Proud to be American?

Remember to be civil when talking about countries guys.
People can be very emotionally attached to their nation, insulting it can be quite incendiary. So be nice about it.

Originally Posted by MorbidDelight

Is it? There was always racism, always conformity, always violations of civil liberties, always intolerance against foreigners, always the desire to destroy the wilderness and nature in exchange for personal wealth, etc. The key difference is now America's industrialized. Granted, one had a far better chance of moving up in the pre-Civil War America, as industrialization had really not fully hit America (Yes, there was the Industrial Revolution, but I'm thinking more along the lines of the Second Industrial Revolution and urbanization). We are much more materialistic on a massive scale than they were, but that really started with the 1920s and 1950s.

These are problems that people face in pretty much every country, not just the U.S.

Needless to say, they are real issues but besides the point I was making.

Originally Posted by Radek

These are problems that people face in pretty much every country, not just the U.S.

Needless to say, they are real issues but besides the point I was making.

I never typed that they were US specific.

What was the point you were making? I interpreted it as you saying the US was better than it currently is now (adjusting things for the time periods in correlation with other countries being assumed).

Why yes. Yes I am proud to be America. (and so can you!)

But basically, I used to be on the "America awww hellz yeah" bandwagon, then I was on the "America sucks" wagon.

Now I'm on the "America is a great nation with problems that need to be fixed, but the great thing is that we can fix them without war" train.

The way I see it, yeah, America has flaws. But so does every other nation. Most of our flaws other nations have.

I know for a fact that Britain has far-right extremists because of a British friend of mine whining about some far-right British politicians. Y'know, just like America has far-right extremist politicians.

Other nations have economic issues (sure ours is bigger, but our nation is also a lot bigger than some nations.)

I am proud though of America because of the fact that even if America goes downhill, we can fix things peacefully, we don't have to go to war and kill hundreds of people to make it better. (anymore, a lot of nations are like that, but it's enough for me to single out America)

Although I spent more time in the U.S. than any other country, it should be understood from the get-go that I am a person who frequently moves across borders. In the last two decades, I have resided in over twelve different locales across five different countries. I am, by definition, a "rootless" person, with no strong sense of "home", "country", or "patriotism".

That said, I find patriotism and nationalism to inherently be problematic. Ideally, states and governments should be about ideologies, philosophies, and principles that people can get behind; in the modern world, however, countries, states, and governments seem to just be a bureaucratic system of loosely-imposed definitions and land. George Jean Nathan put it well: "Patriotism is an arbitrary veneration ofreal estate above principles." I think we should be pursuing ideals and principles instead of the confines of borders we just happened to be born within, and I think to believe that nations and governments are the manifestations of such ideals is an extremely naive and overly idealistic sentiment.

Originally Posted by MorbidDelight

As for why America's worse than other countries today, there's a pool of reasons. Crappy education system, crappy immigration system, the idolization of guns, crappy social welfare system, etc.

Man, again, you just described 75% of countries. There are problems with education, immigration, guns, welfare, etc in literally every country. How does any of that make the US any worse than any other country? I'd say the fact that we're a relatively free country, with a relatively high standard of living, with countless rags-to-riches success stories, where the immigration rate is leaps and bounds above the emigration rate, is more than enough evidence that we are a top country, if not the top country out there. I'm proud to be living here. And you know, unlike most countries, if I wanted to leave, I have more than enough opportunity and money to leave, but I, and millions of others choose not to.

To americans:

You know what, your country is good. The vast, vast majority of people have safe drinking water and food on their tables. You have universities, and a state funded education system.

Most countries don't have that. Mattj's assessment of '75% of countries are like that' is wrong, because 75% of countries would do anything to have an education system as good as yours (however bad you think it is), or a populace rich enough to be able to afford guns in order to idolise them.

I say this because I see a lot of anti-American hype by Americans, and I just feel you are underselling your countrie's achievements. A load of inexperienced religious colonists who prioritzed shoes during their first crossings built a country. And it wasn't another ethiopia. THAT IS AN ACHIEVEMEMT!!!!!

Just because a country is comparatively better than others doesn't mean it can't be scrutinized and critiqued thoroughly. Why should my country's past deeds diminish its current flaws?

Aside from my earlier point about how I think it's silly to be "proud" of the fact that you happened to be born in a particular place, there are many reasons why I think America's greatness is exaggerated. The ideals of this country are wonderful, but the actual people much less so.

-Given our material wealth, America is a stupid nation. Our student's mediocre performance compared to other developed nations is widely known.

-America's crime rates are much higher than most other developed nations. So are the incarceration rates. In fact, I believe I read that 1 in 100 Americans are currently in jail. Yet this is supposedly the land of the free.

-Many people will see this as a positive, but America's rate of religiosity is much higher than other developed nations. Unsurprisingly, America lags behind other developed nations in social justice issues like granting the right of marriage to homosexual couples. Far fewer Americans accept the theory of evolution than other developed nations.

-America is a fat country. While this obviously correlates with material wealth, this does not have to be the case. Canada has half as many fat people as America despite a similar standard of living. Plenty of wealthy nations boast lower rates of obesity than America.

