Calendar Awards Forum Leaders List Members List FAQ
Advertisement

Reply
$ LinkBack Thread Tools
 
  #1 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 06:56 AM
Awakening Awakening is a male Australia Awakening is offline
Hylian
Join Date: Jun 2010
View Posts: 605
Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

I was having a discussion with my family about Australian aborigines, who receive certain benefits because of their race.

Aborigines apparently receive health benefits, government job opportunities and special ceremonies when they complete their education.

I argued that, it is inherently a racist act, to treat an individual differently based on elements of their identity that have no factor in their success as individuals.

I'm sure there are similar arguments made in other countries about minorities.

Currently, the government is running a program that informs all Australians about the "gap" between life expectancy of Aborigines vs Non-Aboriginal Australians.

I personally feel, this is a form of racist propaganda, that actually enforces the belief that Aborigines are inferior to white people with their health.

The fact is, an aborigine bought up in the same conditions as a white person would have the same health conditions as that white person. It has nothing to do with their race, it has everything to do with living conditions.

Aborigines mostly live in rural australia, which has limited health facilities and cultural problems with alcohol and drugs. But that does not mean an Aborigine in the city, living a middle class life is the same as these.

Unfortunately, because the "gap" argument is made based on race, that Aborigines IS classed as having a serious risk of health problems, even though logically, he doesn't.

Lets say, hypothetically

60% of Aborigines get sick and die at 50-60 THEREFORE Aborigines have a low life expectancy. - doesn't SOUND racist does it? Actually it is. Apply the same principle to drinkers:

60% Percentage of Aboriginal Australian drinkers experiencing some alcohol-related harm (Aboriginal Alcohol consumption - Aboriginal Health, Communities) THEREFORE Aborigines abuse alcohol.

^^^^ THAT IS RACIST - it is not because they are aborigine that they have alcohol problems, it is because aborigines live in areas where alcohol problems are high, therefore, the previous generalization about health is also racist.

These are good intentions, trying to highligh health disparity, but the fact race has nothing to do with it, but IS highlighted, make the perception of aborigines as unhealthy. This makes it a racist generalization.

--------

In short:

Do you think, that categorizing people's success, health, education or other non-race related statistic and BASING that on race is racist?

If 70% of people with blonde hair were found to suffer more sick days then anyone else - is that grounds not to hire someone? If the government told you that, it would certainly reinforce the stereotype.

I believe governments use race as a means to propogate inequality, rather then catgorizing people based on what truly effects them.

This is well-intentioned racism, and it makes me sick. Because I don't believe a healthy Aborigine should be turned away from a job after an interview, because the bored saw statistically Aborigines get sick more. Despite him being healthy, hes aborigine and the statistics say he will get sick.

See the logic? Its disgusting:

Discuss.
Last Edited by Awakening; 02-05-2012 at 06:57 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 07:41 AM
Yoshirama Australia Yoshirama is offline
Sage of Wisdom
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia
View Posts: 1,022
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

The government would be better to treat them life everyone else. not give them extra money because in fact they are just like us with a different colored skin.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 09:31 AM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
May those who accept their fate be granted happiness...
Send a message via Skype™ to John
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
View Posts: 22,123
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Save that aboriginals experience "negative" racism which makes it harder for them to get jobs. So this is simply an attempt to counteract that.

What's more, there's nothing racist about pointing out that they die younger or that they're more prone to alcoholism. Now, saying that they all *must* die younger or be alcoholics is racist, but that's not the same thing, and I think you know that.

So perhaps we could argue reality, not straw men?
__________________
...Those who defy it, glory!

Public Key ID: 057420A1
Last Edited by John; 02-05-2012 at 09:33 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
5 people liked this post: Ahluk, Armillary, Double A, Malia, Scarrrrr
  #4 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 10:58 AM
Awakening Awakening is a male Australia Awakening is offline
Hylian
Join Date: Jun 2010
View Posts: 605
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Save that aboriginals experience "negative" racism which makes it harder for them to get jobs. So this is simply an attempt to counteract that.
Does it counter act that when the government is outwardly telling people "Aborigines are more likely to die early, become ill etc?"

"Aborigines need special awards for achievement, because in general they don't do so well"

Hearing these sort of generalizations from a government, doesn't that make non-aborigines think "hmm the government says all this, so why should I employ one if they are only going to get sick, or are generally less educated ?"

