Sex, Gender and Identification

Originally Posted by Lysis

she has insulted me and every other transgendered person on this forum. If you think that's nothing then you are just as guilty of insult as she is.

Perhaps in your eyes it was poorly worded, but I think her intention was hardly to insult you.

I believe that gender is an oppressive, patriarchal social construct just like Tabby does and I also believe it should have never existed because it was created to make man the default template for humanity. If you somehow feel insulted by my beliefs... well, frankly, I don't care.

I know what I believe is just and good.
Now keep the SD ♥♥♥♥ in SD.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

If there was no concept of gender, then there would be no intolerance at all.

Negative event X wouldn't happen if Y was removed is hardly a justification for doing anything like what you're proposing, if the same result can be achieved by removing Z (in this case, intolerance).

Gender is nothing more than the actions/behaviours that are typically associated with each sex (if I'm not mistaken). Removing the concept of "gender" would mean forcing all men and women to act in the same way (so that there are NO actions typically associated with men and/or women).

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

You transgendered, Lysis? I didn't know that.

indeed.

Originally Posted by Calypso

Perhaps in your eyes it was poorly worded, but I think her intention was hardly to insult you.

I don't give a sh*t what her intention was. Intention is irrelevant. At the risk of someone saying "Godwin's law!", Hitler had all the best intentions when he started the Holocaust.

it's not merely that what she said was "poorly worded", it's that what she said was intolerant and discriminatory.

You mind elaborating a bit?

Originally Posted by Tallgeese

I believe that gender is an oppressive, patriarchal social construct just like Tabby does and I also believe it should have never existed because it was created to make man the default template for humanity. If you somehow feel insulted by my beliefs... well, frankly, I don't care.

I know what I believe is just and good.
Now keep the SD ♥♥♥♥ in SD.

and once again I'm not defending gender roles or expectations. I'm defending identity. If you believe a person doesn't have the right to their identity then you are a terrible person.

Gender would not exist if stereotypes of sexes had not been adopted. You're identifying with a social construct of what male or female is supposed to be.

Strewth, I may as well speak to a brick wall.

Originally Posted by Lysis

well then, I don't care about your identity either. Instead of treating you based on who you actually are, I'll treat you the way I want to based on my own opinions of who I think you should be.

does that sound right?

Nope. Not at all.
You make it sound as if there are no identifying features of people besides gender. Which is wrong.

I'm defending a person's right to their identity. I'm defending people like Red and her right to consider herself as much a woman as you probably consider yourself, regardless of the physical shape of the body she was born with.

People can have an identity without gender. What I want is to get rid of stupid labels.

trying to fit people into gender roles and gender expectations leads to inequality and intolerance, but gender identity does no such thing. Instead, refusing to recognize a person's identity, that is intolerance.

Then there should be no "gender roles". I have been trying to say that for a long time.

people don't have control over their identity. It's not something they invent, it's something that is a part of who they are.

I know. But my original point is I do not like this situation. We would be a lot better off if we DIDN'T have gender as a concept.

I get comments quite often about how strange it is for a woman to be so interested in military history and all that. People express their shock when I tell them about how ♥♥♥♥ German tanks were in the Second World War (♥♥♥♥ing popular media and their factually incorrect documentaries). In my ideal word, it would not be considered outside of my gender role to be interested in such things.
There would be no alignment to what you identify as and what you should and shouldn't do.


Oh, and Lysis, I was not attempting to insult you. You have SERIOUSLY misunderstood what I have been trying to say.

Hello, my dears.

So I moved this thread over from the GCC to the SD because things were getting a bit heated in a thread that was labeled "fun". You guys can discuss your stuff over here.

Please note, though, that I'm aware that things seem to have taken a personal turn for some members; I don't want to stifle discussion, peeps, so I ask that people cool off before continuing to post, k?

Mods: keep an eye on this thread (well, you have to with all threads I know shut up lol but in particular, this, because of what I mentioned up there ^^^). Please.

Okay, go go go.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Nope. Not at all.
You make it sound as if there are no identifying features of people besides gender. Which is wrong.

and you make it sound like gender identity doesn't exist, where in reality it is an important part of who many people are.

People can have an identity without gender. What I want is to get rid of stupid labels.

and I'm not here to talk about labels. I've said nothing about labels. I'm here to defend identity.

Then there should be no "gender roles". I have been trying to say that for a long time.

and I agree. Once again, I'm not defending roles or expectations.

I know. But my original point is I do not like this situation. We would be a lot better off if we DIDN'T have gender as a concept.

I get comments quite often about how strange it is for a woman to be so interested in military history and all that. People express their shock when I tell them about how ♥♥♥♥ German tanks were in the Second World War (♥♥♥♥ing popular media and their factually incorrect documentaries). In my ideal word, it would not be considered outside of my gender role to be interested in such things.
There would be no alignment to what you identify as and what you should and shouldn't do.

I understand that and I agree, but you are clearly not understanding what I've been pointing out this whole time. There's a difference between wanting to get rid of the oppressive expectations that gender roles and the gender binary force upon society and not recognizing a person for who they identify themselves as. The former is an important step towards equality and tolerance whereas the latter is a huge step backwards and is just plainly insulting.

I think saying that gender identification is a bunch of bull♥♥♥♥ is like telling a gay person that sexuality is a bunch of bull♥♥♥♥.

Furthermore, even if you felt that way, I think voicing such an opinion is as offensive as referring to someone who went through an operation as their original sex, even though they kindly ask that you do not. Yeah, you can say it. You're still a dick.

Basically, I should be allowed to identify as a "male" in both sex and gender if I so wish.

The concept of "gender" is waaaaay too maliable. What makes someone identify with the masculine or feminine gender anyways? I think most everyone has traits which overlap in every way possible.

