Atheist student sues high school over graduation prayer

My very own alma mater of Irmo High School (in Columbia, SC USA) is garnering statewide attention for the controversy you see in the thread title. Matthew Nielson, a self-identifying atheist, is suing the school district because of a public Judeo-Christian prayer offered at his graduation earlier this week. You can only imagine how well such a move is going over here in the very heart of the so-called Bible belt.

See here:
Student suing school district over pre-graduation prayer - wistv.com - Columbia, South Carolina |

And here:
Prayer at Graduation Lawsuit: People Weigh In | wltx.com

Nielson claims that the prayer is a violation of church and state, and it ostracizes everyone who is not Christian (or of some monotheistic faith who calls their god "Father"). His opponents claim that this prayer is a long-standing tradition, was put to a vote long before graduation, and it won by an overwhelming majority (something like only 3 votes against, presumably including Nielson's)--that and the inevitable accusations of the boy whining and seeking money and attention.

So what do you think?

Personally, I agree with Nielson. This prayer is perfectly appropriate for a private religious school, but it has no place in a government funded public school, the commencement ceremony for which is supposed to be for everybody, not just the privileged majority. I do disagree with Nielson suing for monetary damages, but I think it's fine to sue only for legal expenses. He himself claims he's suing not for money but to get the policy changed. I hope that's true.

Nevertheless, the principle of the thing still stands. A moment of silence would've sufficed just fine for a public ceremony like that. A prayer to a Judeo-Christian "Father" does not. I myself am a Christian, but I do not think we have the right to impose our beliefs or ways on others who have chosen not to be within our ranks.

Originally Posted by Nielson

"The graduating class doesn't necessarily have the right to express their will when it conflicts with the rights of other students,"

I strongly disagree with this. Why should he, the minority, have the authority to forbid the majority from doing what they want to do, and what the courts have fairly regularly conceded is legal to do? They voted on whether or not to have a prayer, and it was student led. Those types of graduation prayers are, as far as I've ever read, heard, or seen, completely legal. Had this been a school led, school administered prayer, then he would have had a case. But as it stands, based on the stories google has found for me, he's going to lose this frivolous lawsuit.

Sounds like someone is trying to make some money, to me.

Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about. During my graduation ceremony one of the vice principals ended with a quote from the Bible and then said something about God. Didn't bother me one bit and I identified as an atheist at that point. Sure I would have preferred a quote by Jim Morrison or Gandhi or something but I'll take some Jesus too.

I mean, it isn't like he was forced to stand up and declare his submission to God. The class voted to have a short prayer at the end of the ceremony. I myself have never been bothered when I went to church and everyone joined together in prayer, or when we ate a meal and was asked to join in saying grace. To me it's just a moment of silence.


edit: actually my friend's mom used to ask me to say grace a few times because I'm a good speaker. I've ad lib some pretty good prayers in the past despite a lack of faith.

Originally Posted by mattj

I strongly disagree with this. Why should he, the minority, have the authority to forbid the majority from doing what they want to do, and what the courts have fairly regularly conceded is legal to do? They voted on whether or not to have a prayer, and it was student led. Those types of graduation prayers are, as far as I've ever read, heard, or seen, completely legal. Had this been a school led, school administered prayer, then he would have had a case. But as it stands, based on the stories google has found for me, he's going to lose this frivolous lawsuit.

This still violates separation of church and state. It's a public school, not a religious one. It doesn't matter if it was put to a vote or not. If the majority voted to see if the school should segregate whites from blacks, would the minority just have to go along with it, or should they fight it?

Originally Posted by Notsil

Sounds like someone is trying to make some money, to me.

So you can read minds and motives now? We don't know what his motivations are. But the principle of the thing still stands, regardless of his intentions.

Originally Posted by mattj

I strongly disagree with this. Why should he, the minority, have the authority to forbid the majority from doing what they want to do,

Because if he can't then you have the tyranny of the majority, something the US constitution was expressly written to prevent.

and what the courts have fairly regularly conceded is legal to do?

No, they've concluded dozens of times that school-lead prayer is illegal. The school clearly endorsed the prayer by offering it as an option.

See: Numerous cases where schools have gotten in trouble for allowing valedictorians to lead prayers if the school vetted their speech before-hand.

They voted on whether or not to have a prayer, and it was student led. Those types of graduation prayers are, as far as I've ever read, heard, or seen, completely legal. Had this been a school led, school administered prayer, then he would have had a case. But as it stands, based on the stories google has found for me, he's going to lose this frivolous lawsuit.

Turns out that you can't just vote to take away someone's rights.

Originally Posted by mattj

I strongly disagree with this. Why should he, the minority, have the authority to forbid the majority from doing what they want to do, and what the courts have fairly regularly conceded is legal to do? They voted on whether or not to have a prayer, and it was student led. Those types of graduation prayers are, as far as I've ever read, heard, or seen, completely legal. Had this been a school led, school administered prayer, then he would have had a case. But as it stands, based on the stories google has found for me, he's going to lose this frivolous lawsuit.

then you might want to take a look at supreme court cases Lee v. weisman and Santa Fe Independent School district v. Doe. Both cases reaffirm that holding prayers at public school functions, student led or not, violates the establishment clause. There are exceptions made to this in cases where the school takes no active role in it which is why events like national day of prayer are allowed. But it sounds to me like the district got involved by having a policy for this in the first place. This will take more examination in court, but I think Nielson has the law on his side here.

Originally Posted by Gamzee

Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about. During my graduation ceremony one of the vice principals ended with a quote from the Bible and then said something about God. Didn't bother me one bit and I identified as an atheist at that point. Sure I would have preferred a quote by Jim Morrison or Gandhi or something but I'll take some Jesus too.

