Abortion

I would never tell a woman, or anyone else, what they can and cannot do with their own body.

Originally Posted by Great White North

It IS rather a black and white issue. You either consider the fetus a person or you do not.

Aye.

By definition the fetus would have to be a person to be called a parasite, since it's hardly of a different species.

Some may say that is an arbitrary point, as the foetus fulfils the same functions as that of a parasite, it is merely of the same species.

Originally Posted by Gamzee

I would never tell a woman, or anyone else, what they can and cannot do with their own body.

But you would allow her to dismember a helpless, innocent person's body. Argument makes sense.

Originally Posted by mattj

But you would allow her to dismember a helpless, innocent person's body. Argument makes sense.

So something that is not capable of thought is a "person?"

First one doesn't look much like a person to me. Looks more like this egg I ate two days ago.

Originally Posted by mattj

But you would allow her to dismember a helpless, innocent person's body. Argument makes sense.

yeah sure, who am I to say whether or not you should be allowed to dismember the bodies of helpless and innocent creatures? We do it all the time. Tastes delicious.



what makes a fetus more of a person than that cow was? It's even less sentient!

Originally Posted by Great White North

It IS rather a black and white issue. You either consider the fetus a person or you do not.

Usually this would involve when life begins. And well, that's a whole other debate unto itself.

Really I'd rather see abortion done for actual life threatening reasons as it would be more dignified if you ask me. Yes being pregnant and then afterward is hard enough but still.

And Andross, I don't think you know how exactly screwed up the current foster care system is. Reforming it to giving troubled kids as well as unwanted kids a new life would do wonders for a country as well as other countries.

Originally Posted by Nox

And Andross, I don't think you know how exactly screwed up the current foster care system is. Reforming it to giving troubled kids as well as unwanted kids a new life would do wonders for a country as well as other countries.

Of course I understand how screwed up it is, but it's obviously not something that's going to be fixed if we're simultaneously dumping more kids into the system while trying to fix it.

Make it so that kids--and not just babies and/or little white girls alone--are actually being adopted, first, and then we can argue about what you're proposing.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

- 5th Amendment United States Constitution.

The constitution applies to citizens of the United States of America. You are not a citizen of anything until you have had a birth certificate and have been born already. without such requirements you have no rights what so ever and may be removed/killed for whatever reason.

It's a woman's body and she can do whatever she wants with it. Even if I was against it, I understand that it's none of my damn business. There are many reasons for it, and against it. However, for the most part I'm for it. Accidents happen, condoms tear, rape happens, etc. Some may not be able to afford a child, or the process of having one. While an abortion isn't cheap, it certainly is cheaper than the process of having the kid to give up for adoption.

However, if two kids are goofing around and decide to have sex without a condom "just cuz", I wouldn't agree with it. However, I wouldn't stop them because it's their right. There's no time to worry about the hypothetical "but the baby could be Jesus" bull♥♥♥♥ when the lives of people that are already living matter more.

I volunteer at Planned Parenthood often and the flak that I get from the brain dead protesters is hilarious, by the way. The ♥♥♥♥ they like to show people on posters is far more gruesome than what they're protesting against. For example, we have one guy that covers plastic baby dolls in fake blood and shoves them on pitchforks and holds up posters of dead babies (not aborted fetus', mind you, actual pictures of dead babies) and yells out of a bullhorn all day.

In my opinion, the protesters are far much worse than an abortion could ever be. Also, notice how most of the pro-life people are men?

Originally Posted by shadow of Majora

The constitution applies to citizens of the United States of America. You are not a citizen of anything until you have had a birth certificate and have been born already. without such requirements you have no rights what so ever and may be removed/killed for whatever reason.

uh, well, I'm almost certain that you can't just kill anybody, regardless of their citizenship status. Also, I'm pretty sure the United States Constitution applies to all people within the United States; again, regardless of citizenship status.

Originally Posted by mattj

But you would allow her to dismember a helpless, innocent person's body. Argument makes sense.

I see neither dismemberment nor body.

Argument makes sense.


IS THIS BETTER AZRAELBLACK?

Originally Posted by shadow of Majora

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

- 5th Amendment United States Constitution.

The constitution applies to citizens of the United States of America. You are not a citizen of anything until you have had a birth certificate and have been born already. without such requirements you have no rights what so ever and may be removed/killed for whatever reason.

That's a cool argument bro.

I guess when I go to the US I can legally get murdered in the streets since I don't have citizenship.

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Ika Musume

uh, well, I'm almost certain that you can't just kill anybody, regardless of their citizenship status. Also, I'm pretty sure the United States Constitution applies to all people within the United States; again, regardless of citizenship status.

This brings to mind an anomaly in the legal system.