I think the good intentions (and they are good intentions) provoke racist generalizations, rather then equality.

You can't try to counteract racism with reverse racism, I mean when do you stop the reverse racism? How do you decide when everyone has become equal and don't require the help? If a group of people grow up through the generations expecting special treatment, how will they react when it is eventually taken away when they are deemed "equal?"
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 12:41 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
May those who accept their fate be granted happiness...
Send a message via Skype™ to John
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
View Posts: 22,123
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakening View Post
Does it counter act that when the government is outwardly telling people "Aborigines are more likely to die early, become ill etc?"
What's racist about that? It's true. The reasons it's true are varied, but one of the big ones is the mass discrimination against them that makes it harder for them to live healthy lives.

Quote:
"Aborigines need special awards for achievement, because in general they don't do so well"
Save that no-one, save people like yourself, are saying that.

The government is saying, quite simply, this: That due to a history of severe oppression an aborigine who works twice as hard as anyone else can expect to do half as well (or whatever) and this is patently unfair, so we will attempt to correct this.

What's more, the largest result of the past, and current, racism? Poverty. People born below the poverty line are almost guaranteed to spend their entire life there, no matter how hard they work. However, as soon as they rise above the poverty line, the odds of them or their children falling back below it drop astronomically.

So, give them "unearned"* money and jobs, 'cause that means that their kids will do well without any "crutches", and the better the next generation does, the harder it will be to be racist.

Quote:
Hearing these sort of generalizations from a government, doesn't that make non-aborigines think "hmm the government says all this, so why should I employ one if they are only going to get sick, or are generally less educated ?"
People think that already. If they didn't, there'd be no reason for affirmative action.
What AA does is provide an incentive for businesses to ignore their racism.

Quote:
I think the good intentions (and they are good intentions) provoke racist generalizations, rather then equality.

You can't try to counteract racism with reverse racism, I mean when do you stop the reverse racism? How do you decide when everyone has become equal and don't require the help? If a group of people grow up through the generations expecting special treatment, how will they react when it is eventually taken away when they are deemed "equal?"
It's easy enough to know when it's no longer needed, look at the same statistics that showed it was needed. Once racism vanishes so too does the need for AA.

And your insultingly condescending view of Aborigines aside, these aren't "unearned" rewards, where taking them away will leave useless lumps of people. They're given to people who have worked hard and know how to work hard, but who, due to no fault of their own, started off a few miles behind everyone else at the race.

*See above paragraph for why that's racist nonsense.
__________________
...Those who defy it, glory!

Public Key ID: 057420A1
Last Edited by John; 02-05-2012 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 01:01 PM
interestingdrug interestingdrug is a male England interestingdrug is offline
the one that you took
Join Date: Jan 2012
View Posts: 1,769
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Usually 'positive racism' is the term normal racists use to thinly veil their bigotry. A common example on my soil would be "Oh, but they wouldn't be arrested because they're Muslim" which is far too commonly said. I've deduced that most of the time it's a mix of ignorance and tabloid persuasion, but oftentimes people are just plain racists and so adopt a stance of victimisation to sugar coat it.

The only way to really eliminate racism is to make it a nonissue, but that's a long way off at the very best, and at the worst it's an impossibility. Human nature is hostile and egocentric.
Reply With Quote
1 person liked this post: Armillary
  #7 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 01:40 PM
Sharia for the UK Sharia for the UK is a male United States Sharia for the UK is offline
Hate my life, love myself
Join Date: May 2005
Location: CoCo County
View Posts: 4,842
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Save that aboriginals experience "negative" racism which makes it harder for them to get jobs. So this is simply an attempt to counteract that.

What's more, there's nothing racist about pointing out that they die younger or that they're more prone to alcoholism. Now, saying that they all *must* die younger or be alcoholics is racist, but that's not the same thing, and I think you know that.

So perhaps we could argue reality, not straw men?
Should we tax Jewish people for being Jewish or Asian because they live longer and make more money on average?

Going up North always brings negative glimpses of Natives, they all live in slums despite government money. The locals have even worse opinions on them. I understand that they used to be where I am now and were forced up there and the lands they have now aren't really good for much, but I think we are subsudizing these people and there's no progress or gains being made.