Overall, is life awful in America? No--certainly not enough to compel me to leave. As I said, I'm grateful to have been born here, especially when the odds favor being born into a place like China.

But the rhetoric of patriotism is tired and obnoxious. "Countries" are non-sentient social constructs. I care about people; I don't give much of a damn about the glory of a country. If America ceased to exist, but I could still enjoy the same standard of living, it wouldn't really make a difference to me. When you really think about it, why should it?

Why is patriotism a virtue? It's because humans have a natural, maybe unavoidable drive to form groups; there is something about forming groups (in this case, based on nothing but geographical proximity) that provides us comfort, a sense of belonging. If you don't buy into the patriotic ideals, you are a threat to the group and you will be ostracized for it.

People are free to be proud of the US but personally I think it's not THE best place to live...but it's definitely in the top 10 so to speak

Originally Posted by Gamzee

Just because a country is comparatively better than others doesn't mean it can't be scrutinized and critiqued thoroughly. Why should my country's past deeds diminish its current flaws?

Yeah, however the quality of your country is something that you take for granted. I could rant for an hour about the problems in Britain, but at the end is somebody said 'I have magic tickets here that will allow you to magically swap lives and locations with one randomly-selected person", I'd say "no, I'm happy enough here, and where the hell did you get those tickets?"

I'm sure I had a point... Oh, yeah. I feel that people in all MEDCs (More Economically Developed Countries for those who haven't done GCSE geography) don't really appreciate the good things about their country. I'll admit your country has flaws (whoever you are), but if you're posting on these boards, you could be a lot worse off. People who couldn't be worse off are largely incapable of posting on these boards.

In all of human history, I can only think of one country that has managed to achieve perfection in government methods. Then they were invaded by china. They were Tibet. I may even be wrong in this case.

Also, Gamzee, why do you use the Ethiopian flag?

Sure, I have no doubt that there are people in America and Britain and Canada and whatnot who take for granted luxuries like buildings literally full of food that they can go and choose what to eat rather than having to find berries and trees. Some people take for granted indoor plumbing or may not appreciate that they live in a fairly free country and don't have to worry about being killed on the spot for speaking out against their government.

Sure, I'm proud of some things America has done like abolishing slavery (even if we were pretty late on that one), and helping Europe out during WW2. Regardless I think its silly to glorify a nation's past and try to justify its current problems by saying "yeah, well, you did nice things in the past."


Re my flag: I love smoking marijuana and the Ethopian flag is commonly associated with Rastafarians.

since I have had nothing to do with making the United States the place it is, good or bad, and I had nothing to do with the fact that my family lives here and I was therefore born here, I have nothing to be proud of. By and large, I think it's ridiculous to be proud of an entire nation—the United States has its merits and it also has some serious problems and I think it's somewhat ignorant to sum up the whole thing as "well sure it's not perfect but it's pretty good anyway."

we should be proud of accomplishments and disappointed at shortcomings on an individual basis.

What I don't understand is why people act like it is foolish to be proud of being from a certain country, but there is no problem by being ashamed of being from a certain country.

Maybe I've gotten the wrong impression considering I haven't read the whole thread. I would have read it all, but it looked like it was starting to become a "This is why America is evil" or a "My country is better than yours" ♥♥♥♥ throwing contest.

Originally Posted by Bill

Why is patriotism a virtue? It's because humans have a natural, maybe unavoidable drive to form groups; there is something about forming groups (in this case, based on nothing but geographical proximity) that provides us comfort, a sense of belonging. If you don't buy into the patriotic ideals, you are a threat to the group and you will be ostracized for it.

Nope. This is why Americans have been patriotic. Its a matter of survival. Support the group so we don't get stomped by the other guys.

Originally Posted by mattj

Nope. This is why Americans have been patriotic. Its a matter of survival. Support the group so we don't get stomped by the other guys.

mmm, patriotism. It's us versus them, right?

Japanese American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by mattj

Man, again, you just described 75% of countries. There are problems with education, immigration, guns, welfare, etc in literally every country. How does any of that make the US any worse than any other country? I'd say the fact that we're a relatively free country, with a relatively high standard of living, with countless rags-to-riches success stories, where the immigration rate is leaps and bounds above the emigration rate, is more than enough evidence that we are a top country, if not the top country out there. I'm proud to be living here. And you know, unlike most countries, if I wanted to leave, I have more than enough opportunity and money to leave, but I, and millions of others choose not to.

I was referring to the developed nations of the world. Obviously, America's doing better than 75% of the nations out there, but the fact remains that we are behind in many aspects when compared to countries such as Canada or Australia. You cannot deny this.

NCLB is setting up a strict caste system that will only become more evident with time, as well as failing to meet it's purpose.
Education Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. Can Learn From Other Countries' Education Systems - High School Notes (usnews.com)
Comparing Canada and the U.S. on Education - The Futures of School Reform - Education Week
America continues to fall behind with it's outdated education model.

COUNTLESS rags to riches stories? No. Just no. That plays into our crappy social welfare system; we offer the poor a check, but do we offer them any ways to actually rise up like a quality education that's very accessible? No. You cannot tell me that you think someone born in intercity Detroit and has to go to that horrid school system has even the slightest chance of moving up in the world. Really, much of it relates back to our outdated education model and how we distribute funding.