In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that a fetus is not a person and thus has no rights (Actually, not until the child has fully emerged from his mother's womb).

Yet at the same time if a woman is pregnant and the father dies, her unborn child will get a share of the inheritance as if it were an already born individual. We are also willing to sue someone for murder if she has a miscarriage due to injury caused by someone else.

This implies either that the child is a person being denied rights, a non-person with no rights but being treated as if it does, or the child is a person when it is convenient for the legal system and not one when it is politically disadvantageous.

Originally Posted by Ika Musume

yeah sure, who am I to say whether or not you should be allowed to dismember the bodies of helpless and innocent creatures? We do it all the time. Tastes delicious.

what makes a fetus more of a person than that cow was? It's even less sentient!

You've successfully convinced me to take the abortion issue a step further and just support legalizing cannibalism.

Gives a whole new meaning to "costs and arm and a leg", no?

Originally Posted by Great White North

This implies either that the child is a person being denied rights, a non-person with no rights but being treated as if it does, or the child is a person when it is convenient for the legal system and not one when it is politically disadvantageous.

a bit of hypocrisy in the legal system, I agree.

Originally Posted by Cut Man

You've successfully convinced me to take the abortion issue a step further and just support legalizing cannibalism.

Gives a whole new meaning to "costs and arm and a leg", no?

tell me what human flesh tastes like. I hear it tastes like pork.

I have been strongly pro-choice with the circumstances that the abortion is made after careful consideration, and not for "♥♥♥♥s and giggles". Even barring the issue of whether or not a human fetus is sapient (which I believe it isn't, and therefore I believe that the mother has the overriding say on what to do), there's also the fact that, as Crash Man said earlier, there's the issue of what happens after birth. It's not as simple as "overhauling" the welfare system. In my opinion, if you have the money to not only pay for a woman's pregnancy, but also childbirth and raising the child to begin with, that money may as well go to help develop education and infrastructure for disadvantaged children who are actually alive and sapient in the poorer regions of Africa and the Middle East.

Or do we not care about "other" people?

Let's ignore the whole "Is a fetus a person" part of the debate, since that never goes anywhere.

I've a "new" one:

There is no situation, not a one, where it is expected that a person sacrifice their body for another. It doesn't matter if cutting off a toe would save lives, you're not expected to do so.

So, why is pregnancy different? That involves giving up your bodily autonomy and, without exaggeration, risking death in for the sake of another. Noble, perhaps, but hardly something that should be mandated by law, now is it?

I mean, imagine that one day someone from the government showed up at your door and strapped a collar around your neck. This collar would shock you at random intervals. If you take it off, then someone else dies, and you go to jail for murder.

Would you stand for that?


Edit: Oh, and tell me, pro-life people here, where do you stand on laws currently in effect in some states that make miscarriages illegal? I'm genuinely curious.

I had a friend who on Facebook started raving about how abortion is murder and how you're a bad person if you do it, even if it's a life or death situation for the mother. And that it's the woman's own fault for getting knocked up in the first place.

I removed her from my friend list.

Originally Posted by Ika Musume

yeah sure, who am I to say whether or not you should be allowed to dismember the bodies of helpless and innocent creatures? We do it all the time. Tastes delicious.



what makes a fetus more of a person than that cow was? It's even less sentient!

Well, many people who support abortion think killing puppies is evil.
To me a fetus has the same sentience that a puppy does.
So... according to my moral POV its cruel to kill a fetus, there's no reason to kill an innocent puppy, they do nothing but being a( sometimes annoying) responsibility.
the fetus its a living creature you would kill for a most of the time a very silly reason, laziness to raise the kid you made cause' unprotected intercourse its very cool.
Also, the fetus is a member of your species, it's family, why kill family?
If I were a pregnant woman who didn't want the baby I would just give birth to he/she and send her/him to an adoption center.

Killing the fetus/potential human being is not necessary, really, we don't eat fetuses, nor they are threat to us, quite the opposite actually.
My mind tells me I must not kill a creature I won't eat or won't hurt me.

I would only agree with aborting the child if the woman is in serious danger and its a known fact that the baby won't survive.
The phrase above demonstrates the instance in which the fetus is a potential threat that won't survive even if the supposed birth happens.

To me a fetus has the same sentience that a puppy does.

yeah... an unborn puppy.

Jokes aside, it either does or it doesn't. This is not a matter of opinion.

laziness to raise the kid you made cause' unprotected intercourse its very cool.

Sometimes "protection" fails. Sometimes women are raped. Sometimes a woman doesn't want to subject both herself and her child to an unfortunate life. Don't think abortions are only due to laziness.

I would only agree with aborting the child if the woman is in serious danger and its a known fact that the baby won't survive.

What if the woman won't die but the child will survive?