault of those slutty whores who force them to act that way.

Then how do you explain the fact that sexism predates that by millennia? Women have been treated very differently from men since the dawn of civilization, was that because of "camwhores"?

I think it's pretty clear Rhian is referring to sexism in terms of social gaming than in terms of every example of sexism that has ever existed.

Let's pretend you're right: If all women acted just like you then there'd be no sexism: You're still letting male gamers off. They're the ones being sexist, but it's not their fault, instead it's the fault of women who somehow force them to be sexist? Really?

It's what we refer to as societal conditioning. Males are conditioned to expect certain behaviors from women in gaming because of how a certain subset of the community acts.

Originally Posted by John

No, it's a logical fallacy. I'm not attacking your argument "style", I'm attacking your argument and saying it's false.

Then do that using your own argument instead of dumb terms someone pulled out of their ass. "Strawman"? Seriously? That the best someone came up with?

Then how do you explain the fact that sexism predates that by millennia? Women have been treated very differently from men since the dawn of civilization, was that because of "camwhores"?

See Matt's post. I am referring to sexism in gaming, which incidentally is the title of this thread.

You're saying it's the fault of the victim, that's textbook victim blaming.

Proof of point. Besides, you and I have differing opinions on who exactly is the victim here.

Let's pretend you're right: If all women acted just like you then there'd be no sexism: You're still letting male gamers off. They're the ones being sexist, but it's not their fault, instead it's the fault of women who somehow force them to be sexist? Really?

Haha no. Firstly, the vast majority of male gamers are not sexist. Most of the sexism comes from immature teenagers who probably still believe in cooties. They will always be immature. It is a lost cause to try and rehabilitate them.
And not once have I said it is not their fault. This is reminiscent of the slutwalk thread when I was labelled as blaming the victim because I advised on personal safety. Not once have I said those being sexist are fine to do so, I am merely addressing the root causes of the problem.

Seriously? So all racism, sexism, discrimination, and bigotry is justified and based on reality?

Hahahah.
I am merely against giving sexists, racists and other bigots ammunition to use on other people. I thought I wouldn't have to tell you I am against such actions, but it seems I have to. I am against racism, sexism, etc- I also find it stupid to give those groups ammunition to throw at people.

You are blaming the victim. You're saying that the people actually being sexist aren't to blame, it's all the fault of those slutty whores who force them to act that way.

I never said the sexists are not to blame, please do not put words in my mouth. What I said was the attention whore types are NOT the victim here- the victims are those who do not do anything that warrants any form of abuse (not using games as a device to boost their own egos and bring attention to themselves) but who receive it anyway. Those women who play video games for their own enjoyment but get grouped with the attention whore types through no fault of their own. They are the victim here.

Originally Posted by John

Yes, men get stereotyped, but in general those stereotypes are less stringent (Men are socially awkward or ugly, and even scrawny, in games all the time) and portray men much more positively.

This.
I'd also like to add that things like musclebound heroes such as Kratos or Conan strike me as more of a male power fantasy than catering to female audiences.

I've read some comments recently that can basically be summed up as that the reason there's upset over sexism (perceived or not) in fantasy (or in this case, gaming) really has more to do with sexism in real life than anything, and that once the complaints about the portrayal of women in fantasy go away, it'll mean we're doing something right in real life.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Then do that using your own argument instead of dumb terms someone pulled out of their ass. "Strawman"? Seriously? That the best someone came up with?

It's an official logical term. A strawman argument is one where you argue against a position no one actually holds. "Republicans believe all babies should be eaten, but they're wrong because..." is a strawman argument.

See Matt's post. I am referring to sexism in gaming, which incidentally is the title of this thread.

But why is sexism in gaming somehow radically different from sexism in the rest of life? I do think it has somewhat different causes and effects, but it seems odd to hold that sexism in real life is baseless while sexism in gaming is justified.

Haha no. Firstly, the vast majority of male gamers are not sexist. Most of the sexism comes from immature teenagers who probably still believe in cooties. They will always be immature. It is a lost cause to try and rehabilitate them.
And not once have I said it is not their fault. This is reminiscent of the slutwalk thread when I was labelled as blaming the victim because I advised on personal safety. Not once have I said those being sexist are fine to do so, I am merely addressing the root causes of the problem.