Quite frankly, in an ideal world, we wouldn't have to identify by such silly bull♥♥♥♥ like gender, sex, or even race. But since we love to label ourselves, we're gonna do it.

Personally, I don't care what gender a person wants to identify themselves by. He/she/xe or whatever is a human being in my eyes. If you want to get rid of things, just remind people that culture and who we are not only as individuals, but as people comes from place, religious beliefs, upbringing, history, and geography. What you were born with is pretty irrelevant but if you want to take pride in it, whatevers. Just don't go overboard with it.

Originally Posted by Dovahkiin

Nope. Not at all.
You make it sound as if there are no identifying features of people besides gender. Which is wrong.

When did Lysis say anything of the sort?

People can have an identity without gender. What I want is to get rid of stupid labels.

Then what you want to get rid of is gender stereotypes.
That's not the same thing as gender.

The human brain seems to have part of it that says "You are gender x". This part is distinct from the one that says "You are sex y".

Neither of those parts say that men act differently than women.

Then there should be no "gender roles". I have been trying to say that for a long time.

See above: You want to get rid of the stereotypes, not gender in-and-of-itself which is distinct from those stereotypes.

Your posts right now make about as much sense as saying that you want to get rid of the concept of skin colour because of racism.

Skin colour is a fact. It will always be there.
Racism is not, and can be gotten rid of.

Actually, your posts read a bit closer to wanting to get rid of, say, African American culture so as to get rid of racism. Which is less throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it is throwing out the baby but keeping the tub full.

Oh, and Lysis, I was not attempting to insult you. You have SERIOUSLY misunderstood what I have been trying to say.

I don't know that she has.

You said that you don't care what gender someone identifies as, but that you do care about what sex organs they have.

This is hard to see as anything but a statement condemning trans people.

Originally Posted by Calypso

Perhaps in your eyes it was poorly worded, but I think her intention was hardly to insult you.

As the (very sarcastic) saying goes: "Intent, it's f***ing magic!"

What someone intended to do rarely changes how much a statement hurts or offends. 50 years ago someone with the best of intentions might well have said "You're a credit to your race, boy." Doesn't make it any less insulting that it's supposed to be a compliment.

Originally Posted by Lysis

There's a difference between wanting to get rid of the oppressive expectations that gender roles and the gender binary force upon society and not recognizing a person for who they identify themselves as.

Originally Posted by John

Then what you want to get rid of is gender stereotypes.
That's not the same thing as gender.

Yes, I think I'd have to agree with this point - we ought to make a very clear distinction between gender identity and gender role. Most people do seem to have an ingrained sense of their gender, and this may or may not coincide with their physical sex. I don't think there's any inherent harm in having such an identity, any more than one may harmed by identifying as bisexual. I think describing oneself as a particular gender is not a limit or a constraint, but rather a simple acknowledgement of who we are - or rather, a part of who we are.

On the other hand, gender roles (and particularly the idea of the fixed gender binary) have far more potential to be harmful, since they are woefully inadequate to describe the wonderfully diverse range of human personalities.

So, I don't post in serious discussion often and you'll probably all tell me why I'm an idiot in a second here, but when can people start being people instead of saying all this "I do these things so I indentify with this gender"

All I see on this site is either people

A) Saying there should be no preconceived notion of what a male or female usually does

or

B) I identify as a woman even though I'm a man because I like smooth music and like to knit.

and often enough I've seen the same people say both things, which I really don't understand.

Maybe some one a whole lot smarter can tell me once they're done calling me an idiot

Hold on, so my basic question is: if gender roles/stereotypes never existed, how would people know what "gender" they identify as? How can you feel like a male if you don't know how "males are supposed to act" and such things?

Part of the reason I think people find it so offensive to say that is because it's such an ingrained part of culture. But what if there were no such thing as referring to oneself as male or female (or both or neither)? My point is, you're you. I've always associated "male and female" to one's physical sex, and that is not because I want to piss people off or be intolerant of anything, it's because that's what makes the most sense to me. If the notion of gender never existed, there would be no fuss about this.

Now I'm not trying to disrespect anyone and I'm not attacking anyone, so before anyone gets all ragey on me just calm down. I'm honestly trying to understand what could be behind gender other than "this is how this gender acts, so I feel like this gender".

As Tabby said, if you don't feel right with your body, you can switch. And then your physical sex will match how you feel.

I just don't understand why a "gender identity" exists at all. I'm not condemning people for feeling out-of-place in their own body, I'm just saying "to me, words like male and female refer to physical structure, not how you behave".

I'm just having real trouble understanding how gender identity could exist hypothetically if there were no gender roles.

I'm aware why they do exist, but I am talking hypothetically as if stereotypes never existed and the idea of a "gender" could not possibly have to do with a gender role. I'm aware it's impossible for the idea of gender to disappear.

I think that's what Tabby was trying to say-- hypothetically.


EDIT: I'm tired and probably wrote this badly and will probably regret it but eh

I just wanna one quick thing; just a thought. I'm rather uneducated when it comes to transgender rights and identity so I'll just stick to what I know-

There is no such thing as gender stereotypes. Genders are stereotypes. When you're thinking "feminine" and "masculine", you're thinking about gender. Those two general stereotypes that branch out into much smaller stereotypes for either sex is what gender is at its core.

Lysis, you're taking this way too seriously just because you're transgender.
There is a difference between gender identities and gender stereotypes, which I don't think Dovahkiin is even aware of. There's nothing wrong with genders, just their stereotypes.
I am a male, but I don't exactly follow masculine stereotypes all the time.. But I still am a male. Am I right?

Now, everyone, just cool it.