The Right to Education

Originally Posted by Pietro

No one would raise an eyebrow at the suggestion of free elementary and secondary school because those are "necessities"

I don't know how its done where you live, but 1st-12th grades are only "free" in the US because we have local taxes to pay for them. Its not just because they're necessities, its because we've already payed for them. Again, I don't know how its run up north, but at least down here universities usually only get a portion of their income from the government and most are for-profit organizations that can pretty much do whatever they want.

That being said, I live near the lowest tuition college in the state of Missouri and took a few semesters there before embarking on family and career and am very thankful to have a cheap college nearby.

And then, concerning whether or not secondary education is actually a necessity.

Originally Posted by mattj

Its not just because they're necessities, its because we've already payed for them.

it's paid for by taxes because it's deemed a necessity, just like public roads, fire departments, law enforcement, emergency medical services, etc.

yes

i wasn't disputing that they're necessities (although plenty of people have made it without highschool)

i was disputing that they're free

they're not

Originally Posted by mattj

yes

i wasn't disputing that they're necessities (although plenty of people have made it without highschool)

i was disputing that they're free

they're not

It definitely isn't free, no, but as opposed to one family forking out a lot to send one child to school, everyone in the community shells out a comparitively miniscule amount for the benefit of all students. It's a different kind of paying.

Calling it free couldn't be further from the truth, but it terms of how much you would personally pay to send your child to school, it's pretty darn cheap. Should be the same with college? Hell yes. But I say this as someone about to enter college, so forgive me for being slightly biased.

The only problem I see is how it's possible. If tuition rates remain the same, then taxes would increase to include university along with K-12. There's also a question of how much taxes should cover. Some students end up going to school for more than 10 years. Some end up switching majors or doing multiple of them. There should definitely be a limit somewhere.

Also, many colleges are essentially their own businsses. Shouldn't they have the right to operate however they want? As inconvenient as it is, being too expensive and cumbersome isn't a crime that infringes on rights. Any inclusion of university in taxes would end up leaving out the for-profits, in this case, as far as I understand it.

I'm not a huge fan that there is no student loan for a master's degree, yet students who fail and get to retake the year from an undergraduate degree, get an extra year's worth of money, its especially worse that my university which has a very high entry requirement and difficult courses will not allow you the retake the year if you fail (I'll assume the same for other top universities, they justify it from its competitiveness), so the people who are getting funded more by the student loans are not only those who fail but those who fail from easier courses, it's hardly an incentive to do well, or for those who are less well off to apply to an undergraduate degree at the top universities or just a master's degree later on.

Originally Posted by Double A

No, the point was that you're not screwed if you lack tertiary education. I don't even know why "success" is being brought into this. Like I said, you're shifting the issue from "I need a job" to "I want a particular job" which is good and all, but as Lysis demonstrated, not grounds for granting tertiary education as a right.

I'd also guess that Pie's career choice is not the only one that's so accepting.

Of course, you're not screwed. There's social assistance, there's disabilities, there's hundreds of little tax refunds for people. You can survive on a minimum wage job. But no one wants to just survive. Everyone wants to do the best they can in life, to provide as best they can for their families, to give as much as they can to the next generation.

I'm not shifting this from "I want a job" to "I want a particular job" I think I've done a fairly decent job of explaining a wide variety of jobs require tertiary education, and that it remains inaccessible to a large portion of the population. There are people who would love to be welders, but cannot afford to go to school to learn. There are people who'd love to be a plumber, but cannot afford to go to school to learn. Ontario is in a bleak state right now because the province is in dire need of skilled trades workers and the vast majority of the force will be retiring within the next ten to twenty years.

Tertiary education is, by and large, the only means of accessing a large variety of jobs even if it means having a degree unrelated to your career choice. Police officers, for example, do not need a degree at all but will always choose someone who has a degree over someone who does not. It's not required at all within the force nor will you be tested on what you learned in your Art History major. But they want you to demonstrate that you will go the extra mile, that you'll demonstrate an interest in bettering yourself and they are not the only employers doing this. It is becoming more and more common within the job industry for employers to look for and choose over others people with tertiary education.

Rights are rights because they're about making things equal for everyone. In a world where everyone has equal opportunity, everyone can become what they want or at the very least what suits their skills and talents within life. That is what I (and everyone should) want and strive for: a society where a man makes himself, where his life is not decided for him because of circumstances beyond his control and/or severely inhibited for them in the future.

I'd also guess that Pie's career choice is not the only one that's so accepting.

You'd guess, but provide no examples nor cite anything else. Just guess. That's good. Thank you for your assumptions. I am sure they will feed a generation and nurture their growth into giants who will crush Englishmen and grind their bones to make their bread.

@mattj:

I don't think anyone here believes those things are free. I assume they understand that taxes pay for those services and mean "free" in the sense that they're covered by taxes.

i wasn't disputing that they're necessities (although plenty of people have made it without highschool)

Plenty of people have made it without high school? In 2012 one might be able to survive on a low wage job or two, but if we're talking about success, you're going to have to convince me this is possible for plenty of people.

The barriers to entry are way too high for most high school dropouts to land jobs that pay rewarding salaries, since most of those jobs require college degrees.

Originally Posted by Viajero de la Galaxia

Plenty of people have made it without high school? In 2012 one might be able to survive on a low wage job or two, but if we're talking about success, you're going to have to convince me this is possible for plenty of people.

I already did. I linked to an article that described 8 people who are now multi-millionares who either dropped out of highschool, or had limited or no college. Heck, 1/2 the supervisors, including my supervisor, at the factory I work at never graduated from highschool. I realize that many highschool drop outs have it rough, but many don't. At least for the people that I know, in my tiny circle of influence, how successful a person tends to be has less to do with the lack of access to free education, and much more to do with how much time, and energy, and effort they put into their work. Jobs and Gates and Branson, and even my supervisor are all examples of that. In their early years they were all absolutely consumed with their work.

On the other side of the coin, I have two friends who took that whole free-money-for-college-if-you-get-laid-off deal, and completely screwed around and squandered all their time and free funds and got absolutely nowhere. Free and easy access to higher education did squat for them.

Me, on the other hand, although i did fine in school and took a few semesters of college, I have exactly what I want out of life right here and now and am completely happy with where I'm headed. I neither need, nor want further, formal education (which drives my Father who finally got around to graduating from college after dropping out in the 8th grade, and my Uncle who has a PHD in education NUTS).