The "root cause" are those being sexist. They're people, they're responsible for their actions. I also don't recall saying that most male gamers are sexist.

Hahahah.
I am merely against giving sexists, racists and other bigots ammunition to use on other people. I thought I wouldn't have to tell you I am against such actions, but it seems I have to. I am against racism, sexism, etc- I also find it stupid to give those groups ammunition to throw at people.

Then you're giving them more power. You're letting them define how people should and shouldn't act. Me, I prefer to take power away from bigots.

I never said the sexists are not to blame, please do not put words in my mouth. What I said was the attention whore types are NOT the victim here- the victims are those who do not do anything that warrants any form of abuse (not using games as a device to boost their own egos and bring attention to themselves) but who receive it anyway. Those women who play video games for their own enjoyment but get grouped with the attention whore types through no fault of their own. They are the victim here.

Can't both be victims?

It's certainly worth pointing out that women now constitute 42% of gamers in the United States alone (I can't find figures for other countries, but it probably wouldn't be a stretch to say that the numbers are quite similar). That's no small minority - the suggestion that this wouldn't happen if women bought more games doesn't hold much water.

In any case, there's certainly still a very misogynistic culture prevalent in many circles of gaming - an ugly reflection of misogyny in our culture as a whole.

"Not in the Kitchen Any More" is a website chronicling the experiences of a female gamer who regularly plays Call of Duty. She has recorded a litany of comments on her gender, raging from baffled puzzlement at the presence of a woman, to aggressive sexual insults and lewd harassment.

And before the inevitable "but men get insults directed at them too!", please note that these insults are very specifically gendered - they are getting directed at this gamer because she is female. This is made painfully obvious by remarks such as these:

Spoiler: TW for nastiness  

"All you're good for is your vagina."

"I hope your boyfriend beats you. Nah, you can’t get a boyfriend. The ♥♥♥♥ am I talking about."

"Get the ♥♥♥♥ back in the kitchen and take your goddamn hands off a ♥♥♥♥ing video game controller."

"♥♥♥♥ing dumb ♥♥♥♥♥. I hope a ♥♥♥♥ing ♥♥♥♥♥♥ rapes you and ♥♥♥♥ing kills you and your family, you camping ♥♥♥♥ing twat!"

"It’s a girl. I like me a female. Cook in the kitchen for me baby? My name is Tasty, wanna taste."

RMP1: "Yo, are you a girl?"

Me: "Yes."

RMP1: "That’s hot. [weird moaning noises]"

This is a vital difference. If it isn't acknowledged, then there is no point in having this discussion at all.

Now, I daresay that the majority of gamers aren't this horrible. However, the fact that there are enough of them to fill up an entire blog, as experienced by just one gamer, is quite sad. Not to mention the literally thousands of misogynistic remarks on Feminist Frequency's Youtube channel. Or the torrent of abuse that a lone female participant, Jackie Lee, in a Magic: The Gathering tournament experienced. Or a video game tournament coach justifying sexual harassment in fighting games.

Then do that using your own argument instead of dumb terms someone pulled out of their ass. "Strawman"? Seriously? That the best someone came up with?

Just a quick note here, let's tone it down before it gets worse. Thanks.

Gaming draws on the same stereotypes that every other form of media does. From that perspective, you can understand exactly why the stereotypical He-Man and She-Ra appear so often not just in fantasy gaming but in every other fantasy scenario that draws from the stereotype. Even they are glaring stereotypes of the fantasy art genera, which has managed to make book covers seedier than romance novels since who knows when.

Stereotypes aren't just easy but also tend to be safe. It's a stereotype because the stereotype is accepted. The more accepted it is the less you think about how accepted it is. This perpetuates to the point where people begin to expect the stereotype, to the point where they feel a typical fantasy-type game is incomplete without the typical fantasy game stereotype.

They're especially easy too, and because they're instantly accepted naturally advertising uses them. Look at banner ads. You can't go more than three refreshes before you see a stereotypical fantasy browser game, usually a clone of a much better and slightly more expensive game, with a very stereotypical fantasy character (He-Man or, more typically, She-Ra). It's what people expect because they've accepted the stereotype.