I'm not saying we shouldn't help these people out but not because of what their ancestors went through, otherwise I'm entitled to quite a bit from England and Russia. They and all poor people need to be given employment options, but they don't deserve a penny for free just because of who they are.
__________________
You don't cure cancer by feeding it
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 02:11 PM
Coconut Water United States Coconut Water is offline
Significantly more hydrated than you.
Wii U ID: Blizzaga

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Santos
View Posts: 35,524
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

^ Agreed. I live right by a reservation, and anyone with a bit of Native American in their blood get free dental and maybe even schooling (haven't looked into that part). It ticks me off because I can't afford to see a dentist and probably won't be able to do so for several more years.
__________________

???

Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 03:39 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
May those who accept their fate be granted happiness...
Send a message via Skype™ to John
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
View Posts: 22,123
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite and Deigh View Post
Should we tax Jewish people for being Jewish or Asian because they live longer and make more money on average?
Everyone is taxed for making more money than others, and the longer you live the more you pay in taxes.

Quote:
Going up North always brings negative glimpses of Natives, they all live in slums despite government money. The locals have even worse opinions on them. I understand that they used to be where I am now and were forced up there and the lands they have now aren't really good for much, but I think we are subsudizing these people and there's no progress or gains being made.
Probably because they're forced to either leave their community to get a job or live in poverty for their entire life, and leaving their community is more likely to end up with them still in poverty than not, given the culture shock of moving to a big city and the aforementioned racism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecora View Post
^ Agreed. I live right by a reservation, and anyone with a bit of Native American in their blood get free dental and maybe even schooling (haven't looked into that part). It ticks me off because I can't afford to see a dentist and probably won't be able to do so for several more years.
So rather than petitioning for everyone to have free dental, you want to drag others down into a situation that you admit you hate? If you can't have it then no-one can? Really?
__________________
...Those who defy it, glory!

Public Key ID: 057420A1
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 04:46 PM
Double A Double A is a male New Zealand Double A is offline
The "he" in Catastrophe
Send a message via Skype™ to Double A
Wii U ID: 80espiay

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Grumble Volcano
View Posts: 14,331
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

I'm a bit ignorant on the subject, but is the "positive racism" towards Australian Aborigines analogous to that towards the Maori of New Zealand?
__________________


A Fedora || "Rex" || Bored? || PM me to join the Mario Kart 8/Smash Bros. Skype group
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 04:58 PM
Great White North Great White North is a male Prussia Great White North is offline
We are criminals!
Send a message via Skype™ to Great White North
Steam ID: Septemvile
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
View Posts: 4,554
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
So rather than petitioning for everyone to have free dental, you want to drag others down into a situation that you admit you hate? If you can't have it then no-one can? Really?
While I think we can agree that it would be better for everyone to have free dental, to say that "Oh well, we don't have enough money for everyone to have it, so let's distinguish based on ethnicity" is patently worse than no one getting free dental at all.

We live in a society where we have a government that is supposed to provide a base standard of living for everyone, and the sooner we stop thinking "Oh ♥♥♥♥, dem injuns are poor" and start thinking "Oh ♥♥♥♥, those poor people are poor" the better.

It's an important distinction to make because we shouldn't be basing our financial aid to less fortunate sectors of society on ethnicity, but rather on the basis of circumstance.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lois Bujold
"Your Father calls you to His Court. You need not pack; you go garbed in glory where you stand. He waits eagerly by His palace doors to welcome you, and has prepared a place at His high table by His side, in the company of the great-souled, honoured, and best beloved."
Reply With Quote
4 people liked this post: Coconut Water, Flames of Valor, Raptor Buddha, Sam Nornal
  #12 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 05:02 PM
John John is a male Canada John is offline
May those who accept their fate be granted happiness...
Send a message via Skype™ to John
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
View Posts: 22,123
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great White North View Post
While I think we can agree that it would be better for everyone to have free dental, to say that "Oh well, we don't have enough money for everyone to have it, so let's distinguish based on ethnicity" is patently worse than no one getting free dental at all.
How so? Surely it's better that some have it, rather than none?

Quote:
We live in a society where we have a government that is supposed to provide a base standard of living for everyone, and the sooner we stop thinking "Oh ♥♥♥♥, dem injuns are poor" and start thinking "Oh ♥♥♥♥, those poor people are poor" the better.

It's an important distinction to make because we shouldn't be basing our financial aid to less fortunate sectors of society on ethnicity, but rather on the basis of circumstance.
I partially agree, there should be far more put into helping the poor, but that ignores the issue of racism, which still exists and has a surprisingly powerful influence on employment rates.
__________________
...Those who defy it, glory!

Public Key ID: 057420A1
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 05:36 PM
Great White North Great White North is a male Prussia Great White North is offline
We are criminals!
Send a message via Skype™ to Great White North
Steam ID: Septemvile
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
View Posts: 4,554
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
How so? Surely it's better that some have it, rather than none?
Because it propagates stereotypes, encourages bitterness, and is counteractive to the principles of equality. Morally bleh, so to speak.

And while yes, it's statistically better to be paying out to some rather than none, using that as a justification only propagates the current system, which needs to be changed.


Quote:
I partially agree, there should be far more put into helping the poor, but that ignores the issue of racism, which still exists and has a surprisingly powerful influence on employment rates.
Racism will exist as long as people are different. That's indisputable. The only real way to combat racism and keep it on the fringes of society is to educate people. You can't force people to see it differently, you can only make the truth available and ensure there are necessary mechanisms in place to prosecute proven hate mongers.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lois Bujold
"Your Father calls you to His Court. You need not pack; you go garbed in glory where you stand. He waits eagerly by His palace doors to welcome you, and has prepared a place at His high table by His side, in the company of the great-souled, honoured, and best beloved."
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 05:46 PM
Double A Double A is a male New Zealand Double A is offline
The "he" in Catastrophe
Send a message via Skype™ to Double A
Wii U ID: 80espiay

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Grumble Volcano
View Posts: 14,331
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
The only real way to combat racism and keep it on the fringes of society is to educate people.
Just randomly shooting here, but isn't that what they're doing by making it easier for these various disadvantaged groups to study?
__________________


A Fedora || "Rex" || Bored? || PM me to join the Mario Kart 8/Smash Bros. Skype group
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 07:47 PM
Great White North Great White North is a male Prussia Great White North is offline
We are criminals!
Send a message via Skype™ to Great White North
Steam ID: Septemvile
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
View Posts: 4,554
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double A View Post
Just randomly shooting here, but isn't that what they're doing by making it easier for these various disadvantaged groups to study?
I was talking about educating people in general about the idiocy of racist stereotypes. Not about educating disadvantaged groups of people.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lois Bujold
"Your Father calls you to His Court. You need not pack; you go garbed in glory where you stand. He waits eagerly by His palace doors to welcome you, and has prepared a place at His high table by His side, in the company of the great-souled, honoured, and best beloved."
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 08:49 PM
Double A Double A is a male New Zealand Double A is offline
The "he" in Catastrophe
Send a message via Skype™ to Double A
Wii U ID: 80espiay

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Grumble Volcano
View Posts: 14,331
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

But, particularly in the case of New Zealand, people HAVE gotten over negative racism. The issue is that these people have been disadvantaged in the past and that this disadvantage has carried over into the future.
__________________


A Fedora || "Rex" || Bored? || PM me to join the Mario Kart 8/Smash Bros. Skype group
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 09:34 PM
Awakening Awakening is a male Australia Awakening is offline
Hylian
Join Date: Jun 2010
View Posts: 605
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
Everyone is taxed for making more money than others, and the longer you live the more you pay in taxes.
see this is the point.

why can't governments just give benifits to people who are not well off?

why do they have to specify a race? Some Aborigines in Australia are perfectly well off, one of our most famous runners was Aborigine, does she have the same life expectancy as other aborigines?

Statistically, she does, because the studies focus on aborigines. But realistically, she doesn't because her living conditions are better.

Closing the gap between poverty of specific groups needs to be done by rectifying living conditions of areas, irrespective of race.

Individuals need help, NOT groups of people.

---

Again, you haven't told me, how do Aborigines react when eventually they are deemed "equal" and no longer need benifits? When in fact, they have been brought up knowing they will get those benifits?

Another thing about the racism, is that Aboriginal communities get punished by having welfare checks taken away if the kids don't go to school - why isn't this a rule accross the board? It's racist to target one race community with punishment or assistance that is not applied to everyone else.