And how are you even going to say that any developed nation worships guns the way the US does?

Things like this make me feel deep shame.



I don't care about them not supporting Obama. I really don't care which politician people choose to misplace their faith in. What gets me is their reasoning and how widespread it is.

Originally Posted by mattj

Nope. This is why Americans have been patriotic. Its a matter of survival. Support the group so we don't get stomped by the other guys.

Maybe if we didn't divide ourselves into countries and actually shared resources evenly, that wouldn't happen . Forming groups in the first place causes that sort of aggression.

Even morally, I think patriotism is problematic. Even if you have to fight, it should be for justifiable reasons, not just because you're from of a particular country. How is that any different from one street gang protecting their interests from another? As far as I can tell, the same reasoning applies (loyalty to the group).

Originally Posted by MorbidDelight

I was referring to the developed nations of the world. Obviously, America's doing better than 75% of the nations out there, but the fact remains that we are behind in many aspects when compared to countries such as Canada or Australia. You cannot deny this.

If I'm in the top 25%, then why would I care that Canada and Australia may be nicer? Nicer to you, or someone else maybe, but I wouldn't trade where I am for anything. And the fact is, I could. I, and millions of others, have the opportunity and money to do so. But we like it here. Is that the case for Mexico, or India, or Pakistan, or 75+% of the countries out there? No. They want to flee those hellholes for us. Whoopdeedee, one country has a better education system, too bad they have restrictive laws concerning freedoms, or another country has a more productive economy, that's nice, too bad they have a broken judicial system. You cannot make the blanket statement that Canada or Australia have every single thing perfect and that America is some hellhole. We are an excellent country where we are free, and wealthy, and well taken care of.

Originally Posted by MorbidDelight

NCLB is setting up a strict caste system that will only become more evident with time, as well as failing to meet it's purpose.
Education Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. Can Learn From Other Countries' Education Systems - High School Notes (usnews.com)
Comparing Canada and the U.S. on Education - The Futures of School Reform - Education Week
America continues to fall behind with it's outdated education model.

No way! Our huge, diverse country of 300+million people spread across countless thousands of square miles has a lower average than a handful of tiny homogenous countries? I would never have suspected!

Originally Posted by psmag.com

United States Still No. 1?
Not all education experts agree that American schools are on the wrong path.
Dan Domenech, executive director of the American Association of School Administrators, said that contrary to what we always hear, American schools have never been better.
“I happen to be one of those people that very much is convinced that in spite of the issues we have in public education in America, it’s still the best school system in the world,” he said. “We are the standard.”
Domenech said that partly due to the American education system’s constant push for improvement, it’s easy to view the data pessimistically.
“Yes, we can point to the fact that the graduation rate is only 70 percent and we should be doing better,” he said. But “it’s not like we dropped from 80 percent. The graduation rate continues to grow year after year. Fifty years ago, the percentage of kids graduating from high school was maybe 30 or 40 percent.”
Domenech concedes that the test scores of some countries have surpassed those of the United States, such as Singapore, New Zealand and, yes, Finland.
But these countries are small and homogenous, he said.
“Do we want to compare Finland to one of our rich suburbs? … Let’s face it, some of the finest schools in the world are in our suburbs.”
As an example, Domenech cites Thomas Jefferson High School in Fairfax, Va., where he once served as superintendent. In December, for the second year in a row, U.S. News & World Report listed Jefferson High as the nation’s No. 1 public high school.
“Does Finland have a better high school than Thomas Jefferson? I doubt it,” he said.
What separates America from the rest of the world, Domenech said, is diversity.
“In Japan, all the students are Japanese,” he said. “In Fairfax, we had over 140 languages that were spoken. I didn’t even know that there were that many languages spoken in the world.”
Domenech said America’s educational success comes down largely to the country’s abundance of money.
With money, he said, American schools have been able to reduce class size, hire teachers at higher salaries, purchase sophisticated grading and attendance software and furnish classrooms with good computers.
Invariably, he said, the schools that fall behind are the ones filled with students who are poor.
“This isn’t brain surgery here,” he said. “The more wealth, the better the kids are going to do in school. If we want to close the achievement gap, we need to drive the money and the resources.”

What Are American Schools Doing Right?

Originally Posted by MorbidDelight

COUNTLESS rags to riches stories? No. Just no. That plays into our crappy social welfare system; we offer the poor a check, but do we offer them any ways to actually rise up like a quality education that's very accessible? No. You cannot tell me that you think someone born in intercity Detroit and has to go to that horrid school system has even the slightest chance of moving up in the world. Really, much of it relates back to our outdated education model and how we distribute funding.

Yes. Yes I can tell you just that.

Originally Posted by MorbidDelight

And how are you even going to say that any developed nation worships guns the way the US does?

Because, if you haven't noticed, our nation as a whole does not worship guns. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't own a gun. I might at some point in the future. The only people that I know that do own guns have them to hunt. I live in the rural Midwest, and yet I don't know a single person who owns a gun just to own a gun.