It goes a step further than that though into bad writing. It's gotten to the point where all characters must be loaded with angst, sex crazed, and murderous. I personally like to believe that, no, your average teen, if seen stealing a candy bar, will not immediately degenerate to killing all the witnesses. No, really, most women are not looking to sleep with the first guy who walks up to them wearing an expensive watch. Not all relationships are entirely sexual ones, and if anything women are very picky about them men they own.

Originally Posted by John

Not true, actually. That hasn't been true for at least a decade. I think the current ratio is something like 40/60 for self-identified gamers, though I'll have to check.

Really? They must be very quiet about it (not meaning to be inflammatory, I'm admitting it's a possibility). Most of the guys I know could be categorized as gamers, but I only know around five girls who could be described in the same way. I also know that whenever I'm playing Halo or Battlefield, most people use their mikes, and perhaps one in twenty people is a woman. But perhaps my experiences are unrepresentative. I don't know.

Originally Posted by John

Plus, of course, you have to ask cause and effect here. Do you buy things that are designed to be "girly"? Maybe a few, but you probably prefer things that aren't. So if games are relentlessly targeted at men and advertised as being "manly" then that's going to drive women away.

I sort of do. I love Animal Crossing, for example. The only reason I don't buy 'girly' games normally is because they suck )not because they're girly, but because they're ♥♥♥♥, and normally aimed at ten year olds). I'll admit there's a catch-22 situation going on here, but it would cost money to break that cycle, which is not something companies have the luxury of doing right now.

Originally Posted by John

Sure, but why is it their opinion? Why all this hatred?

Because, quite simply, when a system is un/poorly regulated, morons get in and leave their dumps opinions before bailing. If you look at those message boards, you'll realize that if it were a forum like ZU then that person would be shot down. Regulation is important, but impossible.

Originally Posted by John

I quickly addressed that in my post: Yes, men get stereotyped, but in general those stereotypes are less stringent (Men are socially awkward or ugly, and even scrawny, in games all the time) and portray men much more positively. A woman who wants a role-model from gaming has a sharply limited selection, with most of the roles being those of eye candy or distressed damsel.

See the catch-22 situation.

Originally Posted by John

But that doesn't preclude having competent women as well. Metroid Prime 3, for example, has Samus from a first-person view, so no eye-candy there, but also has Gandrayda, who is much more eye-candyish (though, on the plus side, is also quite competent, but you get my point).

Lots of games have competent women. Skyrim, for example, has a lot of good female NPCs (I can't name any, but then again I can't name any male NPCs either). Like you said, Metroid is good for that, too. I could probably think of others.

Originally Posted by John

Sure, there are some exceptions, but they're far from normal. Nintendo has one game series with a competent female character, and they dumped a heapin' help of sexism on it with Other M. Other game studios aren't much better.

What was wrong with Other M? I'll admit Samus got a bit soppy at times, but this was all about memories from a rater traumatic past, and let's not forget that she watched her father figure walk off into certain death.

As for Metroid, I don't know that it was really Other M that took Samus down the wrong path. I've been upset about what they did to her ever since her zero-suit makeover in MP Echoes... Metroid is kind of a feminist game... but like, not really at the same time.

Also, not to blame the victim, but part of the issue is that while there are many ladies in gaming, they themselves are complacent about the way things stand. I've met female gamers who are just as concerned as men about the attractiveness of female protagonists or side characters. This doesn't have to do with video games, but I watched American Idol with my sister many years ago when Jennifer Hudson was in it, and I remember that she criticized her for being fat. My sister also suggested that I marry a certain girl in Harvest Moon, because she's the prettiest one. Girls can be really critical of girls in media, and very quick to say, "Ew, she's ugly."

Anyway, the problem clearly exists and should be addressed. But the first step to addressing it is that more female gamers need to get more angry. So that Kickstarter thing would probably help because it would create more awareness.

Are games sexist? Sure. Should we fight it? No way. Video games are a form of expression, and there should be nothing illegal about sexism in books, movies, TV shows, and video games.

Don't like sexist games? Then don't buy them.