---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double A View Post
I'm a bit ignorant on the subject, but is the "positive racism" towards Australian Aborigines analogous to that towards the Maori of New Zealand?
Do the maoris get special treatment specifically because they are maoris?

Often, government jobs in Australia ask for wether someone is aboriginal descent.

I think this is racist, because they put this question there so they can employ a certain ratio of aboriginals.

Instead of basing things on merit, they are essentially giving a handicap advantage to a certain race.

I applaud the goal, but doesn't this act in the opposite direction?

A non-aborigine will see this as "Aborigines are generally hopeless, that is why the government needs to give them a handicap advantage"

This re-inforces stereotyping, rather then naturally cmbating racism through equal rights through unfair dismissal laws, descrimination laws etc.

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
I partially agree, there should be far more put into helping the poor, but that ignores the issue of racism, which still exists and has a surprisingly powerful influence on employment rates.
Why does it effect emplyment rates I wonder?

Lets say your an ignorant person, and lets face it, most people are.

Would you employ an Aborigine, knowing full well that they require (generally) constant government assistance and have been brought up with certain benefits and the government tells you that they have a lower life expectancy?

No, of course not, because that is a racist generalization. Indians are not ALL like that, but the government says they are and they need help. Some indians are probably better then most whites, race is irrelevant.

To combat racism, you make laws against NOT hiring somone more qualified based on their race. You give free legal aid to anyone wanting to sue for racial descrimination. You DON'T apply non-race related assistance to specific races.

It only reinforces the stereotype.
Last Edited by Awakening; 02-05-2012 at 09:35 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 09:35 PM
Ysionris The Byzantine Empire Ysionris is offline
Cloud Cuckoolander

Join Date: Oct 2009
View Posts: 1,849
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakening View Post
why can't governments just give benifits to people who are not well off?

why do they have to specify a race? Some Aborigines in Australia are perfectly well off, one of our most famous runners was Aborigine, does she have the same life expectancy as other aborigines?
I'm not very well-versed on this subject so I may be wrong, but wouldn't this just be trading racism for class warfare? O_o;
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Sagan
People are not stupid. They believe things for reasons. The last way for skeptics to get the attention of bright, curious, intelligent people is to belittle or condescend or to show arrogance toward their beliefs.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 09:41 PM
Awakening Awakening is a male Australia Awakening is offline
Hylian
Join Date: Jun 2010
View Posts: 605
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysionris View Post
I'm not very well-versed on this subject so I may be wrong, but wouldn't this just be trading racism for class warfare? O_o;
Most countries don't suffer from a caste system. And you can't generally tell two well dressed working class vs business class people like you can tell a black person from a white person.

But please elaborate on your point?

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double A View Post
Just randomly shooting here, but isn't that what they're doing by making it easier for these various disadvantaged groups to study?
Nah, they are making it worse because of that.

They are re-inforcing the "difference" between two races, by favouring one with welfare.

Instead, they should promote anyone who achieves well and prosecute those who descriminate based on race.

Racism, as an irrational belief that white and black people are different, needs to be rooted out with education as the above poster said.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-05-2012, 10:02 PM
Great White North Great White North is a male Prussia Great White North is offline
We are criminals!
Send a message via Skype™ to Great White North
Steam ID: Septemvile
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
View Posts: 4,554
Re: Positive Racism - How good intentions lead to stereotyping/racism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double A View Post
But, particularly in the case of New Zealand, people HAVE gotten over negative racism. The issue is that these people have been disadvantaged in the past and that this disadvantage has carried over into the future.
Which is the crux of the issue.

Distinction should not be made among disadvantaged people based on ethnicity. There shouldn't be those types of affirmative action policies. There should just be highly funded policies that apply to everyone in the country, not policies that apply to this minority or that minority.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lois Bujold
"Your Father calls you to His Court. You need not pack; you go garbed in glory where you stand. He waits eagerly by His palace doors to welcome you, and has prepared a place at His high table by His side, in the company of the great-souled, honoured, and best beloved."
Reply With Quote
1 person liked this post: Flames of Valor
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Advertisement

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:37 PM.

Copyright © 2014 Zelda Universe - Privacy Statement -