See, that's not quite so bad. That's not making everyone remove their caps and bow their heads in a very public prayer.

I mean, it isn't like he was forced to stand up and declare his submission to God. The class voted to have a short prayer at the end of the ceremony. I myself have never been bothered when I went to church and everyone joined together in prayer, or when we ate a meal and was asked to join in saying grace. To me it's just a moment of silence.

Again, with the majority argument. So the majority should always win, and the minority must meekly accept, never fight back when they think something's wrong?

And of course you weren't bothered--you were at a church! A public school's graduation ceremony is not a church.

Well, um, I don't really feel that it's fair to compare a class voting to have a quick prayer to the segregation of the 1900's. I mean, I get what you're saying: the majority is not always the fairest opinion, but a prayer isn't the same as being forced into understaffed schools, beaten, and seen as less than a human by society.

Wouldn't a moment of silence be more universal? That way, anyone could use that time to meditate in however way they want to, and we wouldn't have these minority vs majority issues.

Yeah. Hypothetically if I were involved in this school I would have asked for a moment of silence instead so I and other people of other faiths (and atheists) wouldn't feel excluded during it. Just looking at this as an individual, though, I don't really see an issue.

Graduation ceremonies suck at any rate. My beautiful hair did not agree with the tight cap I had to wear.

Originally Posted by Rew

His opponents claim that this prayer is a long-standing tradition, was put to a vote long before graduation, and it won by an overwhelming majority

the thing is, none of these are actually excuses for violating the United States Constitution. Slavery of black people was also a long-standing tradition.

Originally Posted by mattj

I strongly disagree with this. Why should he, the minority, have the authority to forbid the majority from doing what they want to do

what, are you serious? You think the majority should just be able to do whatever the hell they want? The Bill of Rights specifically exists to prevent the majority from having their way with the minority. All people, not just the majority but all people, deserve to have their rights protected.

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Iron Man

PS: I find it highly ironic that people are using the Establishment Clause to enable the exact thing that the Establishment Clause was supposed to prevent: people being able to impose their religious (or non-religious) views onto other people's personal and individual actions and private lives. The dude's essentially saying that he should have been able to force everyone else to pretend that they don't believe in God.

a graduation ceremony in a public school is not personal, individual, or private. It's public.

I'm an atheist in a christian school. I put up with the compulsory services and stuff, just keep quiet during the creed. It's a great time for napping. Making RS a compulsory GCSE is maybe taking it a bit far, but I wouldn't go as far as taking my school to court for its faith. I chose to go there, after all (even if by me I mean my parents), and atheists are a minority group, as you're all saying. It's not as if rubbing along with the religious stuff is going to have any serious consequences or anything - if anything it will educate you, make you more tolerant and understanding.
If the person who sued his school couldn't handle people with different views just for a day then I fear for him out there in the world.


...uh oh, I posted in SD

Nielson was not forced to participate in the prayer, and suffered no disadvantages nor ill-effects from not participating.

This is a particularly interesting point. If there was no disadvantage to not-participating in the prayer nor an expectation to participate (which can come from something as simple as, for example, flak from his peers for not-participating) EDIT: AND if it was student-led and NOT endorsed by the school, then I don't think he has a case.

MANG WHERE'S RAPTOR BUDDHA WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

Originally Posted by Intrigue

I'm an atheist in a christian school. I put up with the compulsory services and stuff, just keep quiet during the creed. It's a great time for napping. Making RS a compulsory GCSE is maybe taking it a bit far, but I wouldn't go as far as taking my school to court for its faith. I chose to go there, after all (even if by me I mean my parents), and atheists are a minority group, as you're all saying. It's not as if rubbing along with the religious stuff is going to have any serious consequences or anything - if anything it will educate you, make you more tolerant and understanding.
If the person who sued his school couldn't handle people with different views just for a day then I fear for him out there in the world.


...uh oh, I posted in SD

you can't sue a private Christian school for being Christian. You can sue a public government-funded school for being Christian, however. If you choose to go to a Christian school then you accept that you'll have to put up with such displays of Christian faith. If you choose to go to a public school, however, you shouldn't have to put up with things like that.

Originally Posted by Iron Man

I'm going to sound derisive when I say this, but I'm genuinely curious: how much of a burden is it to put up with a display of another person's Christian faith? Why should no-one have to put up with it?

no one should have to put up with it in a government-funded setting because that is a direct violation of a person's freedom of religion, as protected by the United States Constitution. The government is to remain secular and is to not respect any establishments of religion over any others. Giving special privileges to Christians (or any arbitrary religion) is disrespectful and offensive to anybody who isn't Christian.

holding a Christian prayer at a public school is exclusionary to all the students at that school who aren't Christians and who expect their government to respect this fact and their freedom to choose their own religion.

@Renee, below:

precisely. It should never have been an option.

I think the problem is that the school even allowed the option for a prayer during a school-sponsored event.

I agree that the option shouldn't have been considered in the first place, but I don't think the fact that it WAS considered is grounds for a case.

Originally Posted by Nyarlko

no one should have to put up with it in a government-funded setting because that is a direct violation of a person's freedom of religion, as protected by the United States Constitution.

Did the person have the power to walk out?

Originally Posted by Iron Man

But the alternative that you seem to be suggesting is that the school should have FORBIDDEN the students from praying of their own volition during their own ceremony, which as far as I can tell is a far more obvious and oppressive breach of the Establishment Clause.

it was not merely students praying of their own volition, it was an officially-sanctioned part of the graduation ceremony that the school specifically set time aside for.

Originally Posted by Double A

Did the person have the power to walk out?

of his own high school graduation?!

Sorry, I should have elaborated. Students praying of their own volition is totally legal however, a public school that is allowing prayer as an official part of the ceremony (regardless if students voted for it or not) is